Author Topic: Cull of Shuttle skillset threatens efficiency and safety risks - DeCastro  (Read 8494 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

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Offline Jason Sole

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He's more impressive than Shannon now I've read both his interviews. Amazing quotes.

Offline stealthyplains

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Initially misread title as 'Cult of Shuttle skillset threatens efficiency and safety risks' and think it would be more appropriate.

DeCastro just brushes off the risk of additional Shuttle losses as a solved problem, which is a bit staggering.  Foam losses continued post-Columbia and NASA was clearly terrified of losing another shuttle after RTF.  Continued operation of an aging fleet does not increase safety margins.

DeCastro's ability to ignore Shuttle's political effects in terms of preventing development of alternative vehicles capable of supplanting it (ie EELVs) is also a bit staggering.  Back when it was actually an appropriate time to replace Shuttle, Shuttle alternatives were viewed politically as threats to Shuttle.  Only a string of extravagant failed attempts at Shuttle successors were permitted.  Now that time has run out, further Shuttle manifest extension would further delay alternatives but DeCastro ignores this.

DeCastro's complaint about the loss of the skilled contractor workforce needed to maintain the Shuttle begs the question: are their skills relevant to anything besides maintaining the Shuttle?  Does it matter if we lose a workforce specialized for a program that will not be revisited any time soon?

His note about the TLC that went into the orbiters reinforces the above point.  Extraordinary continuing maintenance needs are not a good thing.


Offline Seattle Dave

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Great article, and I'm going to fall for the bait below.


DeCastro just brushes off the risk of additional Shuttle losses as a solved problem, which is a bit staggering.  Foam losses continued post-Columbia and NASA was clearly terrified of losing another shuttle after RTF.  Continued operation of an aging fleet does not increase safety margins.


So you attempt to pull up Mr DeCastro, who is clearly extreemly qualified to speak on these issues, but then highlight your basic lack of knowledge by saying "foam losses continued post-Columbia".

Foam losses always happen. The mitigation was of suitcase sized foam losses which brought down Columbia. The foam losses they had later were tiny, not only in size, but in mass.

You needed to do a bit more reading before making such an ill-thought comment.

Offline Paul Howard

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Very refreshing to read such honesty. A notably change to the "oh, we had another WDR, but we aren't telling you why", as seen with the companies some people on here blindly cheerlead.

It's all been predicted, the premature end of shuttle and a reliance on Russia = whoops.

Reliance on new companies with no experience would lead to secrecy = whoops.

Let's hope the other prediction isn't fulfilled.

stealthyplains's wild comment on foam loss will be easily dealt with by someone else, as I can't respect someone who doesn't respect a man who's got to read such a stupid internet comment.

Offline Jason1701

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Has NASA had a "high level of efficiency" with respect to anything about manned spaceflight?

Loss of the Shuttle skillset is a blow only to a vision of mankind's future that hinges upon the government operating its own launch vehicle for its own missions, necessarily at a low flight rate.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2011 05:47 am by Jason1701 »

Offline Lars_J

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DeCastro's ability to ignore Shuttle's political effects in terms of preventing development of alternative vehicles capable of supplanting it (ie EELVs) is also a bit staggering.  Back when it was actually an appropriate time to replace Shuttle, Shuttle alternatives were viewed politically as threats to Shuttle.  Only a string of extravagant failed attempts at Shuttle successors were permitted.  Now that time has run out, further Shuttle manifest extension would further delay alternatives but DeCastro ignores this.

This is unfortunately true. (that Shuttle's existence prevented alternatives from being developed) Shuttle extension would only have pushed the current situation further down the line.

Offline Launch Fan

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Great to see some reality, as opposed to win the future soundbytes.

Offline Lars_J

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It certainly is reality - from the USA (United Space Alliance) perspective. They have so much to be proud of. But they are hardly an unbiased observer of the shuttle program. (are any of us?)

Offline AS-503

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STS-107 (Columbia) was NOT an ISS re-supply mission.

Remember, Columbia was too heavy "in the rear end" to effectively fly an ISS mission. Thus STS-107 was a science mission.

Still, the point of LOC/LOM remains.


Offline DavisSTS

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Great article!
« Last Edit: 09/02/2011 06:45 am by Andy USA »

Offline wechose

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It is true that Decastro  article contains nothing that many here have not already said but i suppose he gets more attention because he has a high profile.
the loss of most of those who worked on the Shuttle goes beyond a loss of skillset.most STS workers loved their job and done their all within their power to make the Astronauts safe,who will ever forget the closeout crew holding up the cards before STS-135 launch?
they and all who worked on the STS are going to be impossible to replace :'(
they had the right stuff and i know if i somehow had a seat on a STS-150 ;) i would feel as safe as in my Mammy's womb with the teams who launched the post Columbia flights! :)

Please to some Folks delay criticising Shuttle,many People are still mourning all it was or tried to be,many are already missing all the faces from the NTV Pressers  :(
it is so easy to condemn those who kept a machine with many design flaws flying.
I prefer to salute and thank them
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana.

Offline Nascent Ascent

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DeCastro's ability to ignore Shuttle's political effects in terms of preventing development of alternative vehicles capable of supplanting it (ie EELVs) is also a bit staggering.  Back when it was actually an appropriate time to replace Shuttle, Shuttle alternatives were viewed politically as threats to Shuttle.  Only a string of extravagant failed attempts at Shuttle successors were permitted.  Now that time has run out, further Shuttle manifest extension would further delay alternatives but DeCastro ignores this.

This is unfortunately true. (that Shuttle's existence prevented alternatives from being developed) Shuttle extension would only have pushed the current situation further down the line.


Well, if this is true then it's a sorry state of affairs for this country. 

