Author Topic: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info  (Read 156317 times)

Offline K210

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SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« on: 07/29/2013 10:16 am »
New details have emerged of the 2000kn LOX/kerosene engine that ISRO is developing

Specfic impulse: 330 sec

Thrust (vac) : 2000 KN

Throttle: 60% to 105% of full power

Combustion cycle: staged combustion

estimated completion date: 2016-2017

usage: to replace L-110 stage of GSLV mk-3 and to power core of future ULV rocket family

if anyone has anymore info feel free to add to the list:)


Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #1 on: 07/29/2013 02:12 pm »
Thrust (vacuum) - 2000 kN
Isp (vacuum) - 3285 N-s/kg
Chamber Pressure - 18 MPa
Mixture Ratio - 2.65
Thrust Throttling - 65-105 (% of nominal thrust)
Engine gimbal - 8 degrees (in two planes)

ISRO has started building thrust chamber test facility for semi-cryo engine
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #2 on: 07/30/2013 07:10 am »
Thrust (vacuum) - 2000 kN
Isp (vacuum) - 3285 N-s/kg
Chamber Pressure - 18 MPa
Mixture Ratio - 2.65
Thrust Throttling - 65-105 (% of nominal thrust)
Engine gimbal - 8 degrees (in two planes)

ISRO has started building thrust chamber test facility for semi-cryo engine

dosen't ISRO already have a test facility for testing liquid engines?

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #3 on: 07/31/2013 12:28 pm »
Thrust (vacuum) - 2000 kN
Isp (vacuum) - 3285 N-s/kg
Chamber Pressure - 18 MPa
Mixture Ratio - 2.65
Thrust Throttling - 65-105 (% of nominal thrust)
Engine gimbal - 8 degrees (in two planes)

ISRO has started building thrust chamber test facility for semi-cryo engine

dosen't ISRO already have a test facility for testing liquid engines?

Not for a 2000 kN class semo-cryo engine
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline kanaka

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #4 on: 07/31/2013 02:21 pm »
Thrust (vacuum) - 2000 kN
Isp (vacuum) - 3285 N-s/kg
Chamber Pressure - 18 MPa
Mixture Ratio - 2.65
Thrust Throttling - 65-105 (% of nominal thrust)
Engine gimbal - 8 degrees (in two planes)

ISRO has started building thrust chamber test facility for semi-cryo engine

dosen't ISRO already have a test facility for testing liquid engines?

Not for a 2000 kN class semo-cryo engine


Need to send to RUSSIA for getting it tested?

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #5 on: 07/31/2013 03:55 pm »
Thrust (vacuum) - 2000 kN
Isp (vacuum) - 3285 N-s/kg
Chamber Pressure - 18 MPa
Mixture Ratio - 2.65
Thrust Throttling - 65-105 (% of nominal thrust)
Engine gimbal - 8 degrees (in two planes)

ISRO has started building thrust chamber test facility for semi-cryo engine

dosen't ISRO already have a test facility for testing liquid engines?

Not for a 2000 kN class semo-cryo engine


Need to send to RUSSIA for getting it tested?


They are building test facilities in India.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #6 on: 01/10/2014 12:20 pm »
Rotary Vacuum Brazing Furnace
« Last Edit: 01/10/2014 12:40 pm by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline cave_dweller

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #7 on: 01/12/2014 08:16 am »

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #8 on: 03/11/2014 02:35 am »
Single element Thrust chamber (experimental design) hot test
« Last Edit: 03/11/2014 02:36 am by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #9 on: 03/11/2014 02:40 am »
Injector design experimental study for Oxidizer Rich Staged Combustion cycle

Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #10 on: 08/05/2014 01:57 pm »
Update:

1) Realisation of semi-cryogenic engine involves the development of performance-critical metallic and non-metallic materials and related processing technologies. 23 metallic materials and 6 non-metallic materials have been developed.

2) Characterisation of injector elements and hypergolic slug igniters with different proportion of Tri-ethyl Aluminium and Tri-ethyl Boron has been completed.

3) Sub-scale models of thrust chamber have been realised and ignition trials have been carried out successfully.

4) Single element thrust chamber hot test in stage combustion cycle mode was also conducted successfully.

Establishment of test facilities like Cold Flow Test Facility and Integrated Engine Test Facility are under various stages of realisation. Fabrication drawings are realised for all sub-systems and fabrication of booster turbo-pump and pre-burner subsystem commenced.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #11 on: 08/26/2014 06:47 am »
A pretty noob question that I have been having for some time in my mind...

Considering that LOX/Kerosene engines have been present from the dawn of the Space Age (R-7 comes to my mind), what exactly would be the primary engineering difficulty in designing a modern high thrust LOX/Kerosene engine like SCE-200? Would it be things like the design of turbopumps with sufficient mass-flow, dealing with combustion instability in thrust chamber etc...  all on account of the huge amount of thrust we are dealing with? And maybe meeting the weight and Isp targets as well?

Are these the challenges that necessitated the Chinese Space Agency and ISRO to approach Russians and Ukrainians respectively to get their LOX/Kerosene engine designs, despite having developed LOX/LH2 engines earlier?
« Last Edit: 08/26/2014 09:15 am by vineethgk »

Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #12 on: 08/26/2014 03:38 pm »

A pretty noob question that I have been having for some time in my mind...

Considering that LOX/Kerosene engines have been present from the dawn of the Space Age (R-7 comes to my mind), what exactly would be the primary engineering difficulty in designing a modern high thrust LOX/Kerosene engine like SCE-200? Would it be things like the design of turbopumps with sufficient mass-flow, dealing with combustion instability in thrust chamber etc...  all on account of the huge amount of thrust we are dealing with? And maybe meeting the weight and Isp targets as well?

Are these the challenges that necessitated the Chinese Space Agency and ISRO to approach Russians and Ukrainians respectively to get their LOX/Kerosene engine designs, despite having developed LOX/LH2 engines earlier?
Most initial engines were gas generators run fuel rich. But high performance requires staged combustion cycle. Which can only be done with oxygen rich preburners. That's close to an oxy torch environment. Developing the necessary metallurgy so it doesn't corrodes is the main obstacle. Then, the preburner needs to have something like 20 times the mass flow of a gas generator, so you get combustions instability problems on the preburner. And the main combustion chamber and all piping run at least at twice the pressure. And you really can't separate the preburner stability from the main combustion chamber, so you don't know if each part works until you fire the whole thing. For the rest, easy picy :-p

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #13 on: 08/27/2014 06:36 am »

Most initial engines were gas generators run fuel rich. But high performance requires staged combustion cycle. Which can only be done with oxygen rich preburners. That's close to an oxy torch environment. Developing the necessary metallurgy so it doesn't corrodes is the main obstacle. Then, the preburner needs to have something like 20 times the mass flow of a gas generator, so you get combustions instability problems on the preburner. And the main combustion chamber and all piping run at least at twice the pressure. And you really can't separate the preburner stability from the main combustion chamber, so you don't know if each part works until you fire the whole thing. For the rest, easy picy :-p

Thanks for the explanation! Till now I was under the impression that combustion instability is something that affects the main combustion chamber alone.  ???

Any guesses as to what extent ISRO's prior experience of having built a Staged Combustion LOX/LH2 stage, albeit of much lower thrust, help in tackling these challenges?
« Last Edit: 08/27/2014 08:18 am by vineethgk »

Offline AJA

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #14 on: 08/31/2014 07:43 am »
Any guesses as to what extent ISRO's prior experience of having built a Staged Combustion LOX/LH2 stage, albeit of much lower thrust, help in tackling these challenges?

Guessing here. If you're talking about the CUS-7.5, they "built it" by reverse engineering a Russian engine for the full-cryo, staged combustion engine. They didn't start from basic principles, and therefore there isn't that experience with the fundamental research around cryogens. Not nearly as much as what the Russians and the Americans have.

Watch to get an idea of how long it took the Soviets. Also, starting at 40:21, you get an idea of the ridiculous environment in ox-rich pre-burners.

However, reverse engineering isn't trivial. They'd have learnt to handle cryogens on the ground, and design fuel flow systems without the cryogens boiling off in the middle of the line and causing "geysering". They'd have learnt to design the turbopumps to function without cavitation. They'd have learnt what materials they'd need to use to seal chambers, and valves and piping, and the metallurgy of the tanks and pipes, and combustion chambers to hold cryogens. They'd have built the closed loop electronic systems to monitor engine health, as well as instrumentation that can handle cryogenic temperatures (fuel level sensors etc.). They'd have built some electronic control unit for engine throttling - by altering mixture ratios and/or fuel flow to the pre-burner and/or main combustion chamber. A lot of that should be transferable.

However, the SCE-200 is a bigger engine. So they'd definitely have do revisit thermal and fluid flow solutions. Combustion instabilities, and engine characteristics would be different... so they'd have to start from scratch there. It's not staged combustion though, so that'd probably make things somewhat easier. Nozzle cooling would also have to be carried out with a different fluid (I'm assuming they used LH2 in the CUS-7.5), so that'd need attention. They might need a whole different injector/valve/piping design - in terms of materials used, as well as geometry, since kerosene has different physical and chemical properties. Finally, the entire thermodynamic cycle has changed.

As for why they didn't stick with the staged combustion design - that's been discussed here.

And you really can't separate the preburner stability from the main combustion chamber, so you don't know if each part works until you fire the whole thing.

Can't you test the turbopumps, the valves, the fuel flow, and the pre-burner - each individually? The only thing you'd need a complete engine for would be to test the combustion chamber. You'd need O/F rich hot gas and the remnant of F/O coming in to the combustion chamber. To get those, you'd have had to build a pre-burner .... so you've ended up building an engine. However, you could have really long piping and additional bleed/feed lines on a test rig (exploiting the fact that you're on the ground) - and thereby decouple the instabilities in the pre-burner, from those in the combustion chamber couldn't you?

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #15 on: 08/31/2014 11:04 am »
Thanks AJA for the info and especially the YouTube link..

However, the SCE-200 is a bigger engine. So they'd definitely have do revisit thermal and fluid flow solutions. Combustion instabilities, and engine characteristics would be different... so they'd have to start from scratch there. It's not staged combustion though, so that'd probably make things somewhat easier.

Did you mean CE-20 and not SCE-200 here? I believe SCE-200 is a staged combustion engine as mentioned in the OP?

Btw, I read sometime back that ISRO got the SCE-200 design from Yuzhnoye OKB. Is this the Yuzhnoye counterpart we are talking about - The RD-810?
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/


If it is a design that is still under development by Yuzhnoye as mentioned in the link, is SCE-200/RD-810 some kind of ongoing joint ISRO-Yuzhnoye development, or did it stop with the sharing of design?

Offline baldusi

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SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #16 on: 08/31/2014 03:44 pm »
CUS-7.5 is run fuel rich. H2 engines run better when fuel rich, since the thermal properties of H2 give a lot more power on the turbine. And don't have the metallurgy issues of O2. Regrettably, RP-1 would polymerize if run at preburner temperatures.
It's interesting to point out that the CUS-7.5 is air startable, but not restartable. But when they needed a higher thrust restartable engine they went with the easier gas generator cycle. That might say something about their development experience with staged combustion H2/LOX engine.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2014 03:48 pm by baldusi »

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #17 on: 11/08/2014 02:24 am »
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/ISRO%E2%80%99s-Baby-Steps-at-Cheaper-Missions/2014/11/08/article2513064.ece

Quote
Officials at the LPSC HQ, Valiyamala, said they hoped to run the first major test in connection with the ‘semi-cryogenic’ engine project by November-end. What is special about the engine is that it uses kerosene as fuel instead of Liquid Hydrogen (LH2), the propellant used in cryogenic engines.

“This will be the first sub-system level test and we will be testing the booster pump for the oxidiser used in the engine,’’ LPSC director K Sivan said on Friday.  In both cryogenic and the semi-cryogenic engines, Liquid Oxygen is used as oxidiser, which helps the fuel to burn. In addition to being a low-cost technology, the use of highly refined kerosene (RP-1) will enable easier storage and handling.

The cold flow test facility at the LPSC unit in Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu, where the test is to be conducted, is expected to be completed shortly, Sivan said. In fact, LPSC has had to postpone the test to November owing to the delay in its completion. An integrated test facility also is planned at Mahendragiri where the ‘hot test’ of the semi-cryo engine - in a hot test, the engine is fired - will be performed.

Offline abhishek

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #18 on: 12/18/2014 06:01 pm »
Godrej Aerospace to make semi-cryogenic engines

Quote
The SME project was approved by the Government of India in January 2009 at a sanctioned cost of ₹1,798 crore. Department of Space’s Outcome Budget for 2014-15 says that the project is “in the initial stages”.

