Author Topic: President faces a Kennedy decision on space  (Read 18129 times)

Offline daver

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President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« on: 06/23/2009 09:44 pm »
COMMENTARY
By Jay Barbree   MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31496353/

Clip from commentary
  “Must have an astronaut escape system,” one insisted.  “Can’t have another Challenger.”

“Got it,” assured another, pointing to the drawing of a rocket escape tower. “This baby’s computer will boost the living to safety in a microsecond — do it from the moment of ignition.”

“Must fly a low trajectory so the crew can survive anywhere along the way,” offered a third.

“Right. Low profile all the way out.”

“Delta 4 and Atlas 5 can’t do that. Right?”

“Right. Their flight profiles are too high.”

“This has got to be the safest rocket ever flown.” 

“How about 1-in-3,000 odds?”

“Great. The space shuttle is about 1 in 75, right?

“Or less.”

“And Delta 4 and Atlas 5?”

“About a third, if that.”

Online robertross

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #1 on: 06/23/2009 10:22 pm »
Another great source of disinformation...

Offline Danny Dot

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #2 on: 06/23/2009 10:48 pm »
Another great source of disinformation...

I posted this reply:

I retired from NASA in 2006 as a Crew Survival Engineer.  The comments about the Atlas and Delta flying too high are a myth I fought for two years before I retired.  The only trajectories we, NASA, ever had that were too high were the ones straight out of the user guides at the time.  Within 24 hours of being asked, Lockheed lowered the Atlas trajectory and Boeing lowered the Deltas.  I see my formermanagers at NASA are still using this myth on why they didn't pick the Atlas or Delta.  I don't blame MSNBC for this mis-information.  I blame my former managers.

Danny Deger
Danny Deger

Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #3 on: 06/24/2009 03:09 am »
Wow. Just read the entire article. Talk about ignoring the facts on Ares I, Delta IV, and Atlas V.

As you said, robertross -- "A great source of disinformation."

I love the fact that you can't make a comment about that article. It's just there as fact.

(insert sigh here)

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #4 on: 06/24/2009 03:58 am »
Wow, that's a surprisingly biased opinion piece!  Didn't know Barbree was such an Ares I fan!
« Last Edit: 06/24/2009 04:13 am by vt_hokie »

Offline mfoster

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #5 on: 06/24/2009 03:58 am »
Wow. Just read the entire article. Talk about ignoring the facts on Ares I, Delta IV, and Atlas V.

As you said, robertross -- "A great source of disinformation."

I love the fact that you can't make a comment about that article. It's just there as fact.

(insert sigh here)


To reply go to the end of the story, under discuss story

Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #6 on: 06/24/2009 04:18 am »
Wow. Just read the entire article. Talk about ignoring the facts on Ares I, Delta IV, and Atlas V.

As you said, robertross -- "A great source of disinformation."

I love the fact that you can't make a comment about that article. It's just there as fact.

(insert sigh here)


To reply go to the end of the story, under discuss story

That doesn't appear for me at all. Hmmm.... apparently my computer hates me. I'll try tomorrow on a different computer.

Offline loomy

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #7 on: 06/24/2009 06:27 am »
This article isn't pro-constellation up until the very end.  His point about ula potentially doing everything isn't pro-constellation to me either, it's a valid (but overstated I think) monopoly concern.

Quote
What worries this spaceflight vet is that history might be repeating itself. My nightmares are rerunning the Apollo 1 fire.

The tragedy set America’s space program back for more than a year — time for the White House and Apollo contractor North American Aviation to open their eyes.

They put O’Malley in charge, and the first thing he did was run off the retired colonels and generals and political payoff hires and replaced them with Mercury and Gemini veterans. In 18 months, three astronauts orbited the moon aboard Apollo 8. 

To me that reads like a put-down of the constellation people vs the shuttle people, actually

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #8 on: 06/24/2009 12:50 pm »
My take on a  "Kennedy decision" is somewhat more general than this biased MSNBC article.  To me, the President is being asked whether or not we should emphasize HSF beyond flags and footprints.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline William Barton

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #9 on: 06/24/2009 01:28 pm »
I have to admit, the article seems like alternate history, basically a science fiction story. Nothing that I remember from the time (I was a teenager) or have read since suggests Kennedy was a space visionary of any sort. If anything, he was the opposite, and only cared about finding some way the US could outdo the Soviets and show the world what we could do. My recollection is, one of the seriously considered alternatives to Apollo was "desalinization." If anyone was a visionary in that administration, it was Lyndon Johnson (whose biggest flaw was that he had too many visions, combined with a "Texas ego" not unlike a more recent president).

