Author Topic: What advanced concepts are you interested in  (Read 37210 times)

Offline Martin FL

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What advanced concepts are you interested in
« on: 03/02/2006 12:54 am »
What advanced concepts interest you, if any?

Offline Jamie Young

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #1 on: 03/02/2006 12:57 am »
Going faster than we are right now.

Moonbases.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #2 on: 03/02/2006 01:11 am »
Reusable space planes and high speed civil/commercial transports, primarily.  

I still miss watching the Concorde fly over the Jersey shore out by Sandy Hook on approach to JFK.  That was an impressive sight when it flew right over the beach!  I never thought that I'd see the end of supersonic air travel and nothing but Mach 0.85 airliners on the drawing board.   :(

But in terms of spaceflight, I want to see a new generation of RLV's more than anything.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #3 on: 03/02/2006 02:28 am »
For reusable space planes I would look to the commercial/tourism sector from now on.

Offline Hotol

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #4 on: 03/02/2006 09:22 am »
An ability to all but eliminate loss of crew on a LOV.

Offline nacnud

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #5 on: 03/02/2006 10:57 am »
I'd like to see NASA parterning with comercial companies to develop affordable recoverable 2nd stages, concentrating only on when such technology would be comercialy viable.

Offline AndyMc

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #6 on: 03/02/2006 11:13 am »
I'd like to see the CEV capsule and Service modules having a clamp type of docking mechanism and re-fuelling capability, so that when the service module has made the retrograde burn to send the CEV earth bound from LEO (not the lunar missions), the service module could re-orbit itself and be used as a space-tug or for fuel storage (perhaps both). If they were sold to a private operator, marshalled together and docked to a manifold, they would form the basis for a refuelling depot in LEO. Of course this depends upon the fuel being Methane(Ethanol)/LOX. This would of course add complexity and delay to the program if done now, but its worth bearing in mind for the future. The asset has been bought and paid for, then launched at great expense, so why not use it to its full potential.

Offline nacnud

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #7 on: 03/02/2006 11:40 am »
Interesting, sort of like Parom?

Well the CEV is supposed to have a six-month orbital lifetime. Perhaps looking at some of the ideas for future Apollos would give some insperation on how it could work. I like :)

Offline Terry Rocket

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #8 on: 03/02/2006 12:46 pm »
I like the idea of Branson getting a haircut. Sort of an advanced concept and sorta space related.

Offline nacnud

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #9 on: 03/02/2006 12:54 pm »
Come on! That realy is pushing the bounds of crediblity.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #10 on: 03/02/2006 12:57 pm »
Quote
Terry Rocket - 2/3/2006  1:46 PM

I like the idea of Branson getting a haircut. Sort of an advanced concept and sorta space related.

You're asking for a slap. You know we've got a zero tolerance policy going on here, and that includes talk of hairstyles, seen as I haven't got one ;)

Back on topic.
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Offline Hotol

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #11 on: 03/02/2006 02:15 pm »
How about a new form of propulsion that takes away the need to carry all that propellant uphill. I think that would like moving from coal engines to electric engines.

Offline rsp1202

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #12 on: 03/02/2006 02:43 pm »
An old hankering to see a catapult-assisted horizontal launch across and through miles of Rocky Mountains and up off Pike's Peak.

Offline Jim

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #13 on: 03/02/2006 02:57 pm »
Quote
AndyMc - 2/3/2006  6:13 AMI'd like to see the CEV capsule and Service modules having a clamp type of docking mechanism and re-fuelling capability, so that when the service module has made the retrograde burn to send the CEV earth bound from LEO (not the lunar missions), the service module could re-orbit itself and be used as a space-tug or for fuel storage (perhaps both). If they were sold to a private operator, marshalled together and docked to a manifold, they would form the basis for a refuelling depot in LEO. Of course this depends upon the fuel being Methane(Ethanol)/LOX. This would of course add complexity and delay to the program if done now, but its worth bearing in mind for the future. The asset has been bought and paid for, then launched at great expense, so why not use it to its full potential.

I think a dedicated vehicle would be more efficient.  All the controls and electronics are in the CM.  Reboost would take a lot of fuel.  It would be too small for fuel storage. 

The unmanned CEV already is your space tug.

Offline DavidB

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #14 on: 03/02/2006 07:44 pm »
Quote
Martin FL - 1/3/2006  5:54 PM

What advanced concepts interest you, if any?

Reusable space planes. I like the lifting body approach. Nature seems to be pushing shapes in that direction anyhow: fronts are bluntly rounded, wings are getting shorter and stubbier. Cars, trucks, and trains are taking this shape too. So why fight it.

Air launch platforms. I notice a few university aerospace clubs are pursuing work in this area. Not sure how far they'll get, but it is intriguing. I even recall some years ago, a group promoting the idea of modifying some SR-71 Blackbirds for small satellite launch. The Blackbird flies high in the atmosphere, fires off a rocket to launch the satellite. The idea sounded feasible, but it never went anywhere.

A permanent presence on Mars. Doesn't matter how simple it might be. Could just be a locator beacon, by which future missions pinpoint their location. As long as it is something long-term, I would be happy. That would be the "Plymouth Rock" for a whole new planet. Plus, it would be an exercise in just getting something to survive long-term on Mars.

The Space Elevator. I am not a fan of mega-projects, but this seems to be making progress. If they succeed, using private money, all the better.


Offline rsp1202

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #15 on: 03/02/2006 07:49 pm »
High-definition TV broadcasts from the Artemis lunar module during landing, and later from the rovers.

Offline RedSky

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #16 on: 03/02/2006 08:11 pm »
Quote
rsp1202 - 2/3/2006  2:49 PM
High-definition TV broadcasts from the Artemis lunar module during landing, and later from the rovers.

That'll be great.  Hopefully, there'll still be NASA-TV to watch it, cause you know after the first 5 minutes, all the other network & news channels will be bored and stop covering it.  Maybe also,  a 3D Imax movie filmed on location of construction of the future lunar base (similar to the 3D Imax Space Station movie).   It'll be time by then to update/remake the moon landing 3D Imax movie "Magnificent Desolation".



Offline Seattle Dave

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #17 on: 03/05/2006