Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 9  (Read 765556 times)

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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Nice critter; I suppose you'll also order some enclosure to host the board (and shield it) ? Or does the thing come with its own enclosure which you removed to show the board ?

The board has shields over the RF input and main transistor/RF output (I have them removed in the above image). I do not think another shield over the entire thing is necessary.

Well, having an enclosure may be useful to both shield and ground the board, but if you think it isn't needed then, you're in control, so, up to you :)

Offline Monomorphic

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Updated wiring diagram. These modifications have not been made yet. I will need to get it all working on the workbench, and then move it onto the torsional pendulum arm. I don't expect that to happen until next week.
« Last Edit: 04/20/2017 01:51 PM by Monomorphic »

Offline Monomorphic

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This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(  The Windfreak NV signal generator has an onboard power detector that I have tested and it works very well. It also has well documented/commented software: https://windfreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/synthnv/serialcomm.pdf
Would be a fairly simple matter to write new control software that monitors the reflected power while automatically adjusting signal frequency.

Offline TheTraveller

This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(  The Windfreak NV signal generator has an onboard power detector that I have tested and it works very well. It also has well documented/commented software: https://windfreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/synthnv/serialcomm.pdf
Would be a fairly simple matter to write new control software that monitors the reflected power while automatically adjusting signal frequency.

Jamie,

The forward and reflected power detector needs to be inserted inline in the coax feed between the thruster and the circulator.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(  The Windfreak NV signal generator has an onboard power detector that I have tested and it works very well. It also has well documented/commented software: https://windfreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/synthnv/serialcomm.pdf
Would be a fairly simple matter to write new control software that monitors the reflected power while automatically adjusting signal frequency.

Well, there are cheaper critters, but then I'm not sure they may be suitable

https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-100w-rf-attenuator.html

Offline SeeShells

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Thank you! I think if you keep moving the settings to other directions, you will find zero and negative positions. If so, draw a force_vs_direction plot, it may be evident that Lorentz force is at work.
The fact that the test setup is oriented in the East - West direction means that the Earth magnetic field is roughly perpendicular to the flow of the DC portion of the electric circuit. The associated perturbative Lorentz force should be so close to its maximum.
The fact that according to its orientation the action is mainly additive or substractive to the supposed EM-drive effect could be assessed by a test performed after a flip of the direct and return parts of the DC circuit or a flip of the frustum orientation.

The force might be in its maximum, but it is the torque that is the main factor that influences the balance displacement. If the DC loop is in the vertical plane defined by gravity and the balance arm, when the arm is in East - West direction, we will see the thrust to be close to its minimum (zero, if the loop is perfectly in the said plane). This claim is supported both by experiment and by theory.

The attached picture is a screenshot from may paper, https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.07752.pdf, fig 5. In my experiment, when the arm pointed to the East, the thrust was much smaller than when it pointed to the North.

Theoretically, the measured 'thrust' is related to the torque. When the said plane where the DC loop resides is parallel to the magnetic field (this is the case when arm points North - South), the Lorentz forces caused by currents in the two vertical lines of the loop point to opposite directions, and both are perpendicular to the plane, maximizing the torque. On the other hand, if the arm points East - West, the two opposite forces are in the same plane, minimizing the torque.

To quantify Lorentz actions monomorphic should point his drive with the small end up and then down. this will provide the same currents and ground loop draws as the drive in the horizontal positions and allow him to quantify the Lorentz actions induced by the beam in respect to the Earths magnetic field. Also, if there is a thrust vector towards the small end or large ends it should not effect the horizontal beam movement and he can even see it with his other vertical displacement sensor on the end of his beam.

For me I'm back to work on the new machine shop.

The main large lab is on hold for a bit (family issues).  At least we could get some work done on converting the the old storage room off of the main shop for all the machine shop for tools, i.e. lathe, band saw, drill press, English wheel, planishing hammer, arbor press etc.  I originally thought I could pack everything I needed into the lab, that was a foolish thought.  When we looked at what room I'd have left in the lab we realized there would be no room for me.  :o

Finally getting the  insulation, wiring, drywall, painting and lights done. Need to thank my dear friend who is taller than me and could reach the ceiling to paint and help to get drywall up. I should be able to get a small test stand to do testing in this area while I work on the larger lab.