It expects the engine to be fully developed “after six years”.

Till the end of March 2013, ISRO had spent ₹155 crore on the project. Godrej will make six engines for ISRO. Vaidya said the company had begun work on three.

The SME is meant to power the future GSLV Mk III rockets as well as the heavy-life Unified Launch Vehicles, or ULV, which is today only a concept. The ULV will be a modular vehicle where the number of engines used will be based on the weight of the satellite or spacecraft.

The rocket will feature a combination of SME and an Indian cryogenic engine.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/has-been-supplying-the-vikas-engines-for-isros-rockets/article6705014.ece
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline abhishek

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #19 on: 02/19/2015 03:09 am »
Quote
Meanwhile, ISRO has started forming concepts to develop a rocket that can put a 10-tonne satellite into orbit. This vehicle would require powerful engines. One candidate is the semi-cryogenic engine, using kerosene and liquid oxygen, whose design is now over. The hardware is being built and facilities being created. When ready, it will be an efficient lower stage with a thrust of 200 tonnes and controllable in flight, good enough to go into the lower stages of a large rocket. ISRO's plans are to use it in the heavy lifter and the reusable launch vehicle.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/46294413.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #20 on: 02/19/2015 10:21 am »
Quote
Meanwhile, ISRO has started forming concepts to develop a rocket that can put a 10-tonne satellite into orbit. This vehicle would require powerful engines. One candidate is the semi-cryogenic engine, using kerosene and liquid oxygen, whose design is now over. The hardware is being built and facilities being created. When ready, it will be an efficient lower stage with a thrust of 200 tonnes and controllable in flight, good enough to go into the lower stages of a large rocket. ISRO's plans are to use it in the heavy lifter and the reusable launch vehicle.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/46294413.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
This LV should be similar to Atlas V ie 2 x 450klb 1st stage RP1 engines plus cryogenic upper stage.

Offline abhishek

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #21 on: 03/02/2015 12:44 pm »
Semi-cryogenic Engine: ISRO Charting a Revised Plan

Hit by delays, the Indian Space Research Organisation’s (ISRO) efforts to create a rocket engine which uses kerosene as propellant is getting a revised plan.

Quote
The new ISRO chairman A S Kiran Kumar has asked the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre (LPSC) to prepare a brand new-schedule for the semi-cryogenic engine project as it is running behind schedule. As per the original plan, the semi-cryogenic engine should have been ready by 2014, but delays in setting up test facilities at the LPSC unit in Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu, had dragged the project.

Kiran Kumar, who took over as chairman in January, reviewed the progress during a recent visit to the LPSC HQ in Valiyamala, Thiruvananthapuram, and recommended a revised plan.

The new schedule for the semi-cryo engine will be readied on the basis of the report prepared by the LPSC, LPSC director Dr K Sivan said. ‘’We are making all efforts to speed up the project. The ISRO chairman has recommended a revised plan and we are working on it,’’ Sivan said.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/thiruvananthapuram/Semi-cryogenic-Engine-ISRO-Charting-a-Revised-Plan/2015/03/02/article2693939.ece
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline jithinnam

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #22 on: 04/02/2015 01:44 am »
LVM3-SC rocket powered by the SCE-200 Semi-Cryo Engine

The SCE-200 is a liquid-fuel rocket engine being developed by the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre, a subsidiary of ISRO. It is being developed to power the future heavy-lift Unified Launch Vehicle (ULV) and Reusable Launch Vehicle (RLV) being planned by ISRO but before that it will be tested with GSLV Mk III by replacing L110(powered by old Vikas engine) stage to SC160.

Here is how this version of GSLV-3 would look like. All specifications are based on available valid data.

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #23 on: 04/25/2015 04:52 am »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #24 on: 04/26/2015 08:56 pm »
The appear to increase the upper stage propellant by 20%, too. At 6.2tonnes it can launch, almost, anything commercial.

Offline johnxx9

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #25 on: 04/27/2015 06:45 pm »


Nice find! Would be interesting to have the dimensions of the CLC.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #26 on: 08/13/2015 09:10 pm »
Quote
"We are looking at using Russian testing facilities for the semi-cryogenic engine. We will be ready with the engine [SCE-200] in six to eight months. Although we will have our own test facility at Mahendragiri, ours will take some time to come up."

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/russian-tieup-to-boost-isros-semicryogenic-launcher-plan/article7536263.ece
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Offline abhishek

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #27 on: 08/14/2015 03:18 am »
more importantly, what the hell is this thing ?

The ISRO is working on its new-generation, Rs. 1,800-crore third rocket programme, called the semi-cryogenic launch vehicle, to beef up its current portfolio of the PSLV and the GSLV.
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline Ohsin

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #28 on: 08/14/2015 03:36 am »
more importantly, what the hell is this thing ?

The ISRO is working on its new-generation, Rs. 1,800-crore third rocket programme, called the semi-cryogenic launch vehicle, to beef up its current portfolio of the PSLV and the GSLV.

They are referring to HLV

http://www.vssc.gov.in/VSSC_V4/index.php/technology/heavy-lift-launch-vehicles

It needs a thread now :)
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #29 on: 08/14/2015 03:41 am »
The SCE200 is 2MN (460kbl) RP1 engine for the 1st stage. According to Wiki it will fly in GSLV MK3 initial then be used in a new LV.

NB 2 of these engines plus the new upper stage (CE20 200kN LH2 engine) they are developing and ISRO has a Atlas V class LV. 

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #30 on: 08/14/2015 09:10 am »
Quote from Ohsin

Quote

Quote

    "We are looking at using Russian testing facilities for the semi-cryogenic engine. We will be ready with the engine [SCE-200] in six to eight months. Although we will have our own test facility at Mahendragiri, ours will take some time to come up."


http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/russian-tieup-to-boost-isros-semicryogenic-launcher-plan/article7536263.ece


This is a rather needless and irresponsible media announcement by ISRO about Russian tie-up vis-à-vis Indian Semi Cryogenic Engine Development as if Russia will transfer technology to India. The cooperation would be just about the testing of the semi cryogenic engine at Russian Test Facilities until ISRO's own Semi Cryogenic Engine Testing Facilities come up later at Mahendra Giri, IPRC ( ISRO Propulsion Complex ).

ISRO shouldn't have made this announcement to avoid being arms-twisted by the USA, as it would not like ISRO to develop Semi Cryogenic Engine Technology that will pave the way for ATLAS V type HLV development in the long run by ISRO. I hope, ISRO does not get into any sort of Cryogenic Engine type trouble of 1990s because of the profuse publicizing of this type of news by the Indian Media that can't keep quite regarding any Hi-tech research that India Scientific Establishment embarks upon. Indian media is India's Scientific Establishment’s biggest enemy. If we search in any search engine with the keywords such as cryogenic engine, semi cryogenic engine, 90% of the websites that will appear in the top 20 to 30 positions will belong to India's cryogenic and semi cryogenic engine related news. While we can't get as much news of China's Semi Cryogenic Engine Development as possible.

By the way the author’s reporting that India will be the third country to achieve this Semi Cryogenic Engine Technology after the USA and the Russia is completely wrong. China has already developed 2 Semi-Cryogenic Engines.

1  )  YF-115 that has Thrust (vac.) of 176.5 KN / Thrust (SL) of 147.1 KN will be used in the Long March 6 second stage and Long March 7 second stage.

2 )  YF-100 Semi Cryogenic Engine that has Thrust (vac.) of 1,340 KN [ Thrust (SL) 1,200 KN ] will be used in the Long March 5 as K3-1 ( 2X YF-100) and K2-1 ( 1X YF-100 boosters ), Long March 6 first stage and Long March 7 first stage and boosters.

« Last Edit: 09/28/2015 12:51 pm by Chris Bergin »

Offline abhishek

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #31 on: 08/14/2015 10:23 am »
Quote


This is a rather needless and irresponsible media announcement by ISRO about Russian tie-up vis-à-vis Indian Semi Cryogenic Engine Development as if Russia will transfer technology to India. The cooperation would be just about the testing of the semi cryogenic engine at Russian Test Facilities until ISRO's own Semi Cryogenic Engine Testing Facilities come up later at Mahendra Giri, IPRC ( ISRO Propulsion Complex ).

ISRO shouldn't have made this announcement to avoid being arms-twisted by the USA, as it would not like ISRO to develop Semi Cryogenic Engine Technology that will pave the way for ATLAS V type HLV development in the long run by ISRO. I hope, ISRO does not get into any sort of Cryogenic Engine type trouble of 1990s because of the profuse publicizing of this type of news by the Indian Media that can't keep quite regarding any Hi-tech research that India Scientific Establishment embarks upon. Indian media is India's Scientific Establishment’s biggest enemy. If we search in any search engine with the keywords such as cryogenic engine, semi cryogenic engine, 90% of the websites that will appear in the top 20 to 30 positions will belong to India's cryogenic and semi cryogenic engine related news. While we can't get as much news of China's Semi Cryogenic Engine Development as possible.


Though this is going quite off topic,but i agree with you.Their jingoistic nature is creating a lot of embarrassment to the government and the society at large.Even more than media i hold ISRO responsible for selectively leaking internal stuffs.I don't know what do they get out of this ?

As far as international reaction is concerned,we should be worrying more about Ukrainian reaction than US's reaction.

Testing an engine of Ukrainian design on Russian facilities,won't that create some political issues ?
10, 9, ignition sequence start 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engines running Lift off, we have a lift off, lift off

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #32 on: 08/14/2015 01:05 pm »
Quote
"We are looking at using Russian testing facilities for the semi-cryogenic engine. We will be ready with the engine [SCE-200] in six to eight months. Although we will have our own test facility at Mahendragiri, ours will take some time to come up."

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/russian-tieup-to-boost-isros-semicryogenic-launcher-plan/article7536263.ece

6-8 Months!!!!
« Last Edit: 08/14/2015 01:05 pm by antriksh »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline mightyprince

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #33 on: 08/14/2015 06:00 pm »
If the history in below link is true , then India is at loss as "it could not be copied, modified, upgraded, re-exporter nor transferred to a third party without the permission of Yuzhnoye "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200


For any higher thrust engine, India again needs to start from scratch.

Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #34 on: 08/14/2015 06:54 pm »
If the history in below link is true , then India is at loss as "it could not be copied, modified, upgraded, re-exporter nor transferred to a third party without the permission of Yuzhnoye "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200


For any higher thrust engine, India again needs to start from scratch.
I wrote that based on WikiLeaks cables of the Kiev US Embassy. That story happened during 2007/8. As you can see, it took the Indians 7/8 years to get to a test stand. That's because they had to figure out why each part worked the way it worked. All they got was a blue print, with no engineering explanations behind it. In fact, now there's a CFD software that ISRO is willing to sell. And there are a long list of pictures of ISRO testing from a single injector element to parts of the powerhead. They can build as many SCE-200 as they want, and they have learned a lot. Please remember that they have already developed a staged combustion engine (the CE-7.5). Without the Ukrainian connection, going straight to a ORSC 200tnf engine would have been almost crazy. But getting something that should work (Yuzhmash didn't built one, only designed it), helps you a lot in reverse engineering it.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #35 on: 08/15/2015 05:18 am »
If the history in below link is true , then India is at loss as "it could not be copied, modified, upgraded, re-exporter nor transferred to a third party without the permission of Yuzhnoye "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200


For any higher thrust engine, India again needs to start from scratch.

The information is that wikipedia article is outdated and misleading. As far as i am aware Ukraine supplied blueprints for certain components of the engine and provided input into the development of a certain alloy but ISRO still has the ability to upgrade and use the engine however they want. In fact there was some speculation sometime ago about the thurst being increased by 25% for application in a super HLV rocket however there are no official sources to back this up.

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #36 on: 08/21/2015 03:16 pm »
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #37 on: 09/21/2015 11:29 am »
Low Pressure Oxidiser Turbo pump, first major component manufactured for semicryo engine
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline kanaka

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #38 on: 09/21/2015 11:58 am »
Low Pressure Oxidiser Turbo pump, first major component manufactured for semicryo engine

Unit Testing Done!!?

Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #39 on: 09/21/2015 03:06 pm »
Low Pressure Oxidiser Turbo pump, first major component manufactured for semicryo engine

Unit Testing Done!!?

my guess is cold flow test is done as they are already talking about hot testing the engine in 6-8 months.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #40 on: 01/25/2016 09:11 am »
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-tamilnadu/cryogenic-engine-may-be-used-for-gslv-mkiii-by-yearend/article8149770.ece

Quote
The country could become self-reliant once the semi-cryogenic engine is developed, he said. IPRC has started the assembly, integration and testing facilities and is set to achieve a milestone in the next three years, he said.

