Author Topic: China to have new rockets  (Read 229024 times)

Offline Lars-J

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #400 on: 07/06/2017 06:39 AM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019

Are those images to scale? Because the CZ-8A looks pretty much like a CZ-7 without boosters, and since the boosters provide roughly 2/3rds of the liftoff thrust, how could the CZ-8A even lift off?

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #401 on: 07/06/2017 07:13 AM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019

Are those images to scale? Because the CZ-8A looks pretty much like a CZ-7 without boosters, and since the boosters provide roughly 2/3rds of the liftoff thrust, how could the CZ-8A even lift off?

See my earlier post:

As promised earlier, here are some of the new things found in this paper(*) written by people at CALT:

(*) Qin X D, Long L H, Rong Y.
The achievement and future of China space transportation system [J]
Journal of Deep Space Exploration, 2016, 3 (4): 315-322


- The often talked about CZ-8 is what some people once called the "CZ-722S" (and called CZ-822S here), using the existing CZ-7 first stage topped with the current hydrogen upper stage of the CZ-3 series as the 2nd stage. Two 120 t class, 2 meter diameter twin segment SRBs (thrust comparable with those on the Atlas V) are added to form the baseline version, capable of 4.5 tonnes to Sun-synchronous orbit (or 7.6 tonnes to LEO/2.5 tonnes to GTO). A "CZ-820" core only version can carries 3.0 tonnes to polar orbit.

I personally don't think it to be cheap for heavier polar orbit missions (though it reminds me of the "Taurus II-mini-Centaur" that Antonio Elias mentioned 10 years ago on this forum, way before Antares flies, with similar performance), given the LH2 upper stage, but maybe CALT can find enough missions to make it work. It will face fierce competition with SAST's CZ-6A (not mentioned in this paper) though.

- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

As mentioned by me some time ago, the 3.5 stages combination doesn't look attractive to me in terms of costs and reliability, but maybe that's the best the Chinese can do right now.....

- CZ-9's newest configuration ("CZ-934") seems to have 4 new 480 tonnes thrust twin chamber stage combustion RP-1 engines on a 10 meter diameter (some say 9.5) as the 1st stage, 4 boosters with 2 480 tonnes engines, 2 220 tonnes LH2 engines on 2nd stage (also 10 meters in diameter) and the existing CZ-5 upper LH2 stage as the 3rd stage. Performance were given as 140 t LEO/66 t GTO/50 t LTO/37 t MEO. Note however that the article also mentioned that the design is also comparable with large SRBs so the design is still far from frozen.....

- CALT is studying an 4 stage solid air launch rocket dropped from the Y-20 military transport jet, with capability of no less than 200 kg to 700 km high polar orbits.

- The name "YZ-3" has been confirmed for the SAST small sat upper stage that will fly on the CZ-2D and CZ-4 series, probably within this year.

CZ-8 = CZ-822S
CZ-8A = CZ-820
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #402 on: 07/06/2017 02:27 PM »
During Long March Commercial Launch Users Conference today, CGWIC introduced some new rockets
CZ-734 CBC configuration and low cost CZ-8A which will have its maiden flight on 2019

That would be called "CZ-732H" instead.  ;)
The paper that I translated 4 months earlier actually called it out, but got the picture wrong:

Quote
- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

This is actually somewhat of a surprise....which means that the Chinese are shifting away from the 2.25 m diameter rocket block. It might help somewhat with its cost, though given its capability is still 7 t GTO and that just half a day earlier some LSP did so with a 2-stage all kerolox rocket, it doesn't sound like a cheap solution at all.  :-\
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Online zhangmdev

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #403 on: 07/06/2017 04:35 PM »
Tri-cored CZ-7 lifting CZ-3A 3rd stage for just 7 ton GTO? A 3.35 m diameter 3-staged rocket taller than CZ-3B, almost as tall as Falcon 9 v1.1?

Why not just fill CZ-5 with dual-payload GTO missions and get over with?

Offline Lars-J

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #404 on: 07/06/2017 07:45 PM »
Quote
- The GTO bound CZ-7 versions are called "CZ-3D" and "CZ-3E" in this paper (though I have seen different names in other papers). The CZ-7 + CZ-3 LH2 stage version is the "CZ-3D", 7.0 tonnes to GTO/4.2 tonnes to lunar transfer orbit and 3.0 tonnes to navigation sats MEO. A "CZ-3E" with the CZ-7 plus a RP-1 3rd stage with a single YF-115 engine is also mentioned that can lift 5.2 tonnes to GTO.

