NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles => Orbital ATK - Antares/Cygnus Mission Section => Topic started by: arachnitect on 12/31/2012 09:35 PM

Title: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: arachnitect on 12/31/2012 09:35 PM
Idle Speculation (why should SpaceX threads have all the fun?):

Antares first stage is in same family as Zenit-3SL; dimensions are same or smaller.

Antares is integrated horizontally and erected at pad as required by Sea Launch operations.

Antares is advertised as a "Delta II" class vehicle but doesn't have a polar orbit capability (required for many or most potential Antares payloads). There are difficulties associated with all west coast launch site options; Vandenberg is crowded, Kodiak has logistical and environmental constraints, and Kwajalein is worse than Kodiak. Sea Launch would offer all inclinations and a minor performance boost for low inclination orbits (or GSO if Orbital wants to develop that capability for Antares). Sea Launch would probably appreciate spreading their fixed costs over more launches.

I'm just curious how much effort would be required to adapt Odyssey and Sea Launch Commander. New launch mount and strongback would be needed, probably a HIF at Long Beach as well.

There's a million reasons this wouldn't work; what are the technical showstoppers?
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Prober on 01/03/2013 06:19 PM
Idle Speculation (why should SpaceX threads have all the fun?):

Antares first stage is in same family as Zenit-3SL; dimensions are same or smaller.

Antares is integrated horizontally and erected at pad as required by Sea Launch operations.

Antares is advertised as a "Delta II" class vehicle but doesn't have a polar orbit capability (required for many or most potential Antares payloads). There are difficulties associated with all west coast launch site options; Vandenberg is crowded, Kodiak has logistical and environmental constraints, and Kwajalein is worse than Kodiak. Sea Launch would offer all inclinations and a minor performance boost for low inclination orbits (or GSO if Orbital wants to develop that capability for Antares). Sea Launch would probably appreciate spreading their fixed costs over more launches.

I'm just curious how much effort would be required to adapt Odyssey and Sea Launch Commander. New launch mount and strongback would be needed, probably a HIF at Long Beach as well.

There's a million reasons this wouldn't work; what are the technical showstoppers?

I got a better one to have "fun" with.....talks fail and Russia is forced to move all its launches to "Russia".

Ukraine or Orbital or both teamed up talk about using the Zenit launch pads of Land launch.  Only difference is using Aerojet engines.

How is that for a fun idea?
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Jim on 01/03/2013 06:32 PM

1.  Antares is integrated horizontally and erected at pad as required by Sea Launch operations.

2.  Antares is advertised as a "Delta II" class vehicle but doesn't have a polar orbit capability (required for many or most potential Antares payloads).

3.  There are difficulties associated with all west coast launch site options; Vandenberg is crowded,

4.   Sea Launch would probably appreciate spreading their fixed costs over more launches.


1.  The solid motor second stage may cause issues

2.  Sun synchronous orbits are obtainable from WFF>

3.  Not really. There are places for a pad. 

4. There isn't really available slots for other launches.   Also, doubt the pad and LCC could be dual compatible.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Jim on 01/03/2013 06:34 PM

1.  I got a better one to have "fun" with.....talks fail and Russia is forced to move all its launches to "Russia".

Ukraine or Orbital or both teamed up talk about using the Zenit launch pads of Land launch. 

3. Only difference is using Aerojet engines.


1.  There is nothing that would force the move

2.  No benefit to Orbital or Ukraine. 

3.  There are more differences

Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Prober on 01/04/2013 03:36 AM

1.  I got a better one to have "fun" with.....talks fail and Russia is forced to move all its launches to "Russia".

Ukraine or Orbital or both teamed up talk about using the Zenit launch pads of Land launch. 

3. Only difference is using Aerojet engines.


1.  There is nothing that would force the move

2.  No benefit to Orbital or Ukraine. 

3.  There are more differences



Kazakhstan mulls ending Russia's cosmodrome lease


http://news.yahoo.com/kazakhstan-mulls-ending-russias-cosmodrome-lease-075818121.html
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Jim on 01/04/2013 01:14 PM

1.  I got a better one to have "fun" with.....talks fail and Russia is forced to move all its launches to "Russia".

Ukraine or Orbital or both teamed up talk about using the Zenit launch pads of Land launch. 

3. Only difference is using Aerojet engines.


1.  There is nothing that would force the move

2.  No benefit to Orbital or Ukraine. 

3.  There are more differences



Kazakhstan mulls ending Russia's cosmodrome lease


And how does that change what I said.

That doesn't affect Sealaunch
The Land launch pads won't be available to them
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Prober on 01/04/2013 02:27 PM

1.  I got a better one to have "fun" with.....talks fail and Russia is forced to move all its launches to "Russia".

Ukraine or Orbital or both teamed up talk about using the Zenit launch pads of Land launch. 

3. Only difference is using Aerojet engines.


1.  There is nothing that would force the move

2.  No benefit to Orbital or Ukraine. 

3.  There are more differences



Kazakhstan mulls ending Russia's cosmodrome lease


And how does that change what I said.

That doesn't affect Sealaunch
The Land launch pads won't be available to them

That is up to the Kazakhstan gov to say.   Note I didn't say SeaLaunch, I said Landlaunch.

SeaLaunch will prob go with a pure Russian rocket in the future.  Sure that might be a fight Russia vs Ukraine.  This IMHO, is only a few years off.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Jim on 01/04/2013 03:06 PM

That is up to the Kazakhstan gov to say.   Note I didn't say SeaLaunch, I said Landlaunch.