The semi-cryogenic engine, using kerosene as fuel and liquid oxygen as oxidiser, is currently being designed and developed. The refined and purified kerosene to be used as fuel has been named as ‘isrosene’, the scientist said.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #41 on: 01/25/2016 01:07 pm »
So..this "Special Correspondent" gets to talk about semi cryo progress and doesn't check on status of upcoming tests abroad, gets to talk about air breathing tech doesn't check upon ATV-D02... AND is talking about this absolutely INANE stuff like Isrosene..and "One dollar per one kg by ESA" ??? Doesn't check on HAT tests OR C25 stage integration timeline either... I commented on article I doubt it'll get published.
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Offline Ohsin

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #42 on: 03/07/2016 11:24 am »
Some insight into manufacturing ;D

Quote
A new Brazing process for Semi-Cryo Engine established by ISRO

Manufacture of thrust chamber and pre-burner of Semi-Cryo engine requires joining of two shells by vacuum brazing. The inner shell is made of a copper alloy, whereas the outer shell is made of stainless steel. The inner shell has ribs on its outer surface which need to be joined to the inner shell. This joining is achieved by brazing which results in formation of active cooling channels in the finished hardware.

The usual process of brazing uses a metal foil placed between the two shells. When the assembly is heated, the foil melts and a braze joint is formed. This is a time consuming and labour intensive process. Moreover, the hardware has to be rotated during brazing to avoid accumulation of braze metal in the channels. In order to overcome these limitations, a new brazing process has been developed which involves the use of coated base metals. At appropriate brazing temperature, the sandwich layer melts and forms in-situ braze alloy between the joints. In the present development, an attempt is made to achieve braze joint through ‘static’ technique rather than hitherto followed method at ISRO of ‘rotary’ brazing.

For the thrust chamber, vacuum brazing is to be carried out between martensitic stainless steel and copper alloy. To form the braze joint, a layer of copper and silver coating is provided on the base materials to be joined. A schematic of the coating arrangement is given in Figure 1. Nickel coating is applied to act as a barrier between braze metal and steel. Figure 2 shows a cross section of electroplated steel and copper.

Initial experiments for process optimization were carried in coupon level in a vacuum furnace. Several such experiments were conducted to optimize the silver layer thickness, brazing temperature, brazing time and load. Using the optimized process, flat plates with milled channels were brazed to simulate thrust chamber configuration and pressure tested. Figure 3 shows the joint made with two flat plates. Pressure testing was done up to 600 bar and no de-bonding was observed after the pressure test.Subsequently, pre-burner prototype hardware were fabricated and coated for the performance evaluation. A differential pressure is essential to ensure proper hugging of the cylindrical hardware assembly. For this purpose a Vacuum compression setup was designed and fabricated in-house in VSSC (Figure 4 and 5).Using this setup, subscale hardware was realized and was evaluated through X-Ray radiography and was pressure tested by Semi Cryo Project team. It was confirmed that the hardware were free of blocks in the channels through X-Ray radiography. Pressure testing was done up to 500 bar and no de-bonding was observed. Figure 6 show the hardware and the cut cross section with typical rib fracture observed beyond 500 bar which implies the soundness of the brazed joint.

As it is a simpler process, brazing can be done at industries without any special equipment, and the advantages of this process are:

 • This is a simple method of applying coatings by electroplating in the channels thus avoiding use of costly braze foils
 • Time consuming and laborious brazing foil assembly on the contoured ribs is simplified.


http://www.isro.gov.in/new-brazing-process-semi-cryo-engine-established-isro
« Last Edit: 03/07/2016 11:25 am by Ohsin »
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Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #43 on: 03/16/2016 08:07 am »
Powder metallurgy seals for semi-cryo engine

Offline Ohsin

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #44 on: 04/28/2016 01:44 am »
"Well, three cheers to Sharma, but our real baby is INSAT."

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #45 on: 04/28/2016 02:27 am »
Some insight into manufacturing ;D

Quote

...Pressure testing was done up to 500 bar and no de-bonding was observed. Figure 6 show the hardware and the cut cross section with typical rib fracture observed beyond 500 bar which implies the soundness of the brazed joint.

As it is a simpler process, brazing can be done at industries without any special equipment, and the advantages of this process are:

 • This is a simple method of applying coatings by electroplating in the channels thus avoiding use of costly braze foils
 • Time consuming and laborious brazing foil assembly on the contoured ribs is simplified.


Yes, the electroplating steps they picked are very basic.  Thickness distribution limits were very generous.  I would like to know when they plan on hot testing this engine?   The pick of the braze filler is going to make this a relatively low temperature joint gated by the liquidus of the silver.  Higher temperature electroplated braze materials are available.  I can't be specific here, please understand. 

Furthermore, pressure testing to 500 bar will only likely test the joint in tension ( normal to the joint ) electroplated deposits often fail in shear, which will be experienced during hot fire.  Thermal gradients between inner & outer jackets, coupled with CTE mismatch between stainless and copper will also induce shear. 

Probably going to be just fine for semi-cryo engine. 


Offline antriksh

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #46 on: 04/30/2016 03:25 am »
Some insight into manufacturing ;D

Quote

...Pressure testing was done up to 500 bar and no de-bonding was observed. Figure 6 show the hardware and the cut cross section with typical rib fracture observed beyond 500 bar which implies the soundness of the brazed joint.

As it is a simpler process, brazing can be done at industries without any special equipment, and the advantages of this process are:

 • This is a simple method of applying coatings by electroplating in the channels thus avoiding use of costly braze foils
 • Time consuming and laborious brazing foil assembly on the contoured ribs is simplified.


Yes, the electroplating steps they picked are very basic.  Thickness distribution limits were very generous.  I would like to know when they plan on hot testing this engine?   The pick of the braze filler is going to make this a relatively low temperature joint gated by the liquidus of the silver.  Higher temperature electroplated braze materials are available.  I can't be specific here, please understand. 

Furthermore, pressure testing to 500 bar will only likely test the joint in tension ( normal to the joint ) electroplated deposits often fail in shear, which will be experienced during hot fire.  Thermal gradients between inner & outer jackets, coupled with CTE mismatch between stainless and copper will also induce shear. 

Probably going to be just fine for semi-cryo engine.

Hopefully, by end of this year testing would start.
Nasadiya Sukta:
Srishti se pehle sat nahin thaa, asat bhi nahin | Antariksh bhi nahin, aakaash bhi nahin thaa | chhipaa thaa kyaa, kahaan, kisne dhakaa thaa | us pal to agam, atal jal bhi kahaan thaa ||

From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #47 on: 05/28/2016 12:04 am »
From ISRO 2015-16 annual report:

Quote
Integrated Technical Reviews of semi cryogenic Engine by the National Expert Panel has ratified the engine specifications, system configuration and approach adopted for design of major engine sub-systems and the engine development/qualification plan.

Fabrication of engine subsystems i.e., Thrust Chamber, Mixing head, Main Turbo pump, Booster Turbo pumps, Pre-burner and Heat Exchanger are in progress. Cold flow tests (five tests in noncavitation mode) of Low Pressure Oxidiser Turbo Pump (LPOT) were conducted at newly established Cold Flow Test facility (CFT) at IPRC, Mahendragiri. Semi cryo pre burner single element injector hot tests (11 nos.) were also conducted demonstrating the ignition with hypergolic igniter and flame holding at very high mixture ratios.

Design of subscale Pre-Burner and Thrust Chamber is completed and realisation is in progress. Out of 21 types of engine control components, assembly and testing of 16 types have been completed. Assembly and testing of two types and fabrication of three types are in progress. Also, realisation of four types of control components for Hydraulic Actuation System (HAS) is in progress. Preliminary details of overall Stage configuration and stage engineering of Semi-cryo stage with 200 T propellant loading (SC 200) has been worked out.

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #48 on: 08/14/2016 04:20 am »
Isrosene commercial-scale production technology seems to be realized (HOCL 2014-15 annual report).

Quote
After initial trial runs on pilot scale the ‘In-house’ developed vapour phase continuous process for ISRO’s specific grade of Kerosene (Isrosene) was fine tuned. A model developed on laboratory scale was also verified on pilot plant scale. Regular runs with optimized parameters in ‘scaled down version’ of HOC’s commercial plant were successfully completed. The product quality from these runs has been re-affirmed and the capacity of the plant has also been established, based on these runs. The technology is now ready for implementation in HOC’s available commercial plant. In this regard meeting with ISRO was held. The detailed proposal was sent to ISRO. Company’s further contribution in IPR field is maintained and grant of three nos. of Indian patents has been obtained during this year.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #49 on: 09/13/2016 06:27 am »
ISRO propulsion complex presentation:

Main points

- 5 SCE-200 will be clustered to create SC-500 booster stage
- CE-20 cluster for high thrust + high impulse upper stage
- SCE-500 in turn could be clustered around a larger core to create a super heavy launcher
- S250 might replace S-200 in GSLV MK-3 (maybe)
- Plans to land rockets like spacex
- Air breathing tech being worked on
- First test fire of SCE-200 in one year
- 10 ton thrust methalox thruster in development
« Last Edit: 09/13/2016 06:36 am by K210 »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #50 on: 09/13/2016 07:50 am »
Attached is zip file of some screen captures. Resolution is not so good as the video is only 360p with the slides only partially filling the screen.
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Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #51 on: 09/13/2016 01:42 pm »
I wonder where they plan to do the first test firing of SCE-200. Is the new test facility at IPRC nearing completion?

Offline cave_dweller

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #52 on: 09/14/2016 12:21 am »
I wonder where they plan to do the first test firing of SCE-200. Is the new test facility at IPRC nearing completion?

Russia

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/russian-tieup-to-boost-isros-semicryogenic-launcher-plan/article7536263.ece

I am not sure why ROSCOSMOS doesn't partner more aggressively with India. India is a large market that can help sustain Russian space program by the way of shared costs.

And jointly both India and Russia can endeavor towards cutting edge space research instead of one attempting to re-invent the wheel and the other cutting down on space budgets.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #53 on: 09/23/2016 07:57 am »
First test firing of SCE-200 at IPRC is targeted for 3rd quarter 2017. Cold flow tests have already been completed and subsystem testing is underway.

This is going to be a massive leap for ISRO in terms of liquid fuel tech. To go from 76 tons thrust/270-290 sec impulse to 182 tons thrust/299 sec impulse is a jump to say the least. Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

Still with this engine india will have a single chamber RD-180 class engine. 

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #54 on: 09/23/2016 08:36 am »
Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

I thought an oxidiser rich cycle was full flow stage combustion?!! There are no gases/liquids that do not end up in the combustion chamber.
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Offline rocx

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #55 on: 09/23/2016 08:49 am »
Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

I thought an oxidiser rich cycle was full flow stage combustion?!! There are no gases/liquids that do not end up in the combustion chamber.

I thought the definition of full flow staged combustion is that all propellants go through the turbines, all fluids ending up in the combustion chamber happens in all types of staged combustion, as well as expander cycle. The difference between oxidiser rich and full flow staged combustion, according to my understanding of Wikipedia's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staged_combustion_cycle, is that in the first not all of the fuel goes through the turbines.
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Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #56 on: 09/23/2016 08:49 am »
Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

I thought an oxidiser rich cycle was full flow stage combustion?!! There are no gases/liquids that do not end up in the combustion chamber.
Please correct me on this if I'm wrong. From what I have heard, the advantage of an oxidizer-rich cycle (as against a fuel-rich cycle) is its higher efficiency and better performance characteristics, while the downside is that it is more corrossive to the engine parts and hence impacts reusability?
« Last Edit: 09/23/2016 08:51 am by vineethgk »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #57 on: 09/23/2016 08:55 am »
First test firing of SCE-200 at IPRC is targeted for 3rd quarter 2017. Cold flow tests have already been completed and subsystem testing is underway.

This is going to be a massive leap for ISRO in terms of liquid fuel tech. To go from 76 tons thrust/270-290 sec impulse to 182 tons thrust/299 sec impulse is a jump to say the least. Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

Still with this engine india will have a single chamber RD-180 class engine.
This would mean the upcoming test facilities for this engine in IPRC would be ready by then?

Btw, I guess the working equivalent for this engine would be the RD-191 (single chamber version of RD-180) which powers the Angara.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #58 on: 09/23/2016 08:56 am »
Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

I thought an oxidiser rich cycle was full flow stage combustion?!! There are no gases/liquids that do not end up in the combustion chamber.

ISRO themselves class it as a "Oxidiser rich staged combustion cycle"

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #59 on: 09/23/2016 09:01 am »
First test firing of SCE-200 at IPRC is targeted for 3rd quarter 2017. Cold flow tests have already been completed and subsystem testing is underway.