All My Best,

Shell

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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@seeshells

Now that' really good news I can't wait to see what you'll turn the lab into :)

@monomorphic

If you'll decide to follow seeshell's suggestion, now it could be a good time, given that you planned to reorganize the rig, running those tests BEFORE doing so may help comparing the results with previous measurements ;)

Offline Monomorphic

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The forward and reflected power detector needs to be inserted inline in the coax feed between the thruster and the circulator.

Phil,
Check the first wiring diagram more closely. I am showing the bi-directional coupler and power detectors inline between the circulator and cavity.

Offline rhubley

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This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(  The Windfreak NV signal generator has an onboard power detector that I have tested and it works very well. It also has well documented/commented software: https://windfreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/synthnv/serialcomm.pdf
Would be a fairly simple matter to write new control software that monitors the reflected power while automatically adjusting signal frequency.

Jamie, have you considered starting a GoFundMe site for your work?  I am sure there are many who would be willing to help offset some of the costs for your endeavor.
« Last Edit: 04/20/2017 05:41 PM by rhubley »

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(  The Windfreak NV signal generator has an onboard power detector that I have tested and it works very well. It also has well documented/commented software: https://windfreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/synthnv/serialcomm.pdf
Would be a fairly simple matter to write new control software that monitors the reflected power while automatically adjusting signal frequency.

Jamie, have you considered starting a GoFundMe site for your work?  I am sure there are many who would be willing to help offset some of the costs for your endeavor.

A "hackaday" project may work as well ;)

Offline Monomorphic

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Jamie, have you considered starting a GoFundMe site for your work?  I am sure there are many who would be willing to help offset some of the costs for your endeavor.

Yes, I've considered it. I just haven't had the time to look into the production aspects. In order to make it look decent, I would need to do a lot of marketing-type work. I'm also a little apprehensive about the baggage/expectations accepting donations entails. With the purchase of the Windfreak NV signal generator and Spectrian amplifer, that came to nearly $800, which is somewhat over my monthly budget.  But I had a few extra hundred sitting around after a stock trade this week so it all works out.  ;)

Offline xyzzy

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This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(   ...
<snipped picture>

Hi Monomorphic

This is by far the best power+gnd wiring structure of any EM-drive system that I've seen here on NSF so far, I would highly recommend it, especially compared to your previous more complex setup. The reason is that it is essentially completely free from uncontrolled power paths.

All previous versions had many uncontrolled and double return paths over USB grounds, RF shields and grounds and parallel supply connections, resulting in multiple (even multiply meshed) ground loops. They may not have been all obvious because the housing + coax shields and the board-internal ground connections were never explicitly drawn on your schematics, but once they are added to the drawings, the power return structure becomes complex very fast. One can't discount the shields and housings because they tend to have larger metal cross sections and hence lower impedances than the "dedicated" ground wires, making them preferred high risk unintended return conductors.

Now, that you've proposed a setup with a particularly well designed supply and return structure, please thoroughly consider to pursue it further. It has no indirect current return paths by design. There is exactly one ground loop via the coax shield (generator to amplifier, to circulator, to attenuator, to sensor, common sensor-generator ground inside generator), and all of the sub-paths of this single loop are essentially non-DC-current-carrying. "In my book" of ground return designs that one would be a huge success.

You may not need a 100W attenuator, a 50W should be adequate for the 30W amplifier. Something for less than $250 should be possible to obtain. You unfortunately lose the forward power measurement, but I think this is an acceptable price to pay for a well controlled DC supply path behaviour. You can still track resonance via reflected power only.

Best regards

Offline xyzzy

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This is a second very simple wiring option that I am seriously considering, but I would need to purchase a $250 100W attenuator to make it work.     :'(  The Windfreak NV signal generator has an onboard power detector that I have tested and it works very well. It also has well documented/commented software: https://windfreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/synthnv/serialcomm.pdf
Would be a fairly simple matter to write new control software that monitors the reflected power while automatically adjusting signal frequency.

Well, there are cheaper critters, but then I'm not sure they may be suitable

https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-100w-rf-attenuator.html

I think most of them will work well enough. Whether or not they can really sustain 100W for an indefinite duration (less than likely) is not that much of an issue considering a 30W signal source and test times in minutes rather than days.

Offline spupeng7

Another powered test. As you can see, noise floor into the test is very low now (top) and much improved upon earlier tests (bottom). What's interesting about this most recent test is the entire test stand has been moved 90 degrees from its earlier position, so that the test stand is now roughly east-west - yet the same anomalous "forward thrust" signal remains, albeit at a reduced level.

