To me the vertical integration that helps is doing the spacecraft and the rocket.
Quote from: john smith 19 on 04/30/2014 10:15 amQuote from: Prober on 04/30/2014 04:35 amThink we missed it; everyone thinks ATK Solid Rocket motors But if you look at their web site, ATK is a manufacturer with many years of experience in many areas. So now its very possible Orbital ATK can one way or another manufacture the AJ-26 or a clone of it. The combined company could make the tankage, and the Cygnus. For the CRS contract maybe 90% content. Going to be very interesting to watch While I doubt that ATK has enough of the relevant experience to build and qualify a sophisticated large liquid-fueled rocket engine like NK33, they do have a liquid division--or at least they did. XCOR worked with ATK's liquids group (based out of somewhere in upstate NY IIRC) back 5-7yrs ago on the large LOX/Methane engine for NASA.So while I agree with your overall point (skepticism that ATK is going to all of the sudden start cranking-out NK-33 class staged combustion LOX/Kero engines anytime soon), I think you overstate your case on their lack of liquids capabilities.~JonI understand where you're coming from jon....think my point got lost with everyone. Let me try it again...ATK = manufacturing & propulsion expertise & CNC machines etc.Orbital = Electronics etc. real experience launching a 1970's era rocket engine. Each company has a "cash cow"That's what comes to the table for this project.Look at the AJ-26 Status = what's in stock then done.Management thinking = Wants to keep the investment in Antares flying....what to do?Clone the AJ-26.......Understand cloning isn't developingThe old name for "Clone" would be reverse engineering. Today its very possible to take cast hardware and "clone" a perfect copy. So any real development work isn't needed the toolsets handle it.For our interests the company would clone the AJ-26 and test the parts to make sure they are correct. So we are again talking "no development". The electronics can be purchased from Aerojet, or in house developed making the engine the companies own. The 70's era castings should be no problem to duplicate. Using the existing CNC equipment ATK has, or even investing in bargain used CNC equipment, the finished product should be of higher tolerances then the current inventory of AJ-26's.Finished costs could be very competitive.
Quote from: Prober on 04/30/2014 04:35 amThink we missed it; everyone thinks ATK Solid Rocket motors But if you look at their web site, ATK is a manufacturer with many years of experience in many areas. So now its very possible Orbital ATK can one way or another manufacture the AJ-26 or a clone of it. The combined company could make the tankage, and the Cygnus. For the CRS contract maybe 90% content. Going to be very interesting to watch While I doubt that ATK has enough of the relevant experience to build and qualify a sophisticated large liquid-fueled rocket engine like NK33, they do have a liquid division--or at least they did. XCOR worked with ATK's liquids group (based out of somewhere in upstate NY IIRC) back 5-7yrs ago on the large LOX/Methane engine for NASA.So while I agree with your overall point (skepticism that ATK is going to all of the sudden start cranking-out NK-33 class staged combustion LOX/Kero engines anytime soon), I think you overstate your case on their lack of liquids capabilities.~Jon
Think we missed it; everyone thinks ATK Solid Rocket motors But if you look at their web site, ATK is a manufacturer with many years of experience in many areas. So now its very possible Orbital ATK can one way or another manufacture the AJ-26 or a clone of it. The combined company could make the tankage, and the Cygnus. For the CRS contract maybe 90% content. Going to be very interesting to watch
I understand where you're coming from jon....think my point got lost with everyone. Let me try it again...ATK = manufacturing & propulsion expertise & CNC machines etc.Orbital = Electronics etc. real experience launching a 1970's era rocket engine. Each company has a "cash cow"That's what comes to the table for this project.Look at the AJ-26 Status = what's in stock then done.Management thinking = Wants to keep the investment in Antares flying....what to do?Clone the AJ-26.......Understand cloning isn't developingThe old name for "Clone" would be reverse engineering. Today its very possible to take cast hardware and "clone" a perfect copy. So any real development work isn't needed the toolsets handle it.For our interests the company would clone the AJ-26 and test the parts to make sure they are correct. So we are again talking "no development". The electronics can be purchased from Aerojet, or in house developed making the engine the companies own. The 70's era castings should be no problem to duplicate. Using the existing CNC equipment ATK has, or even investing in bargain used CNC equipment, the finished product should be of higher tolerances then the current inventory of AJ-26's.Finished costs could be very competitive.