This is going to be a massive leap for ISRO in terms of liquid fuel tech. To go from 76 tons thrust/270-290 sec impulse to 182 tons thrust/299 sec impulse is a jump to say the least. Given the fact they are developing this engine with reusability in mind i wonder why they choose a oxidiser rich cycle instead of a full flow staged combustion cycle which is more efficient and exerts less stress on the engine and improves reusability as a result.

Still with this engine india will have a single chamber RD-180 class engine.
This would mean the upcoming test facilities for this engine in IPRC would be ready by then?

Btw, I guess the working equivalent for this engine would be the RD-191 (single chamber version of RD-180) which powers the Angara.

Yes from my research it seems like they have decided to skip testing in russia and test at their own facility. For the past year or so no mentions of testing in russia have surfaced so i am assuming this is the case.

Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #60 on: 09/23/2016 02:00 pm »
Oxidizer Rich Staged Combustion means passing through the preburner all the oxidizer mass and just enough fuel to convert it to hot gas of the maximum temperature that your turbine will support. Fuel Rich would the the opposite. Full flow means having two preburners, one oxidizer rich and one fuel rich.
With Kerosene you can't do fuel rich because RP-1 would polymerize at SC temperatures. But you can do FFSC with methalox, hydrolox and UDMH/N2H2. In fact, the only three FFSC powerpacks that reached a test stand that I know, each had a different propellant (RD-270->UDMH/N2H2, IPD->hydrolox , Raptor->methalox).
So once they decided to use kerosene/LOX, they had to do ORSC. But you could want to do ORSC even with methalox, like the BE-4 does. The reason is that you go with staged combustion to have more power at your pumps. And the turbines are thermal machines with power proportional to delta-t * mass flow.
Since your maximum temperature is always the same for Oxi rich and Fuel rich, your power could be very well approximated by specific heat * mass flow. Methane has better specific heat than oxygen, but you use 3.5 more mass of O2. When you do your numbers going ORSC gives you something like 20%~30% more power than Fuel rich for the methalox case.
Hydrogen has such a ridiculous high specific heat that you always want to go fuel rich.

Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #61 on: 09/23/2016 03:39 pm »
Let me add that staged combustion is a gas-liquid the injector (one element of the propellant is liquid and the other in gaseous state when injected into the main combustion chamber). Full flow is gas-gas.
Closed expander can be gas-gas or gas-liquid, and bleed expander is liquid-liquid.
Tap-off is liquid-liquid. So is electrically pumped (i.e. Rutherford).
Then you have the strange ones, like the RD-0162, that uses ORSC and fuel expander to be gas-gas.
So trying to be too strict is quite difficult given the engineers creativity.

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #62 on: 09/28/2016 01:51 am »
Mega launchers for ISRO soon

Quote
Pre-project work on what is called the SCE-200 began about four years back. "We plan to have an [semi-cryogenic] engine and stage capable of flight by the end of 2018 and try it on the GSLV-MkIII.
Quote
“The semi-cryogenic engine is getting fabricated. Testing of its pump and components has been going on. An engine testing facility is also getting set up at Mahendragiri,” Dr. Sivan said.
Quote
“The GSLV-MkIII that we plan to test in December has a core liquid fuel stage. When the semi-cryogenic engine gets ready, our plan is to replace the liquid stage with the SCE. We straightaway get six-tonne payload capability, two tonnes over what Mark III can give.”
Subsequently the plan is to have a modular vehicle (earlier called the unified launch vehicle) which allows variations suited to different payloads.
“We can have a bigger semicryogenic stage with clustered engines, similar to what SpaceX did using nine Merlin engines. We can then get a payload of 15 tonnes in the GTO.”

Offline kanaka

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #63 on: 09/28/2016 03:23 am »
Mega launchers for ISRO soon

Quote
Pre-project work on what is called the SCE-200 began about four years back. "We plan to have an [semi-cryogenic] engine and stage capable of flight by the end of 2018 and try it on the GSLV-MkIII.
Quote
“The semi-cryogenic engine is getting fabricated. Testing of its pump and components has been going on. An engine testing facility is also getting set up at Mahendragiri,” Dr. Sivan said.
Quote
“The GSLV-MkIII that we plan to test in December has a core liquid fuel stage. When the semi-cryogenic engine gets ready, our plan is to replace the liquid stage with the SCE. We straightaway get six-tonne payload capability, two tonnes over what Mark III can give.”
Subsequently the plan is to have a modular vehicle (earlier called the unified launch vehicle) which allows variations suited to different payloads.
“We can have a bigger semicryogenic stage with clustered engines, similar to what SpaceX did using nine Merlin engines. We can then get a payload of 15 tonnes in the GTO.”

is December Confirmed?

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #64 on: 09/28/2016 03:41 am »
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/780483391045021697?lang=en

Quote
Somanath: planning for GSLV Mark III launch in early 2017, as well as increasing GSLV and PSLV launch rates. #IAC2016

Offline sanman

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #65 on: 09/28/2016 10:15 pm »
I had a brief word with Mr Somnath (director LPSC) recently, asking him about the potential benefits of propellant densification (isrosene/LOX, hydrolox, methalox) for ISRO - he said the technology was certainly of interest to them.

Offline cave_dweller

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #66 on: 10/13/2016 05:52 pm »
Is the SCE-200 essentially a derivative of RD-810 from Yuzhnoye?

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200

The specifications are rather identical.


Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #67 on: 10/13/2016 09:33 pm »
Is the SCE-200 essentially a derivative of RD-810 from Yuzhnoye?

http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200

The specifications are rather identical.


From what I have been able to research, the SCE-200 is developed from blueprints sold by Yuzhnoye. That same blueprint could be sold by the Ukrainian as the RD-810, if they had the money to actually build and test the prototypes.
The YF-100 appears to have the same relationship with the RD-801.

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #68 on: 10/14/2016 09:15 pm »
Quote
The semi cryogenic engine, which would help the space vehicles to carry more payload is under development with the support of an international agency and would be ready in two years. There is a roadmap enhancing the capabilities of the Isro to carry upto 10 tonnes of payload in future, he said.

Source : Isro looking at putting a telescope on moon, says A S Kiran Kumar

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Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #69 on: 11/08/2016 08:41 pm »
ISRO Annual Report of 2015-2016 has some good information on Semi-Cryogenic Engine Development :

Quote

Page 6 :

Quote
This apart, research and development activities in semi-cryogenic propulsion engine, air breathing propulsion and re-usable launch vehicle technology are also being pursued in earnest in an effort towards reducing the cost of access to space. Development of critical technologies for undertaking human spaceflight has also made additional progress.

Page 13 :

Quote
The activities carried out at IPRC, Mahendragiri are: assembly, integration and testing of earth storable propellant engines, cryogenic engines and stages for launch vehicles; high altitude testing of upper stage engines and spacecraft thrusters as well as testing of its sub systems; production and supply of cryogenic propellants for Indian cryogenic rocket programme, etc. A Semi-cryogenic Cold Flow Test facility (SCFT) has been established at IPRC, Mahendragiri for the development, qualification and acceptance testing of semi-cryogenic engine subsystems.

Page 76 :

Quote
Space Transportation System

The Indian Space Programme has made successful transition in terms of technology acquisition and launch vehicle development in the last year. PSLV went on to become a favoured carrier for satellites of various countries due to its reliability and cost efficiency, promoting unprecedented international collaboration. The Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) with indigenous Cryogenic stage, graduated to become an operational vehicle for communication satellites. Future readiness is the key to maintaining an edge in technology and ISRO endeavours to optimise, accelerate and enhance its technologies through establishment of facilities and forging partnership with industries. ISRO is moving forward with the development of heavy lift launchers, human spaceflight, reusable launch vehicles, semi-cryogenic engines, etc., to cater to different payloads and an array of missions.

Page 79 & 80 :

Quote
Semi-cryogenic Project :

The semi-cryogenic Project envisages the design and development of a 2000 kN semi-cryogenic engine for a future heavy-lift Unified Launch Vehicle (ULV). The semi-cryogenic engine uses a combination of Liquid Oxygen (LOX) and ISROSENE (propellant-grade kerosene), which are eco-friendly and cost-effective propellants.

Integrated Technical Reviews of semi cryogenic Engine by the National Expert Panel has ratified the engine specifications, system configuration and approach adopted for design of major engine sub-systems and the engine development/qualification plan. Fabrication of engine subsystems i.e., Thrust Chamber, Mixing head, Main Turbo pump, Booster Turbo pumps, Pre-burner and Heat Exchanger are in progress. Cold flow tests (five tests in non-cavitation mode) of Low Pressure Oxidiser Turbo Pump (LPOT) were conducted at newly established Cold Flow Test facility (CFT) at IPRC, Mahendragiri. Semi cryo pre burner single element injector hot tests (11 nos.) were also conducted demonstrating the ignition with hypergolic igniter and flame holding 
at very high mixture ratios. 

Design of subscale Pre-Burner and Thrust Chamber is completed and realisation is in progress. Out of 21 types of engine control components, assembly and testing of 16 types have been completed. Assembly and testing of two types and fabrication of three types are in progress. Also, realisation of four types of control components for Hydraulic Actuation System (HAS) is in progress. Preliminary details of overall Stage configuration and stage engineering of Semi-cryo stage with 200 T propellant loading (SC 200) has been worked out.


Source :
ISRO Annual Report of 2015-2016

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Offline cosmiste

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #70 on: 12/11/2016 04:50 pm »
From a november publication of a meeting held on 27–28 February 2016 at VSSC !

Quote
V. Narayanan (Liquid Propulsion System Centre, Thiruvananthapuram) described the issues and problems in the development of liquid rocket engines and the role played by P. J. Paul at several stages. Amongst others, he spoke of issues with ignition in the gas generator section at low mixture ratio, and combustion instability problems of the new design of semi-cryo engine under development now. He emphasized that more theoretical studies were needed in respect of vacuum ignition of steering engine, ignition of gas generator at low mixture ratio, saw tooth pattern observed in the main thrust chamber after hot test and combustion instability modelling of semi-cryogenic engines for providing strength in making critical decisions in short duration high risk development of these engines.

Not so surprising, the development of the ox-rich preburner (refered as "gas generator at low mixture ratio" ?) seems to be a difficult way to go.

http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/111/09/1440.pdf

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #71 on: 01/15/2017 07:27 pm »
ANY NEWS REGARDING TESTING STATUS.
FROM OFFICIAL SOURCES [SCE-200]

Offline sanjaykumar

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #72 on: 01/17/2017 10:37 pm »

http://www.claws.in/1533/india-set-to-boost-the-lift-off-power-radhakrishna-rao.html#sthash.KNDtJoAZ.dpuf


Quote
As things stand now, the Indian semi-cryogenic engine stage is expected to be ready before the end of this decade. It was originally planned to be ready by the middle of this decade. 

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #73 on: 02/03/2017 02:36 am »
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=157921

Quote
Currently, the project for the development of Semicryogenic engine has been approved and the Semicryogenic engine is under development. The various activities carried out towards the development of the Semicryogenic engine include- (i) Indigenous realisation of 35 materials and 22 coating processes (ii) Qualification of indigenous bearings for turbo pumps (iii) Fabrication of the first hardware for three engine subsystems including low pressure turbo pumps and one high pressure turbo pump through industry (iv) Design validation of the low pressure turbo pumps through cold flow trials.
 
An advanced space launcher that can deliver ten-tonne and heavier communication satellites to space requires a booster stage with clustered Semicryogenic engines. After the successful qualification of the Semicryogenic engine, the development of the Semicryogenic booster stage with clustered engines is expected to be initiated.

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #74 on: 02/03/2017 12:24 pm »
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=157921

Quote
Currently, the project for the development of Semicryogenic engine has been approved and the Semicryogenic engine is under development. The various activities carried out towards the development of the Semicryogenic engine include- (i) Indigenous realisation of 35 materials and 22 coating processes (ii) Qualification of indigenous bearings for turbo pumps (iii) Fabrication of the first hardware for three engine subsystems including low pressure turbo pumps and one high pressure turbo pump through industry (iv) Design validation of the low pressure turbo pumps through cold flow trials.
 
An advanced space launcher that can deliver ten-tonne and heavier communication satellites to space requires a booster stage with clustered Semicryogenic engines. After the successful qualification of the Semicryogenic engine, the development of the Semicryogenic booster stage with clustered engines is expected to be initiated.


thank you very much for latest information.....
any possible upcoming test dates.......

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #75 on: 02/03/2017 12:31 pm »
Hopefully we have a test fire in russia before year end. SCE-200 is vital to ISRO from 2019 onwards.

