Author Topic: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics  (Read 50176 times)

Offline CameronD

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #80 on: 11/08/2017 09:07 PM »
I don't know enough to say how much of that is actually usable due wall effects on the flow. The model in the photos looked pretty small for something that's fitting in an 8.2 foot wide tube, so presumably they want it to see a very smooth gas front undistorted by the tube it's flowing in. Keep in  mind M9 with M1 at 340m/s is less than 0.4 ms to pass a 1m long object so 100ms is > 250x longer than it should take to establish smooth flow, collect data and have the flow subside ]

Accurately instrumenting something much faster than 1ms (required response times in microseconds), whilst not impossible, isn't particularly trivial (ie. cheap) and brings a host of other issues/errors into play, like scan rate and the speed of signals in wires.  Perhaps they're also working at the limits of their instrumentation.
   
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #81 on: 11/08/2017 09:25 PM »
I don't know enough to say how much of that is actually usable due wall effects on the flow. The model in the photos looked pretty small for something that's fitting in an 8.2 foot wide tube, so presumably they want it to see a very smooth gas front undistorted by the tube it's flowing in. Keep in  mind M9 with M1 at 340m/s is less than 0.4 ms to pass a 1m long object so 100ms is > 250x longer than it should take to establish smooth flow, collect data and have the flow subside ]

Accurately instrumenting something much faster than 1ms (required response times in microseconds), whilst not impossible, isn't particularly trivial (ie. cheap) and brings a host of other issues/errors into play, like scan rate and the speed of signals in wires.  Perhaps they're also working at the limits of their instrumentation.
 
Depends on the sensors and their response times.

Consider that a "small disturbance high frequency response pressure sensor" is also called a microphone and such devices were "listening" to the sound of "reentry noise" up to 200 KHz on a reentry vehicle (in a wind tunnel, not actual flight) in the 70's.

Pressure sensitive paint and IR cameras have also raised the number of data points you can collect, along with high temperature IE Sapphire optical fibers.

I'd say the hardware is available but the challenge is scale effects. Mfg all the little holes on the surface so they don't corrupt the signal (painstaking and precise work), hence the attraction of "area" sensors that can read the whole surface.   
« Last Edit: 11/09/2017 10:42 PM by john smith 19 »
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Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #82 on: 11/12/2017 08:06 PM »
Navy's Ultimate Weapon: Sub-launched Hypersonic Missiles

Quote
Benedict refused to provide any other details of the test, but a Pentagon spokesperson later gave additional information when contacted by U.S. Naval Institute News. “The Navy Strategic Systems Program (SSP), on behalf of the Department of Defense, conducted an Intermediate Range Conventional Prompt Strike Flight Experiment-1 (CPS FE-1) test on Oct. 30, 2017, from Pacific Missile Range Facility, Kauai, Hawaii,” said Cmdr. Patrick Evans, the Pentagon spokesperson. “The test collected data on hypersonic boost-glide technologies and test-range performance for long-range atmospheric flight. This data will be used by the Department of Defense to anchor ground testing, modeling, and simulation of hypersonic flight vehicle performance and is applicable to a range of possible Conventional Prompt Strike (CPS) concepts.”

Quote
DOD has promised the Pacific and European combatant commands that certain hypersonic capabilities will be fielded within the timeframe of fiscal year 2018–22. If the Navy’s sea-based hypersonic missile capabilities are realized, they are likely to be deployed on the four Ohio-class guided-missile submarines, as well as the new Virginia-class attack submarines.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/11/12/navys_ultimate_weapon_sub-launched_hypersonic_missiles_112621.html

Wonder if the British navy will be seeking a similar capability for our submarines.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2017 08:11 PM by Star One »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #83 on: 11/12/2017 10:23 PM »
Navy's Ultimate Weapon: Sub-launched Hypersonic Missiles

Quote
Benedict refused to provide any other details of the test, but a Pentagon spokesperson later gave additional information when contacted by U.S. Naval Institute News. “The Navy Strategic Systems Program (SSP), on behalf of the Department of Defense, conducted an Intermediate Range Conventional Prompt Strike Flight Experiment-1 (CPS FE-1) test on Oct. 30, 2017, from Pacific Missile Range Facility, Kauai, Hawaii,” said Cmdr. Patrick Evans, the Pentagon spokesperson. “The test collected data on hypersonic boost-glide technologies and test-range performance for long-range atmospheric flight. This data will be used by the Department of Defense to anchor ground testing, modeling, and simulation of hypersonic flight vehicle performance and is applicable to a range of possible Conventional Prompt Strike (CPS) concepts.”

