Author Topic: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS  (Read 53227 times)

Offline Robotbeat

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NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« on: 11/08/2011 05:45 pm »
Yeah, I get the feeling that NDS may actually be a pacing item for some companies (SpaceX in particular). Wouldn't it be odd to have the rest of the spacecraft ready only to be waiting on NDS to be finalized, built, qualified, and launched to ISS? This is why I think we've heard talk of using CBM in the interim for commercial crew (though CBM instead of NDS makes lifeboat duty rather more difficult...).

If they all use NDS (which I think is the plan for all CC vehicles and even Orion), then they can't dock to ISS until there's an NDS there! If NASA doesn't get around to doing it until 2017, then that's kind of a problem.
« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 06:02 pm by Robotbeat »
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Online oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #1 on: 11/08/2011 06:49 pm »
Per a NASA overview in May 2011 the first NDS would be delivered to ISS in late 2014 and the second mid 2016. That is if there are no slips. A single NDS would restrict usage of CC to only one vehicle at a time, no crew overlap.

http://dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Documents/AIAA_ATS_NDS-IDSS_Overview_Draft1.pdf

The dates are on page 18.

Offline erioladastra

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #2 on: 11/09/2011 01:30 am »
Per a NASA overview in May 2011 the first NDS would be delivered to ISS in late 2014 and the second mid 2016. That is if there are no slips. A single NDS would restrict usage of CC to only one vehicle at a time, no crew overlap.

http://dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Documents/AIAA_ATS_NDS-IDSS_Overview_Draft1.pdf

The dates are on page 18.


Secon d one is planned for 2015

Offline erioladastra

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #3 on: 11/09/2011 01:32 am »
Yeah, I get the feeling that NDS may actually be a pacing item for some companies (SpaceX in particular). Wouldn't it be odd to have the rest of the spacecraft ready only to be waiting on NDS to be finalized, built, qualified, and launched to ISS? This is why I think we've heard talk of using CBM in the interim for commercial crew (though CBM instead of NDS makes lifeboat duty rather more difficult...).

If they all use NDS (which I think is the plan for all CC vehicles and even Orion), then they can't dock to ISS until there's an NDS there! If NASA doesn't get around to doing it until 2017, then that's kind of a problem.

You may have heard using APAS in the interim but I don't think any CC were thinking of berthing.

Offline joek

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #4 on: 11/09/2011 02:50 am »
Per CCP requirements, it is NDS; no other option has been specified or allowed AFAIK. Last CCP requirements plan had "First unit delivery planned for PMA2/Node 2 forward late 2014;  Second PMA outfitted 2015/2016" (maybe some slip on the second?).

Also per CCP requirements, the Common Communications for Visiting Vehicles (C2V2) "will be incorporated into CCS R13 as part of the Sept 2014 on-orbit SW transition", and "first on-orbit utilization date for C2V2 is March 1, 2015

In short, as of Nov 2011, earliest availability for both NDS and C2CV2 on-station (assuming no further slips) appears to be Q1-2015.  That would appear to set earliest availability of CCT flights to ISS  (?).

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #5 on: 11/09/2011 03:35 am »
Pretty sad that there's nothing the commercial crew companies can do about getting earlier than the 2015 date, since it's all essentially in NASA's hands for the NDS and common communications. I suppose they most likely wouldn't be ready to 2015 anyways, but still is a shame.

As far as the CBM for CC... I think it was just someone from SpaceX looking into it, not something they were aggressively pursuing. I'd bet it'd be only an interim solution anyway even if they did berth.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Lars_J

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #6 on: 11/09/2011 06:02 am »
Look, the NDS is not going to be *that* different from APAS. If a visiting vehicle can be equipped with a NDS, it should be able to be fitted with an APAS in a pinch.

Yes, there are different tolerances that have to be taken into account (APAS requires more closing force, right?), but it should be solvable.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #7 on: 11/09/2011 06:05 am »
BTW, related to this topic (perhaps it should have its own?)...

I was happy to see that 23 astronauts (from Apollo to STS) have signed a letter to Congress urging them to support Commercial Crew:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1586
« Last Edit: 11/09/2011 06:15 am by Lars_J »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #8 on: 11/09/2011 01:49 pm »
I think APAS and NDS are supposed to be compatible to an extent sufficient for emergencies, etc, right?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #9 on: 11/09/2011 02:23 pm »
I think APAS and NDS are supposed to be compatible to an extent sufficient for emergencies, etc, right?

No, they are not compatible.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #10 on: 11/09/2011 02:53 pm »
I think APAS and NDS are supposed to be compatible to an extent sufficient for emergencies, etc, right?

No, they are not compatible.
You sound pretty sure about that, but you don't give a source. I know what wikipedia says, too, but the documents describing IDSS give the impression there is a level of compatibility, even if it means you can't, e.g., have good electrical or fluid connections, you can have at least a physical docking (even though IDSS/NDS use magnetic latching instead of APAS's mechanical latching, though IDSS/NDS are compatible with mechanical latching).