Offline cosmiste

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #76 on: 02/22/2017 08:30 pm »
In case you'd like to build your own replica of all pumps of that engine (LPOT, LPFT and main Turbopump), all drawings are here  ::)
http://www.isro.gov.in/sites/default/files/tenders/01te_28092_fabn_semicryo_mockup_turbopump.pdf

Offline Danderman

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #77 on: 03/07/2017 12:12 am »
If the history in below link is true , then India is at loss as "it could not be copied, modified, upgraded, re-exporter nor transferred to a third party without the permission of Yuzhnoye "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCE-200


For any higher thrust engine, India again needs to start from scratch.

The information is that wikipedia article is outdated and misleading. As far as i am aware Ukraine supplied blueprints for certain components of the engine and provided input into the development of a certain alloy but ISRO still has the ability to upgrade and use the engine however they want. In fact there was some speculation sometime ago about the thurst being increased by 25% for application in a super HLV rocket however there are no official sources to back this up.

The bottom line here is that it seems that the Ukrainian licensed production of the Energomash RD-120 engine has resulted in the design of that engine spreading by osmosis to India and China and use in their programs. Funny how that happened.

Offline maint1234

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #78 on: 03/07/2017 01:07 am »
Still not funny as the wholescale import of German scientists by USA and UK after WW2 to form the foundation of NASA.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #79 on: 03/27/2017 04:29 am »
In a recent interview LPSC director casually mentioned they have began manufacturing the first test engine

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #80 on: 05/05/2017 03:18 pm »
In a recent interview LPSC director casually mentioned they have began manufacturing the first test engine

According to S. Somnath, LPSC Director, ISRO wants to test a semi-crygenic engine prototype in a year.

Quote
Considering that the global space market’s future will be defined by heavy lift boosters, it is imperative for Isro to develop the GSLV’s advanced avatars as soon as possible. The international launch scene is changing rapidly with newer launchers constantly pushing the bar higher on payload capability.

Isro scientists seem ready for the challenge and have set their sights on leapfrogging to GSLVs powered by semi-cryogenic engines. Fuelled by kerosene and liquid oxygen, these engines would be capable of lofting ten-ton satellites into space, cutting launch costs dramatically. "We expect to test the prototype of a semi-cryogenic engine in a year’s time," says Somnath. "And we may fly it by 2021. Engine development takes a very long time, at least 10 years for realisation."

Source :GSAT-9 launch:?With South Asia Satellite Isro moves into heavyweight category

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Offline sanman

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #81 on: 06/13/2017 02:49 am »

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #82 on: 06/13/2017 02:53 am »
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/jun/13/isro-to-flight-test-kerosene-based-semi-cryogenic-engine-by-2021-1615979.html

Quote
"Various tests are in progress on the engine. Of the four turbo pumps in it, three have undergone tests at the ISRO Propulsion Complex, Mahendragiri. We plan to have the engine ready by 2019 end, the stage by 2020-end and the first flight by 2021,’’ S Somanath, director, LPSC, said.

LPSC had developed the cryogenic engine for the GSLV Mk-II and the much powerful one for the GSLV Mk-III. The idea is to replace the second stage of the GSLV Mk-III, which now uses a liquid stage, with the semi-cryo. The rocket will retain the cryogenic upper, third stage.

The advantage of inducting the semi-cryogenic stage is the payload capacity of the GSLV Mk-III will increase from four tonnes to six tonnes. Using refined kerosene as fuel has quite a few advantages: It is eco-friendly and cost-effective.

Taking into account the '-end' suffix added to the dates (hinting it is more likely *optimistic* targets than what is *likely*) the revised targeted dates would be:

- SCE-200 engine ready by 2020+
- SC-200 stage by 2021+
- first flight by 2022+

There is also a project to cluster 4-5 of these engines to create a more powerful core for future heavy-lift launchers, but that would probably have to wait for much longer due to its inherent complexities, and the need to fabricate stages with a diameter of 5m or more.
« Last Edit: 06/13/2017 02:56 am by vineethgk »

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #83 on: 06/14/2017 11:26 am »
is sce-200 being built by isro based on re-usability in mind or not and recently “somanth lpsc director said sce-200 stage will be ready by 2021”

But why that much time why cont we replace GSLV Mark-III L110 liquid stage with sce-200 stage within 1 year after materializing sce-200 engine is it testing will take like 4 years from now…

but chines did it in after 2 years from initial prototype…
« Last Edit: 06/14/2017 12:38 pm by srikanthr124 »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #84 on: 06/14/2017 02:34 pm »
is sce-200 being built by isro based on re-usability in mind or not and recently “somanth lpsc director said sce-200 stage will be ready by 2021”

But why that much time why cont we replace GSLV Mark-III L110 liquid stage with sce-200 stage within 1 year after materializing sce-200 engine is it testing will take like 4 years from now…

but chines did it in after 2 years from initial prototype…
Current version in development is designed to be expendable with follow-on version designed to support reuse.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #85 on: 06/15/2017 12:32 pm »
is sce-200 being built by isro based on re-usability in mind or not and recently “somanth lpsc director said sce-200 stage will be ready by 2021”

But why that much time why cont we replace GSLV Mark-III L110 liquid stage with sce-200 stage within 1 year after materializing sce-200 engine is it testing will take like 4 years from now…

but chines did it in after 2 years from initial prototype…
Current version in development is designed to be expendable with follow-on version designed to support reuse.

Actually SCE-200 is being developed with reusability in mind. Each engine can be reused up to 15 times. 

Offline sanman

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #86 on: 06/15/2017 02:49 pm »
Current version in development is designed to be expendable with follow-on version designed to support reuse.

Actually SCE-200 is being developed with reusability in mind. Each engine can be reused up to 15 times.

I know the semi-cryo engine intended for use in the planned TSTO (Two-Stage-To-Orbit) vehicle is supposed to be reusable as  you've said, however it's not clear to me whether that engine is the same as the SCE-200, which is meant for replacing the GSLV-Mk3's L110 stage (UDMH/N2O4).

Logically, it might be practical for ISRO to first get SCE-200 non-reusably flying on GSLV-Mk3, which is an expendable launch vehicle, even while it works to achieve reusability on its semi-cryo engine meant for TSTO.

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #87 on: 06/15/2017 06:59 pm »
SEE THIS VIDEO IT HAS VERY INTERESTING INFORMATION ABOUT SCE-200 & CE-60 600KN CRYO ENGINE  AND MORE LATEST LPSC FEB 2017 LAST 5 MINUTES REGARDING RE-USABILITY AND MAN RATED ABILITY OF SCE-200

WHAT IS EVIDENT FROM THIS VIDEO IS THAT SCE-200 DESIGNED BASED ON RE-USABILITY IN MIND FROM SCRATCH ONWARDS AND ALSO MAN RATED,SO PROVISIONS FOR MULTIPLE ENGINE BURNS RESTARTS IN SPACE ARE ALSO TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION HE ALSO SAID UP TO 15 TIMES RE-USABILITY OF ENGINE IS POSSIBLE.... :)



« Last Edit: 06/16/2017 08:27 am by srikanthr124 »

Offline baldusi

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SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #88 on: 06/15/2017 08:43 pm »
Please understand that all modera rocket engines are somewhat reusable. The reusability is needed so it can be bench tested before installation, and do a graceful launch abort after ignition but before lift off.
It also helps enormously with testing and certification, since you need something close to 100 tests. Without reusability you'd need 100 engines, with 15 you could do away with less than 10.
But, the real question is the ease of refurbishment and the air starts and restart capability. And engine life, of course.
« Last Edit: 06/15/2017 08:44 pm by baldusi »

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #89 on: 06/16/2017 02:02 am »
Current version in development is designed to be expendable with follow-on version designed to support reuse.

Actually SCE-200 is being developed with reusability in mind. Each engine can be reused up to 15 times.

I know the semi-cryo engine intended for use in the planned TSTO (Two-Stage-To-Orbit) vehicle is supposed to be reusable as  you've said, however it's not clear to me whether that engine is the same as the SCE-200, which is meant for replacing the GSLV-Mk3's L110 stage (UDMH/N2O4).

Logically, it might be practical for ISRO to first get SCE-200 non-reusably flying on GSLV-Mk3, which is an expendable launch vehicle, even while it works to achieve reusability on its semi-cryo engine meant for TSTO.

All liquid fuel rocket engines are reusable to a certain extent. The CE-20 that was recently flown on MK-3 was fired 2-3 times before it was flight tested.

Offline vineethgk

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #90 on: 06/18/2017 03:10 am »
Confirmation on the targeted SCE-200 timelines, current state of tests and other associated activities

Quote
The testing facilities at the ISRO Propulsion Complex, Mahendragiri, are being augmented for the engine being developed by the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre here under a project codenamed SCE 200. Three of the four turbo pumps of the new engine have been tested and the pre-burner and thrust chamber are being readied for testing, LPSC Director S. Somanath told The Hindu.

Quote
ISRO scientists have simultaneously begun work on the stage configuration. ‘‘We hope to complete the development of the engine by 2019. The stage test is expected to take place by 2020, followed by the first flight test in 2021,’’ he said.

They appear to be considering a configuration with a clustered kerolox core and a more powerful hydrolox upper stage (either clustered CE-20 or a new, more powerful engine) rather than one powered by a single CE-20.
Quote
A clustered semi cryogenic booster with a more powerful cryogenic upper stage is another possibility. ‘‘Once we have mastered the technology, we could possibly go on to modular development of rockets with different configurations,’’ Mr. Somanath said.

On the necessary supporting tech and infrastructure
Quote
But before that, ISRO needs to ensure that critical technologies such as special materials and coatings, brazing process, kerosene refinement, combustion instability and control components are mastered and the necessary infrastructure is in place.
« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 03:12 am by vineethgk »

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #91 on: 06/18/2017 08:43 am »
Does any know what the name of GSLV Mk.III with the SCE200? Is it GSLV Mk.IV?
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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #92 on: 06/18/2017 09:42 am »
A 2-3 x SCE200 booster would handle GTO missions HSF to LEO without SRBs. Add there large SRBs with large US and 25-30t might be possible. For HSF the other possibility is flying Dreamchaser for SNC, its in need of low cost LV.


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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #93 on: 06/18/2017 10:59 am »
Does any know what the name of GSLV Mk.III with the SCE200? Is it GSLV Mk.IV?
They haven't mentioned any names so far, but it could very well be GSLV MkIV going by their 'functional' naming convention. Unless of course, they plan to use that core with smaller solids to create a family of launchers (Unified Launch Vehicle - ULV) to replace PSLV and GSLV-II as well, in which case the rocket could be named ULV-xx.

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #94 on: 10/23/2017 01:31 pm »
According to ISRO fully integrated SCE-200 will be delivered ready for testing by the end of year. A hot fire should take place between Jan-June 2018 depending on readiness of new testing facility.

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #95 on: 10/26/2017 11:40 pm »
According to ISRO fully integrated SCE-200 will be delivered ready for testing by the end of year. A hot fire should take place between Jan-June 2018 depending on readiness of new testing facility.

from where do you got this information...it is really a very good news but i am unable to find anything regarding this news on Internet...

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #96 on: 10/28/2017 01:37 am »
According to ISRO fully integrated SCE-200 will be delivered ready for testing by the end of year. A hot fire should take place between Jan-June 2018 depending on readiness of new testing facility.

from where do you got this information...it is really a very good news but i am unable to find anything regarding this news on Internet...

I have internal sources from ISRO.....

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #97 on: 10/28/2017 10:48 am »
According to ISRO fully integrated SCE-200 will be delivered ready for testing by the end of year. A hot fire should take place between Jan-June 2018 depending on readiness of new testing facility.

from where do you got this information...it is really a very good news but i am unable to find anything regarding this news on Internet...

I have internal sources from ISRO.....

Thank you for prompt reply hoping everything would go as per schedule.......
Best Wishes to ISRO & LPSC team...Good Luck!...

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #98 on: 01/10/2018 01:52 pm »
http://russianspaceweb.com/rd810.html
Quote
Ukraine to test components of a powerful Indian rocket engine

The Yuzhmash production plant in Ukraine prepares to begin a series of firings testing critical parts of a large rocket engine intended for India's next-generation heavy launcher. Although it was built entirely in India, the prospective engine was originally designed in Ukraine under designation RD-810.

....

Foreign roles for RD-810

Over the years, various roles were proposed for RD-810, including replacing the Russian RD-171 on the Ukrainian-built Zenit rocket and propelling Ukraine's new-generation Mayak launcher. A four-engine cluster, dubbed RD-810M, was designed to fit into the aft section of a potential space booster with a diameter 3.9 meters, matching the caliber of the Zenit rocket. Each RD-810 was expected to gimbal up to six degrees around one axis, allowing the four-engine cluster to fully steer the rocket.

