Just in case anyone's interested in the contents of the table I did a quick translation. If anything's incorrect don't hesitate to blame me!
Instead of returning a sample to earth via small capsule what about to cislunar space. Use a Orion mission to pick it up, would allow for a larger sample.
Quote from: TrevorMonty on 11/18/2015 02:23 pmInstead of returning a sample to earth via small capsule what about to cislunar space. Use a Orion mission to pick it up, would allow for a larger sample.Actually, the sample would likely be smaller. While dispensing with the return capsule, now the spacecraft must carry much more fuel in order to slow down to enter orbit around the Moon. Direct Earth reentry is far more mass-efficient. Also the cost associated with using an SLS launch to send an Orion capsule to retrieve the sample is prohibitive.
JAXA expects CNES to share technical expertise and to render assistance in the following three research topics for MMX research and development phase; - Near-infrared Spectrometer (MacrOmega) - Flight Dynamics - Feasibility of the Small Lander to be equipped
JAXA and CNES Make and Sign Implementing Arrangement on Martian Moons Exploration (MMX)http://global.jaxa.jp/press/2017/04/20170410_cnes.htmlQuoteJAXA expects CNES to share technical expertise and to render assistance in the following three research topics for MMX research and development phase; - Near-infrared Spectrometer (MacrOmega) - Flight Dynamics - Feasibility of the Small Lander to be equipped
Solving the riddle of how Mars’ moons came to be will help us better understand how planets formed around our Sun and, in turn, around other stars,” said Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator for NASA’s science mission directorate. “International partnerships like this provide high-quality science with high-impact return.”“We’ll see the composition of the region from which MMX collects its sample,” said Thomas Statler, program scientist for MMX at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “This will help us better understand what we discover in the laboratory when the mission returns the sample to Earth for analysis.”
We might be able to study the Martian moons Phobos and Deimos a lot more closely in the coming decade. Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) has teamed up with Germany's and France's space agencies to send a spacecraft with a rover to the red planet's faithful companions. In fact, JAXA has just finalized its agreement to work with the German Aerospace Center (DLR) on the study-phase activities for its Martian Moons eXploration (MMX) mission.
The spacecraft will carry a German-French rover that will land on either Phobos or Deimos and explore the surface in detail for several months
"The world-first exploration of the Martian moons with a rover is a major technical challenge that we are tackling within the framework of our strong and proven partnership with Japan and France," says Pascale Ehrenfreund, Chair of the DLR Executive Board. "Together, we want to push the boundaries of what is technically feasible in robotic exploration and expand our knowledge about the origin of the solar system."
I still don't understand why such "low-hanging fruits" like Phobos and Deimos have been totally forgotten all these years by NASA/ESA?You could do Mars-science and asteroid science at the same location and take advantage of the existing orbiter network for data transmissions.There's also less risk with this mission compared to typical asteroid mission because of the pretty well known characteristics and existing surface mapping of those bodies from previous Mars missions.
So, only Japan, only now, is the only entity even planning such a mission.Why so...? (of course USSR/Russia had its try but...)
MMX 2021 animation:
Trying to calculate how close one has to get to either of the moons for a decent view; does anyone have any spreadsheets on calculating Martian orbits?
https://global.jaxa.jp/press/2020/09/20200910-2_e.html8K Camera on the Martian Moons eXploration (MMX) Spacecraft to Take Ultra High Definition Images of MarsSeptember 10, 2020 (JST)National Research & Development AgencyJapan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA)Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK)The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) and Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) have decided to jointly develop a “Super Hi-Vision Camera” that is capable of filming 4K and 8K images in space for JAXA’s Martian Moons eXploration (MMX) mission. This would be the first time in history that 8K ultra high definition images of Mars and its moons are taken in proximity. By combining the actual flight data of the MMX spacecraft and the images taken by the Super Hi-Vision Camera, the exploration of the MMX spacecraft around Mars and its moons (the Martian system), 300 million kilometers from the Earth, will be recreated.(Snip)
https://global.jaxa.jp/press/2020/09/20200910-2_e.html8K Camera on the Martian Moons eXploration (MMX) Spacecraft to Take Ultra High Definition Images of Mars
https://www.leonarddavid.com/japans-mission-to-the-red-planet-probing-the-mysterious-moons-of-mars/?fbclid=IwAR1kgNGqvws9aADZFUY71awj8mKTTiH4kAPwQQw9yKrCUk_s-hCqRtq23X0
Quote from: Blackstar on 09/12/2023 09:51 pmhttps://www.leonarddavid.com/japans-mission-to-the-red-planet-probing-the-mysterious-moons-of-mars/?fbclid=IwAR1kgNGqvws9aADZFUY71awj8mKTTiH4kAPwQQw9yKrCUk_s-hCqRtq23X0Nice the mission's being talked about, although it's behind a paywall at Spaceref.com.