Quote
DOD has promised the Pacific and European combatant commands that certain hypersonic capabilities will be fielded within the timeframe of fiscal year 2018–22. If the Navy’s sea-based hypersonic missile capabilities are realized, they are likely to be deployed on the four Ohio-class guided-missile submarines, as well as the new Virginia-class attack submarines.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/11/12/navys_ultimate_weapon_sub-launched_hypersonic_missiles_112621.html

Wonder if the British navy will be seeking a similar capability for our submarines.
Note this is a test mission to get baseline data to design a (possible) future weapon system, which may get funded.

It's a long way from anything getting deployed in front line service.

As for the British Navy I think they will be sticking with "run silent, run deep."
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #84 on: 11/14/2017 04:22 PM »
Lawmakers set 2022 target for DOD to field 'early operational' hypersonic strike capability

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Congress will soon vote on a defense policy bill that requires the U.S. military to plan for an "early operational" variant of a hypersonic strike weapon by 2022, setting a new statutory expectation for the Conventional Prompt Strike technology development effort.

The conference version of the House and Senate Armed Services committees' fiscal year 2018 defense authorization bill adopts the position advanced by the House requiring the defense secretary and Joint Chiefs chairman to "plan to reach an early operational capability for the conventional prompt strike weapon system by not later than September 30, 2022."

The Pentagon does not have a formal acquisition program of record for a hypersonic strike capability. The Defense Department is exploring potential boost-glide hypersonic technologies as part of a research and development effort overseen by the office of the secretary of defense, a project that has spent nearly $1 billion to date, with plans to allocate another $1.2 billion over the next five years.

In accordance with congressional guidance in the FY-16 National Defense Authorization Act, DOD plans a materiel development decision for a Conventional Prompt Strike capability in FY-20, the initial gateway to a formal acquisition effort.

The final FY-18 defense policy bill scrapped a House-proposed provisions to fence half the funding for the Conventional Prompt Strike program in the current fiscal year until the Pentagon provides lawmakers a report on the program, opting instead to set a 180-day deadline for the delivery of the report after the bill is enacted.

The report, which is to be prepared by the Joint Chiefs chairman in consultation with the heads of U.S. European, Pacific and Strategic commands, is to outline "the required level of resources that is consistent with the level of priority associated to the capability gap."

The required Pentagon appraisal is also to outline "the estimated period for the delivery of a medium-range early operational capability [and] the required level of resources necessary to field a medium-range conventional prompt strike weapon within the United States (including the territories and possessions of the United States) or a similar sea-based system."

In addition, the report is to address plans to ensure interoperability among any joint military hypersonic strike capabilities as well as plans -- including policy options -- "considered appropriate to address any potential risks of ambiguity from the launch or employment of such a capability."

The Joint Requirements Oversight Council, led by Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Paul Selva, last year assured the heads of U.S. European and Pacific commands, who are watching China and Russia routinely flight test high-speed weapons, that "certain" hypersonic strike capabilities would be fielded within the FY-17 to FY-22 future years defense plan.

Then-Defense Secretary Ash Carter, in written responses to Rep. Robert Aderholt (R-AL) following a March 4, 2016, hearing of the House Appropriations defense subcommittee, explained DOD had promised commanders in Europe and the Pacific an initial hypersonic strike capability between FY-18 and FY-22.

Aderholt had asked whether any combatant commanders had formally identified a need for a Conventional Prompt Global Strike capability, or the means to strike targets anywhere on earth in as little as an hour.

Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, EUCOM chief, and Adm. Harry Harris, PACOM head, according to Carter, both "submitted high-priority requirements for these capabilities" as part of the routine process combatant commanders use to influence Pentagon resource decisions, in this case the shape of the FY-18 budget and the accompanying five-year spending plan.

https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/lawmakers-set-2022-target-dod-field-early-operational-hypersonic-strike-capability

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #85 on: 11/24/2017 08:06 AM »
How hypersonic flight could transform air combat

A few highlights from the article.

Quote
The next, planned for 2019, will fly a Hyshot vehicle horizontally under its own power, for up to a minute at around Mach 8. Achieving hypersonic speed without a rocket, however, calls for a very different kind of engine.

Quote
Technology convergence too could play a part in the uptake of hypersonic flight in a combat role. The meteoric rise of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) over recent years and their widespread deployment across virtually the entire mission spectrum has brought the day when all fighter pilots will have been well and truly removed from their cockpits ever closer. It is arguably a much bigger step from the autonomous take-offs, landings and refuellings of the US Navy’s record-setting, carrier-based ‘Salty Dog’ to Lockheed’s SR-72 unmanned hypersonic spy plane, which could be operational by 2030, than from the SR-72 to hypersonic fighter drones.

The future of manned/unmanned fighters aside, the most immediate military application of hypersonic flight technology would seem likely to be in a new generation of missiles.