Because none of the indigenous programs could be adequately funded, Ukraine sought to bring the RD-810 design to the international market. Along with several other Ukrainian designs, the RD-810 was proposed for the American super-heavy rocket developed under the Space Launch System, SLS, program. However, despite qualifying RD-810 as in high degree of readiness, American space officials did not seriously consider Ukrainian engines for the SLS project.

Indian version

In 2005, Ukraine agreed to provide India with designs for the RD-810 engine and, on Nov. 20, 2006, the Indian Space Research Organization, ISRO, awarded a contract to KB Yuzhnoe for a project code-named Jasmine, which officially started the development of the RD-810. In India, the RD-810-based engine was dubbed SC-200, which stood for "semi-cryogenic," indicating the use of kerosene fuel, which can be stored at regular temperatures, and liquid oxygen, which requires cryogenic conditions to stay in liquid form. The "200" in the designation denoted its thrust of 200 tons.

ISRO planned to install the SC-200 engine on the modified core stage of the GSLV Mark 3 rocket replacing the older propulsion system. It would boost the payload capacity of the rocket to the geostationary transfer orbit from four to six tons. Later, four similar engines could propel a new-generation rocket, which could deliver up to 10 tons to the same orbit without the help of strap-on boosters.

In addition to assisting with the design of the engine, KB Yuzhnoe also advised ISRO on the development of the prospective launch vehicle itself.

As of 2014, KB Yuzhnoe had produced the full set of design documentation required for the production and testing of the engine. (809) According to industry sources, India then re-issued the blueprints for the engine according to its own standards and, possibly, introduced some modifications.

In the meantime, KB Yuzhnoe decided to stop further development of the RD-810 engine inside Ukraine, focusing instead its limited resources on the more powerful RD-815 design, which could potentially be promising on the US market.

Testing RD-810

In 2017, Indian specialists returned to Ukraine to test fire the actual hardware, which had been built in India within the Jasmine project. According to industry sources, the Ukrainian Yuzhmash factory was contracted to test, not the entire engine, but its critical components, including its gas generator and a turbopump, which had all been manufactured in India. If the firings, apparently planned to be completed by 2019, validated the quality of the Indian manufacturing methods, the fully assembled engine, including the combustion chamber and the nozzle, would be tested at the yet-to-be completed bench facility at Mahendragiri, India.

...

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #99 on: 01/11/2018 03:19 am »
Seems like India will have a fine engine for an RLV. Just cluster seven SC-200s like Blue Origin is doing with their BE-4 for the first stage.
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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #100 on: 01/11/2018 04:17 am »
Seems like India will have a fine engine for an RLV. Just cluster seven SC-200s like Blue Origin is doing with their BE-4 for the first stage.
They have been toying with a design having a cluster of 5 engines for the first stage. Not sure if they can use the central engine for propulsive recovery in that configuration though. I'm guessing the engine would need to be capable of burning at a much lower than nominal thrust for that to work out.

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #101 on: 01/17/2018 02:54 pm »
Seems like India will have a fine engine for an RLV. Just cluster seven SC-200s like Blue Origin is doing with their BE-4 for the first stage.
They have been toying with a design having a cluster of 5 engines for the first stage. Not sure if they can use the central engine for propulsive recovery in that configuration though. I'm guessing the engine would need to be capable of burning at a much lower than nominal thrust for that to work out.

Maybe hoverslam can compensate for throttleability?

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #102 on: 01/17/2018 05:40 pm »
They may go VTOHL. Already proved they can do HL. HL doesn't scale like VL but it is easier to get right first time and that is important R&D cost saving.

If VTOHL booster can deliver 4t GTO or 10t LEO, that is most of commercial market. For bigger LV use two fly back boosters with expendable core.

Offline GreenShrike

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #103 on: 01/17/2018 06:18 pm »
Seems like India will have a fine engine for an RLV. Just cluster seven SC-200s like Blue Origin is doing with their BE-4 for the first stage.
They have been toying with a design having a cluster of 5 engines for the first stage. Not sure if they can use the central engine for propulsive recovery in that configuration though. I'm guessing the engine would need to be capable of burning at a much lower than nominal thrust for that to work out.

Maybe hoverslam can compensate for throttleability?


Well, F9 can do a 3-engine landing burn, though the 1-3-1 sequence probably averages closer to the overall effect of a 2-engine burn. 2 of a 9 engine cluster is 22% thrust versus the 20% of a 1/5, so the answer is possibly yes, though it'd be a toasty, short duration, high-g burn, with little margin and high risk.

If throttleability is an issue, then a 7-engine cluster is likely safer.

Some very rough math shows a 5 x SCE-200 + 2 x CE-20 can do ~30-33t to LEO while 7 x SCE-200 + 2-3 x CE-20 can do 40-45t. With a 33-50% penalty for first stage recovery, you're looking at a ~15-22t or ~20-30t semi-reusable launcher. If CE-20s aren't too expensive, then 3 on the 7-engine booster would push its second stage comfortably above Centaur-class T/W levels, and at 66% remaining thrust, give the stage a fighting chance at completing the mission in the event of a single-engine failure.

With the flight cost differences between the two being only additional fuel, stretched tanks on the 7-engine booster's S2, refurb on two more booster engines and possibly an extra CE-20, I can see why Steven suggested going with (and Blue actually did chose) the 7-engine booster.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #104 on: 01/17/2018 11:51 pm »
Current version in development is designed to be expendable with follow-on version designed to support reuse.

Actually SCE-200 is being developed with reusability in mind. Each engine can be reused up to 15 times.

I know the semi-cryo engine intended for use in the planned TSTO (Two-Stage-To-Orbit) vehicle is supposed to be reusable as  you've said, however it's not clear to me whether that engine is the same as the SCE-200, which is meant for replacing the GSLV-Mk3's L110 stage (UDMH/N2O4).

Logically, it might be practical for ISRO to first get SCE-200 non-reusably flying on GSLV-Mk3, which is an expendable launch vehicle, even while it works to achieve reusability on its semi-cryo engine meant for TSTO.

All liquid fuel rocket engines are reusable to a certain extent. The CE-20 that was recently flown on MK-3 was fired 2-3 times before it was flight tested.
There are issues if you choose to do thrust chamber or nozzle cooling with ablative linings, as used on the Merlin 1a, RS68 the Lance missile engines, despite all being liquid propellants.
Seems like India will have a fine engine for an RLV. Just cluster seven SC-200s like Blue Origin is doing with their BE-4 for the first stage.
They have been toying with a design having a cluster of 5 engines for the first stage. Not sure if they can use the central engine for propulsive recovery in that configuration though. I'm guessing the engine would need to be capable of burning at a much lower than nominal thrust for that to work out.
Actually the real achievement of this engine has happened before it has reached a test stand.

ISRO have managed to transfer manufacturing techniques to India and make the engine in India, something which the US failed to do with the RD180, despite having 16 years to do so.  :(

Even if the engine fails to hit it's Isp and thrust targets (I don't expect it will)  that alone is a major achievement for the Indian rocket engineering community.  :)

The spec page for the 810 (from which SCE-200 is descended)
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/marching/rd-810/
Suggests it's roughly a ORSC cycle with Merlin 1d level thrust. Not just SC, Oxygen rich SC.

It might be interesting to compare the development budget of the SC-200 with AJR AR-1.

It's an academic question now but I wonder, if SCE-200 has started earlier would India be deemed a viable supplier of engines for the booster stage of Vulcan? I guess we'll never know.
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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #105 on: 01/18/2018 01:58 am »





Some very rough math shows a 5 x SCE-200 + 2 x CE-20 can do ~30-33t to LEO while 7 x SCE-200 + 2-3 x CE-20 can do 40-45t. With a 33-50% penalty for first stage recovery, you're looking at a ~15-22t or ~20-30t semi-reusable launcher. If CE-20s aren't too expensive, then 3 on the 7-engine booster would push its second stage comfortably above Centaur-class T/W levels, and at 66% remaining thrust, give the stage a fighting chance at completing the mission in the event of a single-engine failure.


Are you sure of your maths, SCE200 is about same as Merlin and F9 is about 20t to LEO.

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #106 on: 01/18/2018 02:58 am »
They may go VTOHL. Already proved they can do HL. HL doesn't scale like VL but it is easier to get right first time and that is important R&D cost saving.

If VTOHL booster can deliver 4t GTO or 10t LEO, that is most of commercial market. For bigger LV use two fly back boosters with expendable core.

Yeah, the TSTO design which has long been planned as India's first RLV, is supposed to be VTHL - but I don't see how deep throttleability becomes a major requirement for that.
« Last Edit: 01/18/2018 11:30 am by sanman »

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #107 on: 01/18/2018 09:23 am »
Updated specs of SCE-200 engine: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rd810.html

In short:

New SL Thrust: 194 tons

New Vacuum thrust: 211 tons

New SL ISP: 303 seconds

New vacuum ISP: 330 seconds

Offline GreenShrike

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #108 on: 01/19/2018 12:02 am »
Are you sure of your maths, SCE200 is about same as Merlin and F9 is about 20t to LEO.

Yup. As K210 indicated, if you look it up, you'll actually see that Merlin is 900kN, while SCE-200 is ~2MN. As such, the SCE-200 is a bit over twice the size of the Merlin 1D, and most of the size of the ~2.4MN BE-4.

Now add the fact that it's staged combustion and thus gives a decent ISP increase over Merlin's GG cycle, and you have a rather nice engine. That is, assuming it turns out to be reliable -- which I'm hopeful for, as russianspaceweb describes it as "an equivalent of the Russian RD-191 engine, but using a more conservative engineering approach." A conservative approach seems quite reasonable for India's first crack at producing a high performance kerolox engine.


Given the performance, the math also intuitively works out since a bit over twice the thrust per engine over Merlin means a 7 x SCE-200 should, once factoring in needing less booster prop due to the higher ISP, as well as using a high energy upper stage, do about twice what an F9 can do.


And then India can steal from ULA's ACES playbook and start flying hydrolox tankers on top of 7 x SCE-200 boosters to refuel already orbited CE-20 upper stages, except ISRO will have a cheaply reusable booster, and ULA will be flying expendable Vulcans -- but I guess I'm straying off topic... ;-)
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Online TrevorMonty

Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #109 on: 01/19/2018 12:04 pm »
I was thinking 200klbs not 200t thats where I went wrong.

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #110 on: 06/07/2018 08:24 pm »
Isro gets nod for semi-cryogenic engine, will boost GSLV’s lift capability by 1 tonne.

Quote
“After a presentation before the Space Commission, Isro has got the approval for developing the semi-cryogenic rocket stage. The deadline to develop this stage is 29 months. Once the stage is ready, the carrying capability of GSLV Mk III will increase from the existing four tonnes to five tonnes.”

I thought after replacing L110 stage with SCE-200 stage MK3 launch vehicle performance would increase like in the range of around 2000kg.But according above news article they are saying about only 1000kg improvement is this is directly from ISRO are reporter made it out of his own thinking..

Isro chairman K Sivan said nothing about exact amount of payload improvement....

« Last Edit: 06/07/2018 08:47 pm by srikanthr124 »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #111 on: 06/07/2018 09:43 pm »
Isro gets nod for semi-cryogenic engine, will boost GSLV’s lift capability by 1 tonne.

Quote
“After a presentation before the Space Commission, Isro has got the approval for developing the semi-cryogenic rocket stage. The deadline to develop this stage is 29 months. Once the stage is ready, the carrying capability of GSLV Mk III will increase from the existing four tonnes to five tonnes.”

I thought after replacing L110 stage with SCE-200 stage MK3 launch vehicle performance would increase like in the range of around 2000kg.But according above news article they are saying about only 1000kg improvement is this is directly from ISRO are reporter made it out of his own thinking..

Isro chairman K Sivan said nothing about exact amount of payload improvement....


maybe that is the initial improvement with increases on each flight or upgrade to boosters and second stage to increase to 6 tons.

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #112 on: 06/08/2018 04:37 am »
Isro gets nod for semi-cryogenic engine, will boost GSLV’s lift capability by 1 tonne.

Quote
“After a presentation before the Space Commission, Isro has got the approval for developing the semi-cryogenic rocket stage. The deadline to develop this stage is 29 months. Once the stage is ready, the carrying capability of GSLV Mk III will increase from the existing four tonnes to five tonnes.”

I thought after replacing L110 stage with SCE-200 stage MK3 launch vehicle performance would increase like in the range of around 2000kg.But according above news article they are saying about only 1000kg improvement is this is directly from ISRO are reporter made it out of his own thinking..

Isro chairman K Sivan said nothing about exact amount of payload improvement....

