Author Topic: Lets Mine the Sun!  (Read 5951 times)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Lets Mine the Sun!
« on: 12/02/2016 12:09 pm »
Go really big or go home! :)

EDIT:  The author speculates that the dip in light from Tabby's star might be from a type 2 civilization harvesting matter and energy from their star by zapping the star with giant lasers or other energy emitters to cause it to burp matter for collection at the poles with all sorts of side benefits.

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/star-lifting-to-mine-star-matter-could.html

This guy thinks really really really big. Stellar engineering big.

Throttle the suns fuel burn rate, mine heavy matter from it, keep the sun young for billions of extra years, harness it for extra energy production...Woohoo!

Ok so it's not very probable that this is going on at Tabby's Star or anywhere else; but if we manage to eliminate any hypothesis considered more likely then what remains? the more unlikely ideas.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2016 12:27 pm by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Online Eric Hedman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • The birthplace of the solid body electric guitar
  • Liked: 1953
  • Likes Given: 1142
Re: lets mine the sun!
« Reply #1 on: 12/02/2016 12:43 pm »
The easiest way to mine the Sun is to go there at night when it's not so hot. ;) ;D 8)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D ;D :-[

Offline AdrianW

  • Member
  • Posts: 83
  • Liked: 80
  • Likes Given: 262
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #2 on: 12/02/2016 12:48 pm »
but if we manage to eliminate any hypothesis considered more likely then what remains?

Most likely a measurement error, another explanation which has been missed, or a minus sign that was dropped from an equation. Although that Sherlock Holmes quote sounds good in theory, it doesn't work so well in practice.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #3 on: 12/02/2016 12:57 pm »
but if we manage to eliminate any hypothesis considered more likely then what remains?

Most likely a measurement error, another explanation which has been missed, or a minus sign that was dropped from an equation. Although that Sherlock Holmes quote sounds good in theory, it doesn't work so well in practice.
With all the scientists pounding away trying to come up with an explanation i am pretty sure that measurement error isn't an explanation at this point. However i didn't really post this to discuss the weirdness at Tabby's star. I posted it because the idea that a sun could be manipulated this particular way is new to me and is somewhat more probably that the other methods i have read about to wit:  picotech bot swarms using exotic matter, Dyson swarms (even though this uses a dyson swarm in a new way) or trillions of nano scale artificial wormholes.

This one is simpler in execution and i did not know that it was "possible" even to alter a star's mechanics and behavior by zapping it... 

Edit:  but if they could do this and still preferred living on planets rather than banks orbitals or other large space stations then they could easily pull out enough matter to make a few new planets to order.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2016 01:02 pm by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10351
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2430
  • Likes Given: 13606
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #4 on: 12/02/2016 05:29 pm »
With all the scientists pounding away trying to come up with an explanation i am pretty sure that measurement error isn't an explanation at this point. However i didn't really post this to discuss the weirdness at Tabby's star. I posted it because the idea that a sun could be manipulated this particular way is new to me and is somewhat more probably that the other methods i have read about to wit:  picotech bot swarms using exotic matter, Dyson swarms (even though this uses a dyson swarm in a new way) or trillions of nano scale artificial wormholes.

This one is simpler in execution and i did not know that it was "possible" even to alter a star's mechanics and behavior by zapping it... 

Edit:  but if they could do this and still preferred living on planets rather than banks orbitals or other large space stations then they could easily pull out enough matter to make a few new planets to order.
There were 2 books written in the 1970's that discuss "stellar engineering" by Adrian Berry.

In "The Next Ten Thousand Years" giant X ray lasers are used to shift a stars energy balance to force it to go nova, in order to mine minerals from it. A staggering feat of imagination at the time at the time given no one had built anything close to one and AFAIK only the DoD was considering something in the classified research area.