Quote
With so much to be gained, the US does not have the monopoly on hypersonic missile development and both Russia and China are known to be working on similar projects, although the details are seldom made public.  Never-the-less, Obnosov, has said that he fully expects air-launched hypersonic missiles capable of reaching Mach 6 to 8 to be ready as soon as 2020, in time for the new Tupolev PAK-DA strategic bombers due to enter service in 2023. He expects faster missiles will follow, and then piloted hypersonic aircraft around 2030 or 2040. Long before that, Russian Kirov-class cruisers are likely to be fielding the 3K-22M Zircon hypersonic cruise missile, with serial production of this scramjet-powered, anti-ship weapon scheduled to begin in 2018.

Chinese hypersonic programmes are even more opaque, but it appears that China is actively pursuing the technology, not least with the WU-14 glider, which is rumoured to be set for production towards the end of the 2020s.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/hypersonic-flight-transform-air-combat/

Offline chrisking0997

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #86 on: 12/01/2017 07:08 PM »
Im going to add this to this thread because I cant find any info anywhere else on it.  Does anyone know anything about a Hypersonic Technology Project at NASA?  I cant find anything online about it, but I just saw something to do with it here at Langley.  Curious if this is a new project or something I just have never heard of
Tried to tell you, we did.  Listen, you did not.  Now, screwed we all are.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #87 on: 12/01/2017 10:01 PM »
Im going to add this to this thread because I cant find any info anywhere else on it.  Does anyone know anything about a Hypersonic Technology Project at NASA?  I cant find anything online about it, but I just saw something to do with it here at Langley.  Curious if this is a new project or something I just have never heard of
Langley appears to be chock full of hypersonic testing equipment.

https://hapb-www.larc.nasa.gov/Public/Documents/Japan_paper_1.21.pdf

So there's probably something going somewhere on site.

There are lots of things about hypersonics that still need research. The question is wheather they are  going to be funded or wheather any researchers are going to bother.

The only thing that comes up is this

https://www.nasa.gov/aeroresearch/programs/aavp/ht

AIUI this is not a description of the branch. It is an (outline) description of the current tasks of the project. It looks either it's in its very early stages or there will be limited public information due to the DoD involvment.

Chuck Leonard
Project Manager (PM)

Paul Bartolotta
Deputy PM

Would appear to be the the people to be speaking to.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2017 10:10 PM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #88 on: 12/05/2017 07:40 PM »
Hypersonic research could lead to future spy drone

Quote
The Air Force Research Laboratory has awarded a $9.8 million contract to the University of Dayton Research Institute to develop materials able to withstand the extremes of hypersonic flight.

The Air Force could use the advanced composites in a high-flying unmanned reusable reconnaissance air vehicle by the 2030s, according to Robert Mercier, chief engineer for AFRL’s high speed systems division in the Aerospace Systems Directorate at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

“We’re looking for something that will give us more airplane-like operations,” he said. “In our research portfolio, we’re looking at ways to do more frequent and affordable flying of hypersonic systems.”

Flying at five times the speed of sound – the barrier to hypersonic flight – or faster, stresses materials with both high temperatures and pressures, researchers say.

http://www.whio.com/news/local-military/hypersonic-research-could-lead-future-spy-drone/rOaqyurXUU0rZ0aM1Aj1xL/

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #89 on: 01/02/2018 07:30 AM »
Introducing the DF-17: China's Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle

Quote
The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #90 on: 01/03/2018 03:31 PM »
Introducing the DF-17: China's Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle

Quote
The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/
You appeared to have posted the same story twice.

Was that your intention?

So ballistic missile (which can be detected using BM EW system technology already) can launch (also detectable with current technology) a hypersonic glider.

Which by definition will have a massive IR footprint.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #91 on: 01/03/2018 03:56 PM »
Introducing the DF-17: China's Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle

Quote
The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/
You appeared to have posted the same story twice.

Was that your intention?

So ballistic missile (which can be detected using BM EW system technology already) can launch (also detectable with current technology) a hypersonic glider.

Which by definition will have a massive IR footprint.

This post in error has now been removed. Sorry.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #92 on: 01/12/2018 09:37 AM »
Now this is an unexpected development.

Boeing Unveils Hypersonic ‘Son-Of-Blackbird’ Contender

Quote
ORLANDO, Florida—Amid continuing signs of a significant upswing in U.S. hypersonic research and development, Boeing has revealed first details of a reusable Mach 5-plus demonstrator vehicle design that could pave the way for a future high-speed strike and reconnaissance ...