Monomorphic,
if this signal is significant, might it be worth your time to run and record a series of tests at this stage. The setup you have might be difficult to reproduce if improvements prove difficult. If improvements are achieved you then have a baseline from which to specify that improvement.
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline robus

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Jamie, have you considered starting a GoFundMe site for your work?  I am sure there are many who would be willing to help offset some of the costs for your endeavor.

Yes, I've considered it. I just haven't had the time to look into the production aspects. In order to make it look decent, I would need to do a lot of marketing-type work. I'm also a little apprehensive about the baggage/expectations accepting donations entails. With the purchase of the Windfreak NV signal generator and Spectrian amplifer, that came to nearly $800, which is somewhat over my monthly budget.  But I had a few extra hundred sitting around after a stock trade this week so it all works out.  ;)

Consider Patreon too. Especially if you have a monthly budget! Much less marketing required, Bob Woods might even do the word smithing :)

Offline Mezzenile

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The force might be in its maximum, but it is the torque that is the main factor that influences the balance displacement. If the DC loop is in the vertical plane defined by gravity and the balance arm, when the arm is in East - West direction, we will see the thrust to be close to its minimum (zero, if the loop is perfectly in the said plane). This claim is supported both by experiment and by theory.

The attached picture is a screenshot from may paper, https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.07752.pdf, fig 5. In my experiment, when the arm pointed to the East, the thrust was much smaller than when it pointed to the North.

Theoretically, the measured 'thrust' is related to the torque. When the said plane where the DC loop resides is parallel to the magnetic field (this is the case when arm points North - South), the Lorentz forces caused by currents in the two vertical lines of the loop point to opposite directions, and both are perpendicular to the plane, maximizing the torque. On the other hand, if the arm points East - West, the two opposite forces are in the same plane, minimizing the torque.
Nice to see your article on this subject ! I agree with the fact that the final effect of Lorentz force generation is through the induced torque around the suspension wire of the test set up. But my point was to see if its effect was to enhance or to reduce the observed displacement associated with the EM-drive effect.

Lorentz forces / torques induced on a DC circuit  by the earth magnetic field are used on geostationnary satellites for attitude control.
« Last Edit: 04/21/2017 03:34 AM by Mezzenile »

Offline TheTraveller

Another powered test. As you can see, noise floor into the test is very low and much improved upon earlier tests. What's interesting about this most recent test is the entire test stand has been moved 90 degrees from its earlier position, so that the test stand is now roughly east-west - yet the same anomalous "forward thrust" signal remains, albeit at a reduced level.

Thank you! I think if you keep moving the settings to other directions, you will find zero and negative positions. If so, draw a force_vs_direction plot, it may be evident that Lorentz force is at work.

At work ... Only when it comes to powered tests? Please expand your claim

It will be at work if RF-on is accompanied by power-on. If RF-on is accompanied by power-on, or will alter power current, DC loops will interact with the Earth's magnetic field and generate Lorentz force.

So why is the displacement curve Jamie measured not showing a constant displacement force during the entire Rf / Power on period?

His data is showing there is an approx 30-35 sec long displacement force and a 30-35 sec return to the original displacement position. There is no evidence of a continual displacement force.

Maybe you can explain why what we see is caused by a Lorentz force from the test rig interacting with the Earth's magnetic field?
« Last Edit: 04/21/2017 11:40 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
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Online LowerAtmosphere

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Thank you! I think if you keep moving the settings to other directions, you will find zero and negative positions. If so, draw a force_vs_direction plot, it may be evident that Lorentz force is at work.
The fact that the test setup is oriented in the East - West direction means that the Earth magnetic field is roughly perpendicular to the flow of the DC portion of the electric circuit. The associated perturbative Lorentz force should be so close to its maximum.
The fact that according to its orientation the action is mainly additive or substractive to the supposed EM-drive effect could be assessed by a test performed after a flip of the direct and return parts of the DC circuit or a flip of the frustum orientation.

The force might be in its maximum, but it is the torque that is the main factor that influences the balance displacement. If the DC loop is in the vertical plane defined by gravity and the balance arm, when the arm is in East - West direction, we will see the thrust to be close to its minimum (zero, if the loop is perfectly in the said plane). This claim is supported both by experiment and by theory.