In "The Iron Sun" the idea of using multiple Bussard ramjets to "heard" Hydrogen over a big enough volume of space is outlined to create a sun big enough to implode into a Black hole, aiming at a transport system leading to a "White hole." I'm sure wheather the physics of this idea has now been discredited but it's certainly engineering on a large scale, although physics suggest once you get a high enough concentration over a large enough volume of space the process would be unstoppable.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #5 on: 12/02/2016 06:43 pm »
Interesting. But this is a little last drastic than making it go nova :)

As to black holes to white holes it depends on the cosmology model or at least the model of space geometry used to do the math for the black hole. but i think that WRT to such things i think the latest idea is to grab a virtual black hole and stretch the aperture out with exotic matter/energy.

Also there is at least one (and maybe two) legitimate professional astronomy teams looking for spectral tell tales that would be present if a black hole is actually a wormhole in disguise. This is important because primordial wormholes did not need exotic matter/energy to be created/continue to exist. they think that all such primordial wormholes throughout the universe in both space and time would connect to each other. if so i would then be problem of reaching the nearest primordial worm hole/black hole. these would most likely be galactic wormholes but might possibly be some that are stellar mass black hole size as well.
« Last Edit: 12/02/2016 06:58 pm by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10351
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2430
  • Likes Given: 13606
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #6 on: 12/02/2016 07:44 pm »
Interesting. But this is a little last drastic than making it go nova :)
Pretty much everything is.
Quote
Also there is at least one (and maybe two) legitimate professional astronomy teams looking for spectral tell tales that would be present if a black hole is actually a wormhole in disguise. This is important because primordial wormholes did not need exotic matter/energy to be created/continue to exist.
Something to keep in mind if you were trying to make one on your own. It can be done with the ordinary stuff.
Quote
they think that all such primordial wormholes throughout the universe in both space and time would connect to each other. if so i would then be problem of reaching the nearest primordial worm hole/black hole. these would most likely be galactic wormholes but might possibly be some that are stellar mass black hole size as well.
Been a long time since I read anything on this but I thought all the "primordial" black holes were expected to have decayed to something the size of a nucleus or even of a Proton?

And of course while they might all be linked to each other how would you "steer" to a particular exit? I'm inclined to think you'd end up being split amongst the "white holes" with little bits ending up coming out of each.  :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #7 on: 12/02/2016 08:33 pm »
Primordial wormholes are expected to be tiny but if any were created before the Universe's inflationary stage ended they could potentially have been inflated too depending  upon their "species." some would be surrounded by strings with negative mass, others would be made of space which inflated, others still are a consequence of rotating kerr type black holes or certain other types of black hole species.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline LM13

  • Member
  • Posts: 90
  • Where the skies are so blue...
  • Liked: 59
  • Likes Given: 73
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #8 on: 12/02/2016 09:27 pm »

There were 2 books written in the 1970's that discuss "stellar engineering" by Adrian Berry.

In "The Next Ten Thousand Years" giant X ray lasers are used to shift a stars energy balance to force it to go nova, in order to mine minerals from it. A staggering feat of imagination at the time at the time given no one had built anything close to one and AFAIK only the DoD was considering something in the classified research area.

In "The Iron Sun" the idea of using multiple Bussard ramjets to "heard" Hydrogen over a big enough volume of space is outlined to create a sun big enough to implode into a Black hole, aiming at a transport system leading to a "White hole." I'm sure wheather the physics of this idea has now been discredited but it's certainly engineering on a large scale, although physics suggest once you get a high enough concentration over a large enough volume of space the process would be unstoppable.

Stephen Baxter also makes reference to the idea in "The Time Ships," with his race of "Morlocks" creating a Dyson Shell by using giant magnets (IIRC) to scoop up matter from the sun to use as building material. 