The 6 ton to GTO figure will only be achieved after all upgrades have been carried out. In the upcoming D2 flight GTO capacity will go up from 4 ton to 4.4 tons so the SC-200 stage should increase it to around 5.4 ton. The remaining 0.6 ton will have to come from improving the C-25 stage and other general enhancements.

After all upgrades have been carried out MK-3 should have a GTO payload capacity of at least 5.5 tons.

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #113 on: 06/08/2018 08:42 pm »
Is it SCE-200 engine manufacturing came near to completion by Godrej Industries or still individual component testing is going on at Ukraine facilities....and what about  Mahendragiri test facilities status...anybody have any insider information...
« Last Edit: 06/08/2018 08:55 pm by srikanthr124 »

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #114 on: 06/09/2018 07:46 am »
Is it SCE-200 engine manufacturing came near to completion by Godrej Industries or still individual component testing is going on at Ukraine facilities....and what about  Mahendragiri test facilities status...anybody have any insider information...

Your question related answers can be found in the following link.

ISRO to bank on semi-cryogenic engine for heavy lift rockets

Quote
The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has progressed to the testing of subsystems in the development of a semi-cryogenic engine for rockets with heavier payload capacity.

The testing facilities at the ISRO Propulsion Complex, Mahendragiri, are being augmented for the engine being developed by the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre here under a project codenamed SCE 200. Three of the four turbo pumps of the new engine have been tested and the pre-burner and thrust chamber are being readied for testing, LPSC Director S. Somanath told The Hindu.

Quote
ISRO scientists have simultaneously begun work on the stage configuration. "We hope to complete the development of the engine by 2019. The stage test is expected to take place by 2020, followed by the first flight test in 2021," he said.

--- [ --- ]

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #115 on: 06/09/2018 01:11 pm »
ISRO is aiming for a hot fire of SCE-200 in 2019. I remember reading some articles in 2016 which quoted the then head of LPSC stating the reason for the delay being problems with the oxidiser rich staged combustion cycle, specially some combustion instability issues. Hopefully those problems have been solved and the SCE-200 is ready for testing next year. 

Offline srikanthr124

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #116 on: 06/09/2018 08:03 pm »
---,K210

THANKS FOR THE INFO

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #117 on: 07/04/2018 06:45 pm »
2 X SCE-200 (Clustered) --> SC400 Stage

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #118 on: 07/05/2018 06:02 am »
2 X SCE-200 (Clustered) --> SC400 Stage

Looks like at least three engines on the first stage.
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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #119 on: 07/05/2018 06:13 am »
2 X SCE-200 (Clustered) --> SC400 Stage

SC400 has four engines
« Last Edit: 07/05/2018 08:52 am by K210 »

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #120 on: 07/05/2018 10:16 am »
Is that a capsule on top?.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #121 on: 07/05/2018 05:23 pm »
Is that a capsule on top?.

yes.
2 X SCE-200 (Clustered) --> SC400 Stage
HLV is 2 X SCE-200 (Clustered) --> SC200 Stage

HLV-HSP is 4 X SCE-200 (Clustered) --> SC400 Stage

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #122 on: 07/17/2018 10:47 pm »
Mr. S. Somnath, the director of VSSC has said that the Semi Cryo Engine is ready for trial.

Source : Upgraded Vikas engine will soon boost ISRO's rockets

Quote
Mr. Somanath said that, eventually, ISRO will phase out Vikas by replacing it first in Mk-III with a cleaner and safer semi-cryogenic engine. The semi-cryo engine is ready for trial; its stage has just been approved. "I cannot predict when it [the replacement] can happen," he said.

--- [ --- ]
« Last Edit: 07/18/2018 07:25 am by worldtimedate »

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #123 on: 07/18/2018 02:39 am »
Mr. S. Somnath, the director of VSSC has said that the Semi Cryo Engine is ready for trial.

Source : Upgraded Vikas engine will soon boost ISRO's rockets

Quote
Mr. Somanath said that, eventually, ISRO will phase out Vikas by replacing it first in Mk-III with a cleaner and safer semi-cryogenic engine. The semi-cryo engine is ready for trial; its stage has just been approved. "I cannot predict when it [the replacement] can happen," he said.


Link is going to Australian order. Looks like the correct link is:
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/upgraded-vikas-engine-will-soon-boost-isros-rockets/article24436241.ece


--- [ --- ]

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #124 on: 07/18/2018 06:42 am »
Hmm, I wonder if that means the SCE-200 will also replace the Vikas engine on PSLV.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline worldtimedate

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #125 on: 07/18/2018 07:27 am »
Link is going to Australian order. Looks like the correct link is:
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/upgraded-vikas-engine-will-soon-boost-isros-rockets/article24436241.ece

Thanks for detecting the wrong Url.

Offline PonRam

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #126 on: 08/24/2018 05:47 am »
With SCE-200 being a new engine, could ISRO have used 3D printing for any of its components? or Are they already doing it? Does anybody know?

When is the hotfire tests of the SCE-200 expected? Anybody has any inside info?
« Last Edit: 08/24/2018 12:00 pm by PonRam »

Offline ZachS09

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #127 on: 08/25/2018 08:13 pm »
Hmm, I wonder if that means the SCE-200 will also replace the Vikas engine on PSLV.

If the SCE-200 engine does replace the Vikas 2B engine on the PSLV second stage, it would take a very long time to modify the fuel and oxidizer tanks (as well as the plumbing needed to hook up the new engine) in order for them to store kerosene and liquid oxygen.
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Offline chota

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #128 on: 09/19/2019 05:37 am »
> The semi-cryogenic engine is fully ready now, S Somnath, Director, VSSC
> When ready for operation, the semi-cryo will raise ISRO’s carrying capacity from 4 tonnes to 6 tonnes, all the way up to the Geosynchronous orbit, 36,000 km above earth

Source : https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/science/isro-moves-on-gears-up-to-test-semi-cryogenic-engine-in-ukraine/article29451601.ece#

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #129 on: 09/19/2019 08:17 am »
Great news. Hope ISRO does not make us wait another 6 months before doing the tests.

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #130 on: 09/22/2019 02:08 am »
Test facility at LPSC is still 6-12 months away from completion. They might do the first few tests in Russia instead....

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #131 on: 12/21/2019 11:51 pm »
Hopefully we get to see the first test firings of this engine next year. A full decade of development at this point.

Offline Salo

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #132 on: 11/29/2020 10:19 am »
Presumably SCE-200 on 7:35

« Last Edit: 11/29/2020 10:27 am by Salo »

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #133 on: 11/29/2020 10:11 pm »
^^^Design looks very different compared to renders from recent years, are you sure that is SCE-200 and not some other engine?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #134 on: 11/29/2020 11:48 pm »
^^^Design looks very different compared to renders from recent years, are you sure that is SCE-200 and not some other engine?
It is very clearly RD-120 Family. The engine version that was used for Ukrainian fork of RD-120 Family development might be what is shown there. Also was a version developed in response to AJ-26 failure and larger version for LRB competition of SLS but since foreign made was not taken seriously by the US. Russian Space Web archives some versions well. The Russian successor fork of the former joint  Soviet RD-120 family is here however MoD RD-120K version is omitted: https://www.trade.glavkosmos.com/catalog/launch-vehicles/engines/liquid-fuel-rocket-engine/

Offline K210

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #135 on: 11/30/2020 06:26 am »
^^^Design looks very different compared to renders from recent years, are you sure that is SCE-200 and not some other engine?
It is very clearly RD-120 Family. The engine version that was used for Ukrainian fork of RD-120 Family development might be what is shown there. Also was a version developed in response to AJ-26 failure and larger version for LRB competition of SLS but since foreign made was not taken seriously by the US. Russian Space Web archives some versions well. The Russian successor fork of the former joint  Soviet RD-120 family is here however MoD RD-120K version is omitted: https://www.trade.glavkosmos.com/catalog/launch-vehicles/engines/liquid-fuel-rocket-engine/

SCE-200 is based on RD-810 not RD-120. Either way if it is SCE-200 in that video then we can expect ground tests to start next year.
« Last Edit: 11/30/2020 06:27 am by K210 »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #136 on: 11/30/2020 03:38 pm »
^^^Design looks very different compared to renders from recent years, are you sure that is SCE-200 and not some other engine?
It is very clearly RD-120 Family. The engine version that was used for Ukrainian fork of RD-120 Family development might be what is shown there. Also was a version developed in response to AJ-26 failure and larger version for LRB competition of SLS but since foreign made was not taken seriously by the US. Russian Space Web archives some versions well. The Russian successor fork of the former joint  Soviet RD-120 family is here however MoD RD-120K version is omitted: https://www.trade.glavkosmos.com/catalog/launch-vehicles/engines/liquid-fuel-rocket-engine/

SCE-200 is based on RD-810 not RD-120. Either way if it is SCE-200 in that video then we can expect ground tests to start next year.
RD-870 is the RD-120 copy.

https://yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/steering/rd-810/
« Last Edit: 11/30/2020 03:39 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline baldusi

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #137 on: 11/30/2020 05:44 pm »
^^^Design looks very different compared to renders from recent years, are you sure that is SCE-200 and not some other engine?
It is very clearly RD-120 Family. The engine version that was used for Ukrainian fork of RD-120 Family development might be what is shown there. Also was a version developed in response to AJ-26 failure and larger version for LRB competition of SLS but since foreign made was not taken seriously by the US. Russian Space Web archives some versions well. The Russian successor fork of the former joint  Soviet RD-120 family is here however MoD RD-120K version is omitted: https://www.trade.glavkosmos.com/catalog/launch-vehicles/engines/liquid-fuel-rocket-engine/

SCE-200 is based on RD-810 not RD-120. Either way if it is SCE-200 in that video then we can expect ground tests to start next year.
RD-870 is the RD-120 copy.

https://yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/steering/rd-810/
RD-120 was developed by Energomash working hip to hip with Yuzhnoye. After the RD-120K, Yuzhnoye designed their copy, he RD-870. Then an uprated single nozzle derivative, the RD-801. When trying to replace the RD-170 in the Zenith, they developed an uprated version of that, called the RD-810. And they sold those blueprints (but no method nor material formulas) to ISRO for the SCE-200. It is not clear if said development was paid by ISRO. What is known, is that RD-801/810 are mostly "theoretical" engines that were never built, much less tested and actually certified for operations.
A little tidbit: apparently the Chinese got hold of a few copies of the RD-120 (throu a Russian company), and that's what they based their YF-100/115 engine on.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #138 on: 11/30/2020 07:34 pm »
^^^Design looks very different compared to renders from recent years, are you sure that is SCE-200 and not some other engine?
It is very clearly RD-120 Family. The engine version that was used for Ukrainian fork of RD-120 Family development might be what is shown there. Also was a version developed in response to AJ-26 failure and larger version for LRB competition of SLS but since foreign made was not taken seriously by the US. Russian Space Web archives some versions well. The Russian successor fork of the former joint  Soviet RD-120 family is here however MoD RD-120K version is omitted: https://www.trade.glavkosmos.com/catalog/launch-vehicles/engines/liquid-fuel-rocket-engine/

SCE-200 is based on RD-810 not RD-120. Either way if it is SCE-200 in that video then we can expect ground tests to start next year.
RD-870 is the RD-120 copy.

https://yuzhnoye.com/en/technique/rocket-engines/steering/rd-810/
RD-120 was developed by Energomash working hip to hip with Yuzhnoye. After the RD-120K, Yuzhnoye designed their copy, he RD-870. Then an uprated single nozzle derivative, the RD-801. When trying to replace the RD-170 in the Zenith, they developed an uprated version of that, called the RD-810. And they sold those blueprints (but no method nor material formulas) to ISRO for the SCE-200. It is not clear if said development was paid by ISRO. What is known, is that RD-801/810 are mostly "theoretical" engines that were never built, much less tested and actually certified for operations.
A little tidbit: apparently the Chinese got hold of a few copies of the RD-120 (throu a Russian company), and that's what they based their YF-100/115 engine on.
RD-880 is their RD-180 derivative.
All of the Ukrainian derivatives of the original USSR/CIS joint engine families are listed on the left-hand side of the Yuzhnoye website section I linked. They are developed to the hardware stage and with the factors of the last decade are slowly testing them once the knowledge has been fine tuned  (EU replacement metallurgy programme and modernisation programme etc). They are developing and testing the direct copies then modernizing the design to 2st century standards and manufacture and then will market those versions. They are replacing all of their previous joint engines with their domestic counterparts. And developing upper stage replacements for those that were used on their previous joint projects whilst working towards developing their own proprietary green propellants to replace highly toxic ones and develop an improved Ukrainian RG-1/Sintin replacement similar to Russia's GHG emissions tweaked Naphtil (Naftil) and Sintin. Hydrolox, Metholox and other types are in the long term development plan.