The attached picture is a screenshot from may paper, https://arxiv.org/pdf/1510.07752.pdf, fig 5. In my experiment, when the arm pointed to the East, the thrust was much smaller than when it pointed to the North.

Theoretically, the measured 'thrust' is related to the torque. When the said plane where the DC loop resides is parallel to the magnetic field (this is the case when arm points North - South), the Lorentz forces caused by currents in the two vertical lines of the loop point to opposite directions, and both are perpendicular to the plane, maximizing the torque. On the other hand, if the arm points East - West, the two opposite forces are in the same plane, minimizing the torque.

Potomac,

Some peer review for your paper:

1. With a P-val of 0.008 it is clear that there is a statistically significant difference between the states, however there is no mention of the methodology behind the error bars. Was the standard error of the mean used or is each tail simply 1 standard deviation? How about other sources of error, is the cylinder/pseudo-amplifier hollow, where do they orientate, do they resonate?

2. What are the damping parameters of both the magnetic and oil dampers? Did you measure oscillations over time or is each displacement result simply the mean orientation over time? How long after power on did you measure? In other words, what is the resolution and oscillation period of your device?

3. Was lorentz force and torque on the steel wire accounted for? Was there shielding between the copper cylinder and the beam/other components? How about the external shielding against thermal and atmospheric turbulence? How did the change of return path shape change the displacement force?

4. Have you considered condensation and thermal plumes arising from the ice bath? Is the apparatus level and evenly balanced in all 3 dimensions?

5. Is an effect size of 41uN/20.72W aka 1.98uN/W, statistically significant when considering effect sizes several orders of magnitude higher?

6. What is the RF cable and what does it do with the copper cylinder?

7. Edit: I could also talk about the very small sample size, though that is more of a question for follow-up experiments and replications.

The idea behind the experiment is valid but this experiment, in my humble opinion, is not statistically valid and the results do prove an effect though the conclusion that this may have a considerable impact on "EM Drive" thrusts is not supported by the methodology and results. I hope that this proves helpful :)     
« Last Edit: 04/21/2017 01:06 PM by LowerAtmosphere »

Offline PotomacNeuron

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Another powered test. As you can see, noise floor into the test is very low and much improved upon earlier tests. What's interesting about this most recent test is the entire test stand has been moved 90 degrees from its earlier position, so that the test stand is now roughly east-west - yet the same anomalous "forward thrust" signal remains, albeit at a reduced level.

Thank you! I think if you keep moving the settings to other directions, you will find zero and negative positions. If so, draw a force_vs_direction plot, it may be evident that Lorentz force is at work.

At work ... Only when it comes to powered tests? Please expand your claim

It will be at work if RF-on is accompanied by power-on. If RF-on is accompanied by power-on, or will alter power current, DC loops will interact with the Earth's magnetic field and generate Lorentz force.

So why is the displacement curve Jamie measured not showing a constant displacement force during the entire Rf / Power on period?

His data is showing there is an approx 30-35 sec long displacement force and a 30-35 sec return to the original displacement position. There is no evidence of a continual displacement force.

Maybe you can explain why what we see is caused by a Lorentz force from the test rig interacting with the Earth's magnetic field?

It is a dynamic system and the displacement is influenced by the push (torque), the second degree dynamics (oscillation) of rotations of the arm around its 3 axles (each with a different osc frequency), and the non-linear damping. To see whether it is Lorentz is easy. The  test bed has 4 wheels. Just move it to another angle relative to the Earth's magnetic field and re-test. Collect 8 directions or more and draw a max-displacement vs angle plot. The plot will reveal to us whether it is Lorentz or not Lorentz. 
I am working on the ultimate mission human beings are made for.

Offline Bob Woods

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Jamie, have you considered starting a GoFundMe site for your work?  I am sure there are many who would be willing to help offset some of the costs for your endeavor.

Yes, I've considered it. I just haven't had the time to look into the production aspects. In order to make it look decent, I would need to do a lot of marketing-type work. I'm also a little apprehensive about the baggage/expectations accepting donations entails. With the purchase of the Windfreak NV signal generator and Spectrian amplifer, that came to nearly $800, which is somewhat over my monthly budget.  But I had a few extra hundred sitting around after a stock trade this week so it all works out.  ;)

Consider Patreon too. Especially if you have a monthly budget! Much less marketing required, Bob Woods might even do the word smithing :)


Wow, I better buy an anvil for serious pounding. Thanks for the compliment.


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