SeaLaunch will prob go with a pure Russian rocket in the future.  Sure that might be a fight Russia vs Ukraine.  This IMHO, is only a few years off.

Same company.  And no, Sealaunch is not going to a pure Russian rocket.  The whole concept is built around the Zenit.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: strangequark on 01/04/2013 04:45 PM
That is up to the Kazakhstan gov to say.   Note I didn't say SeaLaunch, I said Landlaunch.

SeaLaunch will prob go with a pure Russian rocket in the future.  Sure that might be a fight Russia vs Ukraine.  This IMHO, is only a few years off.

The Ukrainians are more open to selling their tech, and generally easier to work with. Russia has been getting more conservative about exporting their technology, and more nationalistic, in recent years. As documented in the Antares thread, this would be the reason using the RD-0124 on Antares fell through. Russia is no longer the cash-starved post-Soviet rump state of the mid-90s that joined with US firms on ILS and RD-180.

To stay on topic, Orbital has an existing presence at Vandenburg, Kodiak, and Kwaj. There's not much benefit to trying to tackle SeaLaunch versus a new pad at one of those three sites.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/04/2013 06:35 PM
If Kazakhstan ended the Cosmodrome lease, Russia may just invade them. Seriously, they may.

More likely, they'll exert geopolitical influence (and their sizable intelligence capability) to keep the lease going.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Lars_J on 01/04/2013 07:06 PM
If Kazakhstan ended the Cosmodrome lease, Russia may just invade them. Seriously, they may.

More likely, they'll exert geopolitical influence (and their sizable intelligence capability) to keep the lease going.

Or maybe they would finally get their butts in gear and finish Vostochny Cosmodrome. (which they have started constructing, finally)
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: krytek on 01/05/2013 10:44 PM
If Kazakhstan ended the Cosmodrome lease, Russia may just invade them. Seriously, they may.

More likely, they'll exert geopolitical influence (and their sizable intelligence capability) to keep the lease going.

Kazakhstan isn't Georgia. Look it up on a map, bad idea.
As above, there are other places to build a cosmodrome.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2013 12:34 AM
If Kazakhstan ended the Cosmodrome lease, Russia may just invade them. Seriously, they may.

More likely, they'll exert geopolitical influence (and their sizable intelligence capability) to keep the lease going.

Kazakhstan isn't Georgia. Look it up on a map, bad idea.
As above, there are other places to build a cosmodrome.
Touche, I had somehow got it in my mind that the Cosmodrome was right on the border with Russia. Definitely isn't, and invasion isn't anything like a realistic option at this point in history. But the other methods of influence are still very much in play.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: arachnitect on 01/06/2013 01:08 AM

1.  Antares is integrated horizontally and erected at pad as required by Sea Launch operations.

2.  Antares is advertised as a "Delta II" class vehicle but doesn't have a polar orbit capability (required for many or most potential Antares payloads).

3.  There are difficulties associated with all west coast launch site options; Vandenberg is crowded,

4.   Sea Launch would probably appreciate spreading their fixed costs over more launches.


1.  The solid motor second stage may cause issues

2.  Sun synchronous orbits are obtainable from WFF>

3.  Not really. There are places for a pad. 

4. There isn't really available slots for other launches.   Also, doubt the pad and LCC could be dual compatible.

I didn't know SSO were available from Wallops. If there isn't a big performance penalty, we'd probably never see a west coast Anatares at all.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: zaitcev on 01/09/2013 12:47 AM
And no, Sealaunch is not going to a pure Russian rocket.
You think? Not if Mr. Lopota has anything to say about it. The only little problem that's holding up his plans is the lack of actual rocket factory under his control (his own factory is too small). How do you know he's not repurposing an abandoned warehouse right as we type this?
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Prober on 01/09/2013 11:57 AM
And no, Sealaunch is not going to a pure Russian rocket.
You think? Not if Mr. Lopota has anything to say about it. The only little problem that's holding up his plans is the lack of actual rocket factory under his control (his own factory is too small). How do you know he's not repurposing an abandoned warehouse right as we type this?

Which firm does Mr. Lopota work for?   Don't you think Ukraine as a Sea Launch Partner will be upset if all russian rocket is used?
 
 
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: baldusi on 01/09/2013 03:04 PM
Mr. Lapota is Energia's president. The current owner of Sea Launch. And they have been dreaming of replacing the Zenit with their own Energia-K. Une interesting point is, that for those dimensions I've seen, they were using 4.1m instead of Zenit's 3.9m. Since That's Proton's core size, and Krushinev is moving to the Angara's 2.9m, he might have hopes of buying the used tooling?
In any case, 4.1m is the maximum you can transport by train if you have exclusive use of the tracks (you can't have another train coming the other way).
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Prober on 01/10/2013 11:55 AM
Mr. Lapota is Energia's president. The current owner of Sea Launch. And they have been dreaming of replacing the Zenit with their own Energia-K. Une interesting point is, that for those dimensions I've seen, they were using 4.1m instead of Zenit's 3.9m. Since That's Proton's core size, and Krushinev is moving to the Angara's 2.9m, he might have hopes of buying the used tooling?
In any case, 4.1m is the maximum you can transport by train if you have exclusive use of the tracks (you can't have another train coming the other way).

interesting, kinda thought one version of Angara was planned for SeaLaunch.
Title: Re: Antares on Sea Launch (Armchair Engineering)
Post by: Jim on 01/10/2013 12:59 PM

interesting, kinda thought one version of Angara was planned for SeaLaunch.

Wrong contractor