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #139 on: 03/03/2022 12:59 am »
Quote
There have been reports that Yuzhnoye Design Office in Ukraine has been destroyed. Yuzhnoye is the manufacturer of the 1st stage Antares tank, so if these reports are true, then Antares will never be able to launch again after NG-19.

https://twitter.com/SpaceAtWallops/status/1497231580217098243

https://twitter.com/JURISTnews/status/1496847074465357825
[zubenelgenubi: This tweet was determined false.]


SCE-200 might be indefinitely delayed now...
« Last Edit: 03/07/2022 04:58 am by zubenelgenubi »

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #140 on: 03/07/2022 04:20 am »
Quote
There have been reports that Yuzhnoye Design Office in Ukraine has been destroyed. Yuzhnoye is the manufacturer of the 1st stage Antares tank, so if these reports are true, then Antares will never be able to launch again after NG-19.

https://twitter.com/SpaceAtWallops/status/1497231580217098243

https://twitter.com/JURISTnews/status/1496847074465357825


SCE-200 might be indefinitely delayed now...
Aren't we building our own testing facility?

[zubenelgenubi: The jurist tweet was determined false.]
« Last Edit: 03/07/2022 04:59 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #141 on: 03/19/2022 07:08 am »
Quote
To meet ISRO’s objective of achieving higher payloads of 5 tonnes and above in GTO, a powerful, efficient and eco friendly stage was envisaged and this led to the development of Semi cryogenic engine and stage. LPSC has configured and designed a semi-cryogenic core stage, dimensionally optimized to replace the L110 stage of GSLV Mk III. The stage with 120 tonnes of propellant loading and powered by a single SE2000 engine producing a thrust of 200 tonnes will enable GSLV Mk III to carry more than 5.1 tonnes of payload to GTO. Semi-cryogenic engines operate on purified Kerosene (Isrosene) and Liquid Oxygen as propellants and is a combination of high performance, cost-effectiveness, high density impulse and eco friendliness.

The engine and stage development is presently at an advanced stage. Engine and stage systems/subsystems have been realised and further testing, qualification and flight stage delivery are progressing as planned.

From: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=56051.0

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #142 on: 03/19/2022 07:23 am »
Relatively old news: https://www.deccanherald.com/city/top-bengaluru-stories/hal-delivers-heaviest-semi-cryogenic-propellant-tank-to-isro-1038505.html

Quote
HAL delivers heaviest semi-cryogenic propellant tank to Isro

The heaviest semi-cryogenic propellant tank (SC120-LOX) ever fabricated by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has been delivered to the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro).

The semi cryo-liquid oxygen (LOX) tank — the first developmental welded hardware — is a part of the SC120 stage intended for payload enhancement by replacing the L110 stage in the existing Mk-III launch vehicle.

Last year, HAL had delivered the biggest-ever cryogenic liquid hydrogen tank (C32-LH2), which is four metres in diameter and eight metres in length, much ahead of contractual schedule.


Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #143 on: 04/11/2022 08:12 pm »
https://www.jagran.com/uttar-pradesh/varanasi-city-countrys-first-semi-cryogenic-engine-will-be-launched-after-three-months-said-isro-chairman-somnath-s-in-bhu-varanasi-jagran-special-22616120.html [Dated 10 Apr 2022]

Quote from: Google Translate
ISRO Chairman Dr. Somnath S said in Varanasi - 'India's first semi-cryogenic engine will be launched after three months'

Dr. Somnath told that ISRO is now working on completely indigenous technology. Three months later, the country's first semi-cryogenic engine will be tested. It will have a fuel capacity of 200 tonnes. After its success, the payload capacity of GSLV Mark-III will be increased from four tonnes to 5.5 tonnes. It will be based on kerosene and hydrogen and oxygen oxidizer in the semi cryogenic engine.

This article is riddled with inaccuracies (incorrect terms, concepts etc.) But, it says that ISRO chairman said semi-cryogenic engine will be tested in next 3 months.
« Last Edit: 04/11/2022 08:22 pm by vyoma »

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #144 on: 04/11/2022 08:32 pm »
Quote
LPFT Straightener helps in channelising the flow coming into the pump of the propulsion system.

Quote
Closed Impeller is part of the fuel delivery system
« Last Edit: 04/11/2022 08:32 pm by vyoma »

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #145 on: 07/11/2022 04:49 am »
Numerical investigations on direct contact condensation (DCC) of oxygen vapour in a staged combustion cycle based rocket engine [2018]

Quote
Numerical simulations are performed for 60%, 100% and 105% thrust conditions at the inlet duct to the main LOX pump in SCE-200, a staged combustion cycle based semi-cryogenic rocket engine, indigenously being developed in India.

Quote
To power future heavy lift launch vehicles and manned space missions, ISRO is developing a 2000 kN oxidizer-rich staged combustion cycle based semi-cryogenic rocket engine SCE-200. As in typical staged combustion cycle based rocket engines, the gas driving the booster turbine is recirculated and mixed with the pump outlet to increase the cycle efficiency [1]. This leads to condensation of hot turbine drive gas (predominantly oxygen and small amounts of CO2 & H2O) when it comes in direct contact with subcooled liquid oxygen at the inlet duct to the main LOX pump[2,3] as shown in Figure 1.

Very few researchers [2,4,5,6] have studied this typical direct contact condensation problem occuring at crygenic temperatures, whereas, lot of studies have been reported for the case of steam-water direct contact condensation.

Quote
A two fluid Eulerian multiphase model has been implemented in the commercial CFD package ANSYS CFX® to simulate the direct contact condensation process of oxygen vapor jets in flowing subcooled liquid. The plots of plume shapes and heat transfer coefficients for different thrust conditions are plotted and the results were analyzed. It has been observed that the rate of condensation increases with increase in thrust. Since, the vapor and liquid have higher mass fluxes at higher thrust conditions, the plume shapes does not decrease much though the heat transfer coefficients are high. In addition, it has been observed that the vapor plumes escape the pipe domain, which hints the need for modification of the inlet duct size in future.

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #146 on: 07/13/2022 09:06 am »
From "Space Research in India" 2020-2021 report here:

Quote
Thermo-hydraulic simulation of lOX Booster Turbo-pump for Semi-Cryogenic Rocket Engine:
SC-2000, India’s indigenous semi-cryogenic rocket engine, is being developed at ISRO’s LPSC. This project helped to develop the Low-Pressure Oxidiser Turbopump (LPOT), which is part of the SC-2000’s staged combustion cycle. In this project, the axial pump in LPOT is powered by a partial admission impulse turbine, which is run by the oxidizer-rich combustion products (hot gas) from the pre-burner. The hot gas at the turbine exit mixes with LOX from the pump exit, forming a multi-component multiphase flow with phase change, leading to solidification of CO2 and H2O.

Online Dmitry_V_home

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #147 on: 12/27/2022 04:41 pm »
ISRO is in talks with Roscosmos to supply the engines RD-191M: https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=586029&lang=RU

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #148 on: 12/27/2022 05:25 pm »
ISRO is in talks with Roscosmos to supply the engines RD-191M: https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=586029&lang=RU

... after the executive branch of the Indian government issued a geopolitically motivated directive ordering the talks by ISRO after taking into account the complete status of Yuzmash and Yuzhnoye SDO.
« Last Edit: 12/27/2022 05:25 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline sanjaykumar

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #149 on: 05/21/2023 04:31 am »
« Last Edit: 05/21/2023 04:39 am by sanjaykumar »

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #150 on: 06/08/2023 05:26 pm »
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/announcement-coming-soon-on-hava-rocket-testing-facility-isro-chief/articleshow/100854911.cms [Jun 08, 2023]

Quote
About the semi-cryogenic engine, Somanath said ISRO is developing one to replace the LVM-3 or Launch Vehicle Mark-III, previously known as the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle Mark III or GSLV Mk III.

Quote
According to him, it is a 200-tonne engine, which ISRO has been developing for the past 15 years. "This engine has now reached the first powerhead. The assembly has already been done. We have built a huge test facility. It was commissioned just last month and we have installed it and done the first ever propellant feed into it (sic). So it's successful now," the ISRO chief said.

Quote
He added that in another few days the first firing of the engine will take place, followed by six to seven tests, which will take place every two weeks under different conditions. If the tests are successful, the next phase will be to work on the hardware, Somanath said.

Quote
He also explained that ISRO had initially planned to conduct the tests in Russia and Ukraine because they had the facilities to conduct the tests, but now due to war those locations are not accessible. "Now the geopolitical situation does not allow us to go there," Somanath said, explaining that it made the space agency accelerate the construction of such a facility in India. "I am happy that the industry is supporting us so much to build a huge facility, which has just been commissioned," he added.

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #151 on: 07/03/2023 04:45 am »
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/more-lifting-power-for-indian-rockets-isro-test-fires-indias-most-powerful-rocket-engine-611153 [Jul 02, 2023]

Quote
In a major technological breakthrough that will eventually add more lifting-power to Indian rockets, the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) successfully test fired its most powerful-yet rocket engine. Chairman ISRO Dr. S. Somanath confirmed the development to WION. The test firing was conducted at the ISRO Propulsion Complex(IPRC) in Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu.

Quote
After a series of further tests are conducted and this engine is fully qualified, this 2000kN thrust engine and its stage(associated components, fuel tanks etc.) will be replacing the current L110(liquid-fuel core stage) of India's largest rocket - Launch Vehicle Mark 3 (LVM3).

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #152 on: 07/03/2023 01:29 pm »
twitter.com/isrospaceflight/status/1675530256063807489

Quote
ISRO has successfully performed the first proper test firing of the SCE-200 engine! #ISRO

https://twitter.com/isrospaceflight/status/1675838783428919297

Quote
Looks like the test wasn't as much of a success as previously anticipated.
At 2 seconds into the firing there was a spike in turbine pressure followed by loss of turbine speed causing the test to be aborted.
Regardless, this is a massive milestone in the SCE-200 program! #ISRO

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #153 on: 07/03/2023 03:09 pm »
https://www.isro.gov.in/First_Hot_Test_SemicryogenicEngine.html

Quote
First hot test of the Semi-cryogenic engine conducted at IPRC, Mahendragiri

July 3, 2023

On July 1, 2023, ISRO conducted the first hot test on an intermediate configuration of the Semi-cryogenic Engine, known as Power Head Test Article (PHTA) at ISRO Propulsion Complex (IPRC), Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu. The test was conducted towards developing a 2000 kN thrust semi-cryogenic engine to power the booster stages of future launch vehicles.

The objective of the test was to validate the integrated performance of the critical subsystems such as the gas generator, turbo pumps, pre-burner and control components by carrying out a hot-firing for a short-duration of 4.5 s. The ignition and generation of hot-gas within the pre-burner chamber that drives the main turbine to drive the fuel and oxidiser pumps, was focussed.

The test proceeded as predicted till 1.9 s validating the ignition and subsequent performance of PHTA. At 2.0 s, an unanticipated spike in the turbine pressure and subsequent loss of turbine-speed was observed. As a precautionary step, the test was terminated. Analysis under progress would offer further understanding before proceeding with further hot-tests for longer duration.

The semi-cryogenic engine utilizes a propellant combination of Liquid Oxygen (LOX) and Kerosene, and the power head test article forms the first hardware test of the engine development program. The test was carried out the dedicated test facility recently established at IPRC for testing semi-cryogenic engines and stages. ISRO had commenced the testing of the PHTA in May 2023 at this facility.

Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #154 on: 07/03/2023 03:10 pm »
Looks like test failed  :o :-X >:(

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #155 on: 07/04/2023 01:20 am »
Looks like test failed  :o :-X >:(
Any engine test that returns useful data and doesn't result in RUD isn't necessarily a failure.




Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #156 on: 07/04/2023 07:28 am »
Looks like test failed  :o :-X >:(

It was a test that found a bug, which is the point of testing!
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #157 on: 08/19/2023 04:47 am »
It is not easy to develop a two-stage combustion kerosene engine. Every setback is a path to final victory.

However, the story of LVM-3 thread"Semi-Cryo engine will be applied from LVM-3 M4"does not match the reality of engine development at all.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36389.160

Any updates on when Semi-Cryo will go live?


Offline vyoma

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Re: SCE-200 semi-cryo engine info
« Reply #158 on: 09/02/2023 10:28 pm »


However, the story of LVM-3 thread"Semi-Cryo engine will be applied from LVM-3 M4"does not match the reality of engine development at all.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36389.160

Any updates on when Semi-Cryo will go live?

May be it'll take another 5 to 10 years :( Just a guess.

 

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