(note however that the text paragraph calls the 1st stage as a "tri-core" configuration.....dunno if there's a mistake out there)

This is actually somewhat of a surprise....which means that the Chinese are shifting away from the 2.25 m diameter rocket block. It might help somewhat with its cost, though given its capability is still 7 t GTO and that just half a day earlier some LSP did so with a 2-stage all kerolox rocket, it doesn't sound like a cheap solution at all.  :-\

That tri-core looks a bit FH inspired. (FH obviously won't be the first tri-core to fly, I know).  ;) But they really do seem to be following a weirdly scattershot strategy with launch vehicles. Why so much overlapping capability with so many configurations? Is it just for redundancy? Or just seeing what works best, and only the best will survive?

Or is it launch site issues that force this? If they plan on flying most of these new LVs from Wenchang, I suppose it makes sense that all variants share a CZ-7 core stage.
« Last Edit: 07/06/2017 07:46 PM by Lars-J »

Offline GWH

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #405 on: 07/06/2017 08:18 PM »
That tri-core looks a bit FH inspired. (FH obviously won't be the first tri-core to fly, I know).  ;) But they really do seem to be following a weirdly scattershot strategy with launch vehicles. Why so much overlapping capability with so many configurations? Is it just for redundancy? Or just seeing what works best, and only the best will survive?

Or is it launch site issues that force this? If they plan on flying most of these new LVs from Wenchang, I suppose it makes sense that all variants share a CZ-7 core stage.

The tri-core makes a lot more sense to me than the current Long March 7 (LZ-7) with its 2 engine core and 4 single engine boosters.  Why produce the 2.25m core size when the 3.35m cores are common to the LZ-7 core and LZ-5 boosters.  I realize the 2.25m tooling is common to the Long March 3 (LZ-3), but still seems silly.

Add 1-3 sea level optimized YF-115's down the middle along with a slight core stretch and they could have start trying for booster reuse.
« Last Edit: 07/06/2017 09:30 PM by GWH »

Online zhangmdev

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #406 on: 07/07/2017 04:05 AM »

Why produce the 2.25m core size when the 3.35m cores are common to the LZ-7 core and LZ-5 boosters.  I realize the 2.25m tooling is common to the Long March 3 (LZ-3), but still seems silly.


The origin of CZ-7 is CZ-2F/H, where H means Change. The idea is to change the engine and propellant while keeping the basic design of CZ-2F. So there is stretched 2.25 m booster.

Cool image of booster sep test

http://imgur.com/OOcOeuv

Offline Lars-J

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #407 on: 07/07/2017 08:36 PM »
So is Wenchang the only launch site that will operate the new KeroLox based CZ-5/6/7/8 launchers? (yes I know the core stage of CZ-5 is hydrolox) Or will other launch sites be updated to launch the CZ-7 family?

Online zhangmdev

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #408 on: 07/07/2017 11:30 PM »
Any core with diameter larger than 3.35 m will be impossible to launch from inland launch sites because of restriction of railway transportation.  CZ-5 and CZ-7 is assembled in Tianjing, then shipped to Wenchang by  Yuanwang21 and 22.

https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/yuanwang/yuangwang21-22.html

I think it is possible to launch CZ-7 from those old sites if they really want that to happen, but so far I cannot find any new flash about such plan.

Offline smfarmer11

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #409 on: 07/08/2017 01:03 AM »
Can they do high inclination launches from Wenchang?

Online zhangmdev

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #410 on: 07/08/2017 01:15 AM »
http://money.163.com/16/0625/17/BQE1N94M00253B0H.html

Yes, that's in the news release. From Wenchang they can launch payload into SSO.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #411 on: 07/08/2017 03:23 AM »
Can they do high inclination launches from Wenchang?

They have some options... Here is an image I made showing which directions they can launch out of.
A) for GTO and low inclination
B) SSO/polar
C) higher inclination launches (like the current space station)

EDIT: Removed the question mark from C, based on the correction from Galactic Penguin SST:)
« Last Edit: 07/08/2017 04:46 AM by Lars-J »

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #412 on: 07/08/2017 04:16 AM »
Can they do high inclination launches from Wenchang?

They have some options... Here is an image I made showing which directions they can launch out of.
A) for GTO and low inclination (all CZ-5 and CZ-7 launches so far)
B) SSO/polar
C) depending on drop zones and Phillipine approval, they might be able to do higher inclination launches in this direction as well

Actually the CZ-7 flights go in the direction of C - remember that the Chinese space stations are in a 42 degree inclination orbit.  ;) The CZ-5 flights did flies towards A.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Moon Rabbit

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #413 on: 10/11/2017 06:22 AM »
hi everyone. i am new here. a non professional (absolutely no technical background...so do excuse me if i sometimes do not catch what is being said here ;D)  i have been doing some research on the CZ-9 (as an amateur rocketry enthusiast). Basically i am trying to find out the latest specifications for the CZ-9. The latest i have is attached in the two images below. They were retrieved from a website and it was indicated that the page was updated on 4 August 2016. The specs there seems to tally with what was posted by Galactic Penguin SST.