Offline psloss

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #10 on: 06/24/2009 01:50 pm »
I have to admit, the article seems like alternate history, basically a science fiction story. Nothing that I remember from the time (I was a teenager) or have read since suggests Kennedy was a space visionary of any sort. If anything, he was the opposite, and only cared about finding some way the US could outdo the Soviets and show the world what we could do.
It would fit with the pattern of mythologizing aspects of JFK's administration after he was assassinated.

Offline meiza

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #11 on: 06/24/2009 04:12 pm »
I had to double check I wasn't reading the Onion.
I'm having a laugh here.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #12 on: 06/24/2009 04:29 pm »
As a counter to Barbree's cheerleading, Buzz offers this:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4322647.html
See especially page 2, "Ares 3." I think we've already covered this, but the room needs freshening.

Online Blackstar

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #13 on: 06/24/2009 06:23 pm »
It's a very badly-written article with a lot of ridiculous claims.  Generally, a journalist has to be careful when putting things in quotation marks.  They usually imply that someone is being directly quoted.  In this case, he's obviously using them to paraphrase what he _thinks_ happened.  It's a big difference, and rather sloppy.

His assertions about Kennedy are really off-base (Kennedy was no space buff), and he dramatically oversimplifies what happened with Apollo 1.  All of this reads like one of Grampa Simpson's stories about the war--history as it should have happened, as I want to remember it.

But using Buzz Aldrin to refute him is no better.  Buzz has now become a parody of himself.  He's the William Shatner of astronauts.  He just recorded a rap song with a guy who produced a series of adult films and is banned from several countries.  It's just bizarre.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #14 on: 06/24/2009 06:55 pm »
That is really wierd about Buzz Aldrin.  [Edit:  05-30-12 Later thinking.  But hey.  Why can't he make a rap song?  He reaches out to a different audience.]

I agree with Aldrin on the use of liquid fueled rockets.  But I disagree with the notion of abandoning the Moon in preference for Mars.  I don't like the "gap" at all.  We should not be without manned launch capability, period.

And could someone summarize for me why COTS is a bad idea?

I think Aldrin is misguided to think that the Chinese will accept his suggestion to become a team player. 

I know I'm over my head here, but I would suggest an Ares 2+4, where the cargo rocket is bigger than the crew rocket, but the crew rocket could also carry hi-tech cargo.  Maybe someone could gently discuss the ins and outs of Ares 1+5, without too much of a side track.  I don't mean to introduce a new design or , gasp, hijack the thread.

I don't understand why Aldrin thinks landing on Phobos is so important.  And his idea about one-way tickets to Mars...  If I could afford to, there's a couple of people I would buy tickets for!
« Last Edit: 05/30/2012 02:59 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.


Offline William Barton

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #16 on: 06/24/2009 07:44 pm »
"Its cancellation would set in motion a virtual rejection of the entire culture of NASA and the Huntsville rocketeers." Well, not the ones behind DIRECT, or the ones who presumably like Not-Shuttle-C. Not to mention the ones who might even like EELV. Are Griffen & Co. an "entire culture?" I doubt it.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #17 on: 06/24/2009 07:49 pm »
But using Buzz Aldrin to refute him is no better.  Buzz has now become a parody of himself.  He's the William Shatner of astronauts . . .

Thanks for the update. Buzz is quirky -- who knew? I'm more interested in the technical merits, or lack thereof, of his proposal anyway, or any that counter the original article.

Offline meiza

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #18 on: 06/24/2009 08:26 pm »
Rand Simberg and Clark Lindsey weigh in as well:

http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=19924 [scroll to late evening update]

http://www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=13355

The media is almost totally clueless about NASA and Constellation.
Except this outfit, Nasaspaceflight.com. Keep up the good work, Chris and guys!

Online Blackstar

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Re: President faces a Kennedy decision on space
« Reply #19 on: 06/24/2009 09:20 pm »
Thanks for the update. Buzz is quirky

And not taken seriously.  At this point he's entertainment, not a voice that anybody in power listens to.

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