I mean responsible families who rely on their family car don't trash their current vehicle without first planning or acquiring a replacement.  They don't wait until Monday morning when they have to go to work and finally realize that they better start saving up and thinking about getting a new car. And now in the meantime they're stuck relying on their neighbor (who may or may not be reliable or friendly).

If our government and agencies can't provide this basic level of planning and foresight then I'm sorry, they are worthless.

Offline Terry Rocket

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Love the picture of the engineer with her "I love my space shuttle" photo!

Offline john smith 19

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I mean responsible families who rely on their family car don't trash their current vehicle without first planning or acquiring a replacement.  They don't wait until Monday morning when they have to go to work and finally realize that they better start saving up and thinking about getting a new car. And now in the meantime they're stuck relying on their neighbor (who may or may not be reliable or friendly).

If our government and agencies can't provide this basic level of planning and foresight then I'm sorry, they are worthless.

That's a little unfair to NASA.

Think of NASA like a guy who gets an inheritance and spends it on a nice shiny new top of the line car for his family.

5 Yrs later. Still looking great, smooth ride etc great to polish it up and cruise round in it.
10 yrs later. Still looking looking good, ride etc but it is starting to be a bit worn inside. But the cost of getting a replacement has *ballooned* (and it was not cheap when he bought it) and besides, it's still pretty nice.
20 yrs later. Still looking looking good, and some people say the ride's a bit harsh compared to other vehicles but a replacement is even more expensive and even if he could understand the finance agreements he can't pay them *and* meet his mechanics bills (the only guy in town who he trusts), along with the increased gas and oil it now swallows.
30 yrs later. The mechanic has retired (5 yrs ago he was the only mechanic *left* who knew how to work on this model) and his grandson can't find any more parts on eBay.

For various reasons the man has put *no* money aside to buy a replacement.

This is the the practical demonstration of the Augustine's Commission apparently mild comment about NASA operating a launch system or developing a launch system, but not do both.

Changing the status quo is *always* the hard option. If it had been accepted that it *had* to change (these are 1st generation refurbishable launch vehicles. The equivalent of the Bell Aircobra still being in service in the 1970s) and STS would not last for ever there might have been a bit more urgency in finding a replacement that would meet NASA's unique requirements (whatever they happen to be) in an *affordable* manner and who knows even be flying by now.

The Shuttle programme  did not *have* to end this way. But it looks like it will.  :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Stardust9906

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Remember, Columbia was too heavy "in the rear end" to effectively fly an ISS mission.


Columbia was due to fly STS-118 to the ISS as its next mission after STS-107.

Offline Nascent Ascent

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I mean responsible families who rely on their family car don't trash their current vehicle without first planning or acquiring a replacement.  They don't wait until Monday morning when they have to go to work and finally realize that they better start saving up and thinking about getting a new car. And now in the meantime they're stuck relying on their neighbor (who may or may not be reliable or friendly).

If our government and agencies can't provide this basic level of planning and foresight then I'm sorry, they are worthless.

That's a little unfair to NASA......

Actually, my criticism was aimed more at our government and politicians.  NASA doesn't set the budget.  It's up the politicians to provide a clear and stable goal and funding so that NASA can deliver.  Yeah, NASA has problems that need to be addressed but they get jerked around on a yearly basis - the money's there, the money's gone.  With this kind of funding uncertainty it's amazing anything gets done at all.

Offline JohnFornaro

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The only thing I have to add about foam loss, is that spraying the ET with foam is a rig, and has always been a rig.  My assertion here is supported by the fact that pieces are always shed, and that altho a statistical analysis of the current piece size is certainly favorable, the statistical analysis does not and can not include the Murphy factor of an unforseen future mistake in foam application, or worse, a mistake in some other, unrelated, are of that launch system.  The recent loss of Soyuz is a case in point, and our shuttle fleet never has been exempt from this problem.

As to the idea that Mr. DeCastro "brushes off" risk; this characterization is symptomatic of a fundamental lack of understanding on the part of the poster. 

And this: "[The] wild comment on foam loss will be easily dealt with by someone else, as I can't respect someone who doesn't respect a man who's got to read such a stupid internet comment."  Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet, but this sounded a bit like Bilbo Baggins, on his hundred and eleventh birthday party: "I know half of you as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve".  I kinda didn't get it.  But hey.

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Responsible families who rely on their family car don't trash their current vehicle without first planning or acquiring a replacement.

No they don't, do they.  At the same time, NASA is only partly responsible.  There's Congress, of course.  And Presidents Bush and Obama.

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Think of NASA like a guy who gets an inheritance and spends it on a nice shiny new top of the line car for his family.

A bit better analogy.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Martin FL

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Fantastic article.

"I worry more about the loss of the critical NASA personnel who are skilled in the planning, training, and operation of Human Space Flight.

“Without something to operate, it is highly likely that NASA will lose its core ‘operations’ capability and will have a difficult time rebuilding that capability. The probable loss of skills in NASA will manifest itself in a costly and slow return to the current level of efficiency and safety."

Is a very important quote from him.

Offline Jim

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Fantastic article.

"I worry more about the loss of the critical NASA personnel who are skilled in the planning, training, and operation of Human Space Flight.

“Without something to operate, it is highly likely that NASA will lose its core ‘operations’ capability and will have a difficult time rebuilding that capability. The probable loss of skills in NASA will manifest itself in a costly and slow return to the current level of efficiency and safety."

Is a very important quote from him.

This was the crux of my thread "Shuttle skill Retention" which would be better labeled "Human Space Flight skill Retention"
I was going to point out that difference between SLS and the MPCV is that one saves jobs an the other saves skills. I guess that is too controversial for some people.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2011 05:42 pm by Jim »

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