Major pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.
Quote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 01/14/2024 09:15 pmQuote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?What other launcher does Japan have that has this capability?
Quote from: Blackstar on 01/15/2024 02:57 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 01/14/2024 09:15 pmQuote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?What other launcher does Japan have that has this capability?I think "another launcher" is a polite euphemism for "Falcon 9".
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 01/15/2024 03:54 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 01/15/2024 02:57 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 01/14/2024 09:15 pmQuote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?What other launcher does Japan have that has this capability?I think "another launcher" is a polite euphemism for "Falcon 9".Not Japanese.The idea that SpaceX solves all problems is simplistic and naive.
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 01/14/2024 09:15 pmQuote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?MMX's mass was reported as 4,000 kg in 2020 https://www.mext.go.jp/kaigisiryo/content/000034537.pdf and inserted in a direct Mars transfer orbit; which is awfuly close to Falcon 9's advertised payload to mars of 4,020 kg (which also isn't a static thing, but slightly varies for each synods);4 years later I have no doubt that the inevitable minor mass creep makes it impossible for JAXA to launch it on a Falcon 9, so the alternative is a Falcon Heavy which is possibly unavailable to order and launch on such a relatively short notice and, anyway, more expensive than a H3 and maybe unafordable for JAXA's planned budget (minimum of $97 Million vs $50-90M variously reported for H3).ULA is booked, Ariane 64 will not be ready for the launch, HIIA is both booked, phasing out and not powerful enough, LVM3 is not capable, there are no alternatives.
Quote from: TheKutKu on 01/15/2024 10:57 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 01/14/2024 09:15 pmQuote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?MMX's mass was reported as 4,000 kg in 2020 https://www.mext.go.jp/kaigisiryo/content/000034537.pdf and inserted in a direct Mars transfer orbit; which is awfuly close to Falcon 9's advertised payload to mars of 4,020 kg (which also isn't a static thing, but slightly varies for each synods);4 years later I have no doubt that the inevitable minor mass creep makes it impossible for JAXA to launch it on a Falcon 9, so the alternative is a Falcon Heavy which is possibly unavailable to order and launch on such a relatively short notice and, anyway, more expensive than a H3 and maybe unafordable for JAXA's planned budget (minimum of $97 Million vs $50-90M variously reported for H3).ULA is booked, Ariane 64 will not be ready for the launch, HIIA is both booked, phasing out and not powerful enough, LVM3 is not capable, there are no alternatives.It appears that the alternatives are an expended F9, or an FH. Or they can wait for the H3.
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 01/16/2024 12:06 amQuote from: TheKutKu on 01/15/2024 10:57 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 01/14/2024 09:15 pmQuote from: redliox on 01/14/2024 05:14 pmMajor pity on the delay, but glad it's not a cancelation. JAXA will still end up with the honor of bringing the first samples from the vicinity of Mars back to Earth.Wonder if using another launcher is an option for JAXA to avoid the 2 year delay?MMX's mass was reported as 4,000 kg in 2020 https://www.mext.go.jp/kaigisiryo/content/000034537.pdf and inserted in a direct Mars transfer orbit; which is awfuly close to Falcon 9's advertised payload to mars of 4,020 kg (which also isn't a static thing, but slightly varies for each synods);4 years later I have no doubt that the inevitable minor mass creep makes it impossible for JAXA to launch it on a Falcon 9, so the alternative is a Falcon Heavy which is possibly unavailable to order and launch on such a relatively short notice and, anyway, more expensive than a H3 and maybe unafordable for JAXA's planned budget (minimum of $97 Million vs $50-90M variously reported for H3).ULA is booked, Ariane 64 will not be ready for the launch, HIIA is both booked, phasing out and not powerful enough, LVM3 is not capable, there are no alternatives.It appears that the alternatives are an expended F9, or an FH. Or they can wait for the H3.4,020 kg to TMI are for the expended F9 https://www.spacex.com/vehicles/falcon-9/; there is no alternative that is as cheap as an H3.
But H3 is delayed, so you need to compare it to other LVs that have not yet flown successfully. Clearly, it will be better to use H3 if JAXA determines that MMX can be deferred long enough.
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 01/16/2024 12:31 amBut H3 is delayed, so you need to compare it to other LVs that have not yet flown successfully. Clearly, it will be better to use H3 if JAXA determines that MMX can be deferred long enough.MMX is a Japanese national space agency mission. On of their goals is to use the national H3 launcher.
Certainly. Another of their goals is to launch on schedule, based on orbital mechanics. They may need to decide which goal takes precedence. That may become a choice they must make.