There is at least a limited amount of compatibility:
"IDSS compatible docking system hooks can achieve structural mate
with APAS hard capture systems"
and
"The IDSS IDD has established reserved areas for the APAS sensors
and pushers in order to allow an APAS HCS to structurally mate with
IDSS compatible systems."
http://dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Meetings/TIM_(Nov-17-2010)/NDS_TIM_presentation.pdf


There does seem to be considerable attention given to working towards a level of compatibility between APAS and IDSS/NDS, even though that certainly won't be full compatibility.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2011 02:57 pm by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline baldusi

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #11 on: 11/09/2011 03:10 pm »
Why would you want any degree of compatibility, if there's just one port, and it's going to be retired/adapted?

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #12 on: 11/09/2011 03:29 pm »
Why would you want any degree of compatibility, if there's just one port, and it's going to be retired/adapted?
Well, you'd have to ask the IDSS designers that, wouldn't you?

There are a few reasons I can think of, though: There are two other APAS ports in orbit right now besides the one on ISS. Also, the NDS adapter hasn't been finished and may not even be finalized in its design. It could slip. In fact, I believe the NDS/IDSS delays caused Constellation to switch to using APAS for Orion-to-ISS (though obviously that's old info), though NDS remained for lunar Orion. It's possible the same situation may happen with commercial crew, though I hope not. So, there are 3 nations with the ability to use or significant experience with APAS (Russia, US, and China), but nobody has fielded NDS/IDSS, yet.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2011 03:31 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline baldusi

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #13 on: 11/09/2011 03:33 pm »
Why would you want any degree of compatibility, if there's just one port, and it's going to be retired/adapted?
Well, you'd have to ask the IDSS designers that, wouldn't you?

There are a few reasons I can think of, though: There are two other APAS ports in orbit right now besides the one on ISS...
Excuse my ignorance. Where are the other two on orbit?

Offline Lars_J

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #14 on: 11/09/2011 03:36 pm »
Why would you want any degree of compatibility, if there's just one port, and it's going to be retired/adapted?
Well, you'd have to ask the IDSS designers that, wouldn't you?

There are a few reasons I can think of, though: There are two other APAS ports in orbit right now besides the one on ISS...
Excuse my ignorance. Where are the other two on orbit?

I presume he means the Chinese module and spacecraft.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #15 on: 11/09/2011 03:37 pm »
Why would you want any degree of compatibility, if there's just one port, and it's going to be retired/adapted?
Well, you'd have to ask the IDSS designers that, wouldn't you?

There are a few reasons I can think of, though: There are two other APAS ports in orbit right now besides the one on ISS...
Excuse my ignorance. Where are the other two on orbit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong_1
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhou_8
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #16 on: 11/09/2011 03:38 pm »
Just remember that Hubble had to have a specially produced LIDS capture ring created for eventual deorbit rather than just buying an APAS ring, and it did not need any electrical connection (ie data or power)

edit:

Quote
The IDSS Soft Capture System (SCS)
•Ring is wider than APAS; petals are removable for larger crew passageway
•Must accommodate both magnetic and mechanical soft capture latches
http://www.dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Documents/AIAA_ATS_NDS-IDSS_Overview_Draft1.pdf
« Last Edit: 11/09/2011 03:46 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #17 on: 11/09/2011 03:49 pm »
Just remember that Hubble had to have a specially produced LIDS capture ring created for eventual deorbit rather than just buying an APAS ring, and it did not need any electrical connection (ie data or power)
Well, yeah, doesn't make sense to put it on new stuff in orbit, but that's what we've got now with ISS and with the Chinese.

Imagine a problem develops with the Chinese mini-space station or spacecraft while taikonauts are on board, with a very similar docking adapter, and commercial crew capability being already developed in just a few short years, and you have to explain to the world that the Chinese are stuck and you can't do anything about it just because you didn't put forth any effort in making the two have any level of compatibility. And you can't really blame the Chinese, since IDSS/NDS is just finally now being finished. So, it makes sense to spend a little effort now to allow some at least limited level of compatibility, which is exactly what IDSS/NDS has.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline baldusi

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #18 on: 11/09/2011 03:51 pm »
Why would you want any degree of compatibility, if there's just one port, and it's going to be retired/adapted?
Well, you'd have to ask the IDSS designers that, wouldn't you?

There are a few reasons I can think of, though: There are two other APAS ports in orbit right now besides the one on ISS...
Excuse my ignorance. Where are the other two on orbit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong_1
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhou_8
They specifically said they weren't compatible with ISS, but where with the IDSS. The NDS allows both hard docking and sofr docking. I guess the Chinese port is only hard. And based off APAS, but not APAS compatible.

Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: NASA Docking System (NDS) for ISS
« Reply #19 on: 11/09/2011 04:18 pm »
An international standard docking system is needed, for safty and global compatibility.

Size 1) Stick with the small size as is for now ( tunnel diameter )
Size 2) Upgrade it to CBM size opening ( for crew and cargo )
Size 3) 6 to 7 foot opening for future craft, stations
« Last Edit: 11/09/2011 04:23 pm by RocketmanUS »

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