As promised earlier, here are some of the new things found in this paper(*) written by people at CALT:

- CZ-9's newest configuration ("CZ-934") seems to have 4 new 480 tonnes thrust twin chamber stage combustion RP-1 engines on a 10 meter diameter (some say 9.5) as the 1st stage, 4 boosters with 2 480 tonnes engines, 2 220 tonnes LH2 engines on 2nd stage (also 10 meters in diameter).....


another post by Lsquirrel, mentioned about the test on a LOX/kerosene engine for the CZ-9. The test date was 1 August 2016 so this would put it around the time of the specs i mentioned. But...the thrust for this test engine was 500 ton. The specs says a thrust of 480 ton (YF-480). Does that mean there is a newer specs?

The website from which i got the specs mentioned that the YF-480 (based of the RD-180) is a replacement for the cancelled YF-660. Btw, is it normal for the officials to give a designation to the engines (YF-480, YF-660 etc.) so early on in the development phase?

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA5MTQxODQ2MA==&mid=2649440048&idx=1&sn=3c6c23ca9d6e668d922aa9d89565619f&scene=23&srcid=0801SwBPU37Y12mlffVIA2e4#rd

8月1日,由我院负责研制的重型运载火箭500吨级液氧煤油发动机首次燃气发生器-涡轮泵联动试验取得成功,标志着该型发动机研制工作取得首个里程碑式胜利,为后续圆满完成关深阶段研制任务奠定了基础。

AAPLT: 500 tons LOX/Kero engine linkage test successfully for the first time

« Last Edit: 10/11/2017 06:33 AM by Moon Rabbit »
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #414 on: 10/11/2017 06:50 AM »
Yes, that does look like the latest information we have, based on the image below.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online zhangmdev

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #415 on: 10/11/2017 10:20 AM »
So basically the proposed CZ-9 design grows from 4 3+ meter boosters, 9 meter core, 2 stages (about a year ago) into 4 5+ meter boosters, 10+ meter core, 3 stages. For roughly the same performance? Interesting to see if this 6000+ ton monster grows any bigger.

Offline SmallKing

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #416 on: 10/12/2017 04:04 AM »
There are some discussions in the Chinese forum recently, now CZ-9 tends to the plan with LH2/LOX core stage and solid strap-on boosters due to the Shortage of funds in the near future. And YF220 may convert to staged combustion
http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=89476&extra=&page=7
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #417 on: 10/12/2017 04:52 AM »
So basically the proposed CZ-9 design grows from 4 3+ meter boosters, 9 meter core, 2 stages (about a year ago) into 4 5+ meter boosters, 10+ meter core, 3 stages. For roughly the same performance? Interesting to see if this 6000+ ton monster grows any bigger.

Note that the values given in the tables are only estimated values. The only values we can rely on are the ones in the image I posted.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2017 04:52 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline SmallKing

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #418 on: 10/12/2017 02:13 PM »
ChinaSpaceflight just reported CZ-9 10m S1 and 5m strap-on would use YF480s, S2 would use staged-combustion YF220s and 25 ton expander cycle LH2/LOX engines for S3
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #419 on: 10/13/2017 06:40 AM »
ChinaSpaceflight just reported CZ-9 10m S1 and 5m strap-on would use YF480s, S2 would use staged-combustion YF220s and 25 ton expander cycle LH2/LOX engines for S3

The boosters show four nozzles, but the text says 2xYF480, so the YF480 must be dual nozzle. The configuration is basically the same as shown previously except for some new information, like the diameters of the boosters and core. Their configuration is a bit complex! Four different stages and three different engines. By combining the boosters with the core and using a common engine in the upper stages, they could reduce that to three different stages and two different engines. Possible first stage configuration shown below. Diameter is about 12.7 m for the core. With the fairings its 15.8 m. Using common bulkhead and subcooled propellants, they could add legs and fins and make the stage reusable. With a 1 MN hydrolox engine, they could have five engines on the second stage and one engine on the third stage.

Total thrust of the first stage is 56.5 MN. If they could develop a single nozzle 6.3 MN engine instead of the dual nozzle 4.7 MN engine, they could use nine 6.3 MN of these engines instead (F-1 was 6.7 MN). Much simpler configuration. :-) I estimate engine diameter to be about 3.07 m. Scaling that up with Merlin 1D at 0.93 m diameter and Falcon 9 at 3.66 m, gives a vehicle diameter of 3.07*3.66/0.93 = 12.08 m, so a more compact stage without any fairings.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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