. Can it be made cheap enough, routine enough? If so, then I have no doubt you could find 1 million people who would love to be part of a growing, vibrant Martian colonization effort. But that's a big if, and we might not solve it this century.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 11/16/2014 05:45 pm. Can it be made cheap enough, routine enough? If so, then I have no doubt you could find 1 million people who would love to be part of a growing, vibrant Martian colonization effort. But that's a big if, and we might not solve it this century.It's far too early to say what will happen by the end of the century.Keep in mind in 1914 the fastest air speed record was 134.4 mph 54 years later they did a flyby of the moon.
Quote from: Eer on 11/15/2014 02:59 pm... they'll cast off the yolk of colonialism, just like humans always do....I hope the white supremacists don't take over Mars that easily.
... they'll cast off the yolk of colonialism, just like humans always do....
Quote from: enkarha on 11/15/2014 11:21 pmQuote from: Eer on 11/15/2014 02:59 pm... they'll cast off the yolk of colonialism, just like humans always do....I hope the white supremacists don't take over Mars that easily.Ova course not! It might bring them out of their shells, though, and leave them all bumin with confidence ...
Quote from: RanulfC on 11/14/2014 09:10 pmIn answer to the thread title? I wouldn't. I'm going to go by and drop off folks like Robotbeat but then I'm back on the circut Eath-Venus-Mars with a two week stop-over at "home" (Venus) before we head off again RandyWhich of your objections to the feasibility of a Mars colony don't apply to a flying Venus colony? It seems to me that the issues you raise about moving more than about 100 people would apply just as much--if not more so--to Venus.
In answer to the thread title? I wouldn't. I'm going to go by and drop off folks like Robotbeat but then I'm back on the circut Eath-Venus-Mars with a two week stop-over at "home" (Venus) before we head off again Randy
But to pretend that it will be awful and undesirable is short-sighted and unimaginative.
Sure there is time spent in a tin can, but for people who can dream there is your spacious underground home opening out of the side of a Martian hill into your personal five acres of green house paradise. A vibrant mall of interesting people moving, working and playing just on the other side of your front door in the common tunnel that connects to still further streets. It is the ultimate in urban planning; the solitude and peace of Hobbiton with the amenities and culture of a major metropolis.
It just takes someone to build it. You don't get there overnight but put enough brains together and fascination things will happen, things that start more people dreaming. The trouble being that you absolutely need to start with a critical mass of people and resources so they have enough leisure time and tools to develop locally sourced building techniques.
Quote from: LM13 on 11/16/2014 03:24 pmQuote from: RanulfC on 11/14/2014 09:10 pmIn answer to the thread title? I wouldn't. I'm going to go by and drop off folks like Robotbeat but then I'm back on the circut Eath-Venus-Mars with a two week stop-over at "home" (Venus) before we head off again RandyWhich of your objections to the feasibility of a Mars colony don't apply to a flying Venus colony? It seems to me that the issues you raise about moving more than about 100 people would apply just as much--if not more so--to Venus. And here I was thinking no one was going to actually catch that, good job! Also note that I don't exactly have objections to the "feasibility" of a colony on Mars, I have objections to the idea that there are a great number of people actually willing to move to Mars with almost no "incentive" except those that have been given so far.There's no money to be made there, no "better-life" to be had, no infrastructure, pretty much no anything that has been successfully used to base a "colony" on here on Earth. "Just because" its Mars is no answer and pretty much neither is anything so far discussed. The reasons given have all been personal and that works for the individual only.DanielW, I don't mean to specifially "beat-up" your post but it happens to embody a majority of the "issues" I have with most people who 'dream' of colonizing Mars so apoligies in advance Quote from: DanielW on 11/19/2014 08:51 pmBut to pretend that it will be awful and undesirable is short-sighted and unimaginative.Not as much as some seem to think, it's actually stating facts which in these type of discussions is VERY hard to come by.QuoteSure there is time spent in a tin can, but for people who can dream there is your spacious underground home opening out of the side of a Martian hill into your personal five acres of green house paradise. A vibrant mall of interesting people moving, working and playing just on the other side of your front door in the common tunnel that connects to still further streets. It is the ultimate in urban planning; the solitude and peace of Hobbiton with the amenities and culture of a major metropolis.And if you work hard enough that MIGHT be possible for your grandchildren, maybe The problem is we've BEEN "dreaming" this stuff for decades. When are you all going to settle down and work on getting from the "tin-can" to there instead of skipping the inconvienent parts?The other problem is that this is HARD on Earth. On Mars? Starting from scratch? "Why" you would go is one thing, HOW you'd do it is by far the more important and pertinent question no one seems to want to ask or answer.QuoteIt just takes someone to build it. You don't get there overnight but put enough brains together and fascination things will happen, things that start more people dreaming. The trouble being that you absolutely need to start with a critical mass of people and resources so they have enough leisure time and tools to develop locally sourced building techniques.Close but you (and anyone really with this kind of "dream") need to do this critical part NOW, not when you get there and surivial takes up all your time and energy.People have this idea that "because its Mars" there will be something magical and different than if you replace "Mars" with any other destination. And everyone should be aware of how difficult it is to do something as simple as 'colonizing' the surface of the ocean or Antarctica despite the avialability of resources, power and people here on Earth. I wish it WAS only a matter of some "critical mass" of people being reached but it is simply not that simple. The Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in space is simply not going to have the massive advantages that "colonies" on Earth have enjoyed and all the disadvantages of a hostile environment on top of the other disadvantages. Dreaming is nice, but it doesn't get you anywhere. Sooner or later you have to plan and work within reality to make those 'dreams' come true.It's not "nihilism" to point out these issues, its simply acknowledging the truth that humans have colonized almost ever corner of the Earth because its rather easy compared to anywhere in space. There is hardly any enthusiasm for colonizing the "last" corners on Earth either but far likely MORE people would be convinced to do so given any of the 'reasons' given for colonizing Mars**Mars "technically" has the whole "making mankind a multi-planet species" argument to itself however that same argument applies to just about anywhere in the Inner Solar System and probably cheaper and easier as well.Randy
Quote from: LM13 on 11/16/2014 03:24 pmQuote from: RanulfC on 11/14/2014 09:10 pmIn answer to the thread title? I wouldn't. I'm going to go by and drop off folks like Robotbeat but then I'm back on the circut Eath-Venus-Mars with a two week stop-over at "home" (Venus) before we head off again RandyWhich of your objections to the feasibility of a Mars colony don't apply to a flying Venus colony? It seems to me that the issues you raise about moving more than about 100 people would apply just as much--if not more so--to Venus. And here I was thinking no one was going to actually catch that, good job! Also note that I don't exactly have objections to the "feasibility" of a colony on Mars, I have objections to the idea that there are a great number of people actually willing to move to Mars with almost no "incentive" except those that have been given so far.There's no money to be made there, no "better-life" to be had, no infrastructure
"Just because" its Mars is no answer and pretty much neither is anything so far discussed. The reasons given have all been personal and that works for the individual only.