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #9 on: 12/02/2016 09:47 pm »
but if we manage to eliminate any hypothesis considered more likely then what remains?
Most likely a measurement error, another explanation which has been missed, or a minus sign that was dropped from an equation. Although that Sherlock Holmes quote sounds good in theory, it doesn't work so well in practice.

when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

Yeah I noticed that too. It does not work at all. The impossible are usually more probable than the highly improbable. You have probably carefully defined the highly improbable if you feel you can do math on it. Impossible things happen because you misdefined them to begin with. And you can't possibly enumerate all the well defined impossible things. It was probably hard enough doing the math for the well defined improbable thing.

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #10 on: 12/02/2016 09:50 pm »
This guy is usually interesting:


Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #11 on: 12/02/2016 10:40 pm »

when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

Yeah I noticed that too. It does not work at all. The impossible are usually more probable than the highly improbable. You have probably carefully defined the highly improbable if you feel you can do math on it. Impossible things happen because you misdefined them to begin with. And you can't possibly enumerate all the well defined impossible things. It was probably hard enough doing the math for the well defined improbable thing.
In another sense any thing not forbidden is compulsory. :) (not in the Orwellian sense, of course)
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #12 on: 12/02/2016 10:47 pm »
This guy is usually interesting:


really good stuff. Thanks!
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #13 on: 12/03/2016 10:19 pm »
and then, magically, this appeared out of the aether:  http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/research-suggests-blackhole-or-wormhole.html

Black holes or wormholes might not spaghettifi something or someone falling into a black hole.

But this is not the only way that I have read:  a person can survive a wormhole passage if the the "funnel" side wall curvature is large enough and the throat length is short. If the throat length is long and or the funnel gradient is large or both tidal forces will destroy what ever falls into the funnel.

also; if the event horizon is destroyed or otherwise absent a person can survive with no tidal spaghettification Roche limit issues.

Side note:  There are peer reviewed papers on theoretical ways to destroy the event horizon of a back hole and turn it into a wormhole. The first time i saw the idea it was particularly bad bit of trekno-babble that bugged me so much i researched it. It turned out that there were actual papers on it outside of what i thought was bad trek writing. and it work pretty much as portrayed in the star trek episode. you zap the horizon with energy in a certain set of parameters, pattern and energy level.

When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Phil Stooke

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1354
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1424
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #14 on: 12/05/2016 03:41 am »
"also; if the event horizon is destroyed or otherwise absent a person can survive with no tidal spaghettification Roche limit issues. "

OK... but you go first.  I'll wait here.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #15 on: 12/05/2016 03:49 am »
oops! i meant if the funnel curve is very gradual... kind of the opposite of large gradient probably. what that means is the "aperture" has to be 10s to 100s of kilometers across and the tunnel has to be short or star gate like.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Lets Mine the Sun!
« Reply #16 on: 12/07/2016 06:33 am »
compared to the fuel and energy output and raw matter available in stars the planetary core is a dying ember. And there is no thermalnuclear fusion going on in the core of a planet as far as i know.

A sun has so much hydrogen fuel that if it were to mix completely over time as happens with m dwarfs its could last longer than the projected lifespan of the universe. and there is enough matter in a star you could extract many many many planets worth of mass from it and it wouldn't even so much as flicker. E.G; during the birth and young history of stars most eat several gas giants, even super giants and who knows how many earths , super earths and smaller planets.therefore you could take them out again mass wise and the sun wouldn't notice. as for energy the sun already emits massive amounts of hydrogen other nuclei and electrons in the solar wind; not to mention thermal energy x rays and gamma rays. if all the power radiated by the sun were applied directly to the earth it would turn the earth into plasma or at least melt the whole thing.

that should give you an idea of the raw power of the sun compared to the earth's core. It's not that you couldn't tap thermal energy from the molten core; we could. in fact i think either Green Land or Iceland just drilled a three mile hole for steam power or is about to. but the power of the sun dwarfs it and besides there are several other reasons for eventually trying this trick on the sun. Its definitely not a near term project though. But eventually we may be able to do it. maybe.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0