Quote from: Prober on 04/30/2014 07:47 pmI understand where you're coming from jon....think my point got lost with everyone. Let me try it again...ATK = manufacturing & propulsion expertise & CNC machines etc.Orbital = Electronics etc. real experience launching a 1970's era rocket engine. Each company has a "cash cow"That's what comes to the table for this project.Look at the AJ-26 Status = what's in stock then done.Management thinking = Wants to keep the investment in Antares flying....what to do?Clone the AJ-26.......Understand cloning isn't developingThe old name for "Clone" would be reverse engineering. Today its very possible to take cast hardware and "clone" a perfect copy. So any real development work isn't needed the toolsets handle it.For our interests the company would clone the AJ-26 and test the parts to make sure they are correct. So we are again talking "no development". The electronics can be purchased from Aerojet, or in house developed making the engine the companies own. The 70's era castings should be no problem to duplicate. Using the existing CNC equipment ATK has, or even investing in bargain used CNC equipment, the finished product should be of higher tolerances then the current inventory of AJ-26's.Finished costs could be very competitive.Pretty sure this would be thoroughly illegal.
The vertical integration will certainly help them from a profitability standpoint. A more profitable company is a stronger company.Or as I look at it, a new space company has gobbled up an old space company
So this is later than I would have wanted it to go on, but my day jobs took up 14 hours of today and I want Chris G to concentrate on an article very much in his field. Not making excuses, but I know a lot of people think I do this as a full time job (I wish!)At the same time, this is too big a deal to leave the news to the forum, so I wrote an article. I had to cover the announcement, so did that in the opening paras, but we're about the space hardware here, so angled this with the current synergy they have with Antares and Stratolaunch.http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/04/orbital-atk-form-space-flight-super-group/
How so ....explain?Is the Russian government going to sue?
With one minor tweak, I totally agree. Why would SpaceX merge with anybody? (except Design / Program Associates, of course, but hey.)
Maybe a poll on whether or not launch prices will fall?
Annual revenue and cost synergies of $220-300 million are expected by 2016, consisting of $150-200 million of incremental annual revenue and $70-100 million of annual cost reductions. Citigroup acted as financial advisor...
Aerojet Rocketdyne is going to sit by and watch while another company clones their engine?
[ATK] do have a liquid division--or at least they did. XCOR worked with ATK's liquids group (based out of somewhere in upstate NY IIRC) back 5-7yrs ago on the large LOX/Methane engine for NASA.
Quote from: jongoff on 04/30/2014 02:39 pm[ATK] do have a liquid division--or at least they did. XCOR worked with ATK's liquids group (based out of somewhere in upstate NY IIRC) back 5-7yrs ago on the large LOX/Methane engine for NASA.I believe the only ATK group in NY is in Ronkonkoma: their Missile Products General Applied Science Laboratory (GASL).https://www.atk.com/locations/missile-products-ronkonkoma-n-y-2/
Quote from: notsorandom on 04/30/2014 08:27 pmAerojet Rocketdyne is going to sit by and watch while another company clones their engine?They have the RD-180 plus all the rest of Rocketdyne. Russia doesn't think there's any future in the NK-33 or they would manufacture it. They want everything switched over (from what I see) to the RD 191? The RD-180 is worthless to Russia as that launcher project got killed.
When it comes to primary space launch propulsion, Aerojet-Rocketdyne itself currently only manufactures RS-68 and RL-10. Only five or six of the former fly each year. New production of the latter hasn't happened in a few years, as I understand things. Nothing there to inspire the accountants I suspect.
hand brazed combustion chamber tubes can be true). An independent high performance LH2/LO2 engine mfg not captive to an LV mfg could have some interest from global customers.