Quote
Although initially independently funded by Boeing, development of the hypersonic vehicle concept is continuing under Darpa’s Advanced Full Range Engine (AFRE) initiative and a closely-related turbine-based combined cycle (TBCC) flight demonstration concept study run by the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory. Boeing’s engine partner for the concept is Orbital ATK, which in September 2017 was awarded a $21.4 million contract for the AFRE program. Boeing began work on the AFRL TBCC flight demonstrator concept study, with Orbital ATK as a subcontractor, in 2016.

Quote
“The propulsion system determines the length of the vehicle,” says Tom Smith, Boeing Research and Technology chief hypersonic aircraft designer. Although Boeing declines to discuss specific aspects of the design, the broad inlets and wide lower fuselage-mounted nacelle suggest the turbine and DMRJ in each TBCC engine are housed side-by-side rather than arranged in an over-under configuration.

The inward-turning inlets are positioned to capture the initial shockwave from the nose of the vehicle, while the sharply swept forebody chines are contoured into the relatively large-span delta wing to provide waveriding capability at hypersonic speed and sufficient lift for landing and takeoff at subsonic speed. The term waverider refers to a design in which the vehicle rides the shockwave attached to the leading edge, thus benefiting from lower induced drag. “As the narrow chine transitions to the wing, that produces a good vortex, which you care about at low speed,” Smith says.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/boeing-unveils-hypersonic-son-blackbird-contender
« Last Edit: 01/12/2018 11:22 AM by Star One »

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #93 on: 01/12/2018 07:53 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html
« Last Edit: 01/12/2018 08:05 PM by Star One »

Online RotoSequence

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #94 on: 01/16/2018 04:21 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html

The only twist we need now is that both aircraft were already built, and Northrop Grumman won the competition with an as yet classified third entry.  ;D
« Last Edit: 01/16/2018 04:23 PM by RotoSequence »

Online leovinus

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #95 on: 01/17/2018 11:03 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html

A Bloomberg article on the recent LM comments.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/america-s-fastest-spy-plane-may-be-back-and-hypersonic

In particular, I liked this quote from the same O’Banion as I have not seen this mentioned before (but might have missed it)

Quote
“But now we can digitally print that engine with an incredibly sophisticated cooling system integral into the material of the engine itself and have that engine survive for multiple firings for routine operation.” 

It almost sounds like they'll cool the turbine blades, or some pre-cooling system. Am curious whether this is similar to SABRE.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #96 on: 01/17/2018 11:08 PM »
New article with a Boeing illustration of the concept.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/amp15070935/boeing-hypersonic-concept-replace-sr-71-blackbird/

As for LM now here’s a interesting recent comment.

Quote
Jack O’Banion, Vice President of Strategy and Customer Requirements, Advanced Development Programs for Lockheed Martin, at a presentation said that the SR72 could not have been made without digital transformation. This seems to indicate that a hypersonic vehicle has been built.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/01/lockheed-may-have-completed-a-prototype-hypersonic-sr72.html

A Bloomberg article on the recent LM comments.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-16/america-s-fastest-spy-plane-may-be-back-and-hypersonic

In particular, I liked this quote from the same O’Banion as I have not seen this mentioned before (but might have missed it)

Quote
“But now we can digitally print that engine with an incredibly sophisticated cooling system integral into the material of the engine itself and have that engine survive for multiple firings for routine operation.” 

It almost sounds like they'll cool the turbine blades, or some pre-cooling system. Am curious whether this is similar to SABRE.

Taking these quotes as a whole it certainly sounds like they may have at the very least built either a technology demonstrator or full prototype.
« Last Edit: 01/17/2018 11:11 PM by Star One »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #97 on: 01/18/2018 06:25 AM »
That or they at least have a boilerplate version, not flightweight yet, that can be reused without refurbishment...

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #98 on: 01/18/2018 04:03 PM »
That or they at least have a boilerplate version, not flightweight yet, that can be reused without refurbishment...

Seems like there is a roughly a two/three year delay on their stated goals, so reaching point A for example quoted to be achieved in 2020 actually means 2017/2018 etc.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #99 on: 01/23/2018 12:14 AM »
I came across this

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19920012274

It's the "Tutorial Session" to the "RBCC Workshop" held in 1992.

Basically it's a brain dump of most of the key players (or their colleagues) who were active in the US hypersonics or high speed combined cycle communities during the 1960's and 1970's done shortly after the end of the NASP programme sunk close to $3Bn in then year dollars.  It's got quite a lot of stuff about the actual making of systems to operate in these environments, and their testing, by people who actually did it.

The stuff about NASP makes particularly amusing reading with various papers "Not ready at time of deadline" and the rest long on goals but pretty short on achievements.

Which is impressive for a programme that spent so much before an independent assessment found there wo many bugs in its business case it should never have been started.  :(
« Last Edit: 01/23/2018 05:57 AM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

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