...The problem is we've BEEN "dreaming" this stuff for decades. When are you all going to settle down and work on getting from the "tin-can" to there instead of skipping the inconvienent parts?
The other problem is that this is HARD on Earth. On Mars? Starting from scratch?
"Why" you would go is one thing, HOW you'd do it is by far the more important and pertinent question no one seems to want to ask or answer.
QuoteIt just takes someone to build it. You don't get there overnight but put enough brains together and fascination things will happen, things that start more people dreaming. The trouble being that you absolutely need to start with a critical mass of people and resources so they have enough leisure time and tools to develop locally sourced building techniques.Close but you (and anyone really with this kind of "dream") need to do this critical part NOW, not when you get there and surivial takes up all your time and energy.
People have this idea that "because its Mars" there will be something magical and different than if you replace "Mars" with any other destination. And everyone should be aware of how difficult it is to do something as simple as 'colonizing' the surface of the ocean or Antarctica despite the avialability of resources, power and people here on Earth.
The Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in space is simply not going to have the massive advantages that "colonies" on Earth have enjoyed and all the disadvantages of a hostile environment on top of the other disadvantages.
...*Mars "technically" has the whole "making mankind a multi-planet species" argument to itself however that same argument applies to just about anywhere in the Inner Solar System and probably cheaper and easier as well.
Quote from: RanulfC on 11/20/2014 08:58 pmQuote from: LM13 on 11/16/2014 03:24 pmQuote from: RanulfC on 11/14/2014 09:10 pmIn answer to the thread title? I wouldn't. I'm going to go by and drop off folks like Robotbeat but then I'm back on the circut Eath-Venus-Mars with a two week stop-over at "home" (Venus) before we head off again RandyWhich of your objections to the feasibility of a Mars colony don't apply to a flying Venus colony? It seems to me that the issues you raise about moving more than about 100 people would apply just as much--if not more so--to Venus. And here I was thinking no one was going to actually catch that, good job! Also note that I don't exactly have objections to the "feasibility" of a colony on Mars, I have objections to the idea that there are a great number of people actually willing to move to Mars with almost no "incentive" except those that have been given so far.There's no money to be made there, no "better-life" to be had, no infrastructureFalse. The whole surface is mapped in far greater detail than the Earth was until a few decades ago, and there's communication (and, in a pinch, navigation) infrastructure already built.
I would say nothing of any real important on Mars has been mapped any significant detail- that makes it useful for any potential Mars setter.
I think that no where on Earth has required government exploration in order to settle. American explored the West to find what was of value to young nation's newly acquired territory. Main hope in terms of setters was ensuring other nations weren't formed which would be problem related to the United States. And Antarctica was explored by government but not for purpose of increasing commerce/settlements.I would say exploring space is a theory more than a plan.And I would say it's something government does only because it's citizens may or may not want it done.Or Jefferson wasn't pushed by the public to explore territories in the West, nor has there been any publicpush to explore Antarctica. Or both were things decided by government that they decided they needed to do.
Quote from: RanulfC on 11/20/2014 08:58 pmQuote from: LM13 on 11/16/2014 03:24 pmQuote from: RanulfC"Just because" its Mars is no answer and pretty much neither is anything so far discussed. The reasons given have all been personal and that works for the individual only.You don't get it, do you? Personal reasons are all that's necessary, if those people are numerous and willful about it.
Quote from: LM13 on 11/16/2014 03:24 pmQuote from: RanulfC"Just because" its Mars is no answer and pretty much neither is anything so far discussed. The reasons given have all been personal and that works for the individual only.You don't get it, do you? Personal reasons are all that's necessary, if those people are numerous and willful about it.
Quote from: RanulfC"Just because" its Mars is no answer and pretty much neither is anything so far discussed. The reasons given have all been personal and that works for the individual only.You don't get it, do you? Personal reasons are all that's necessary, if those people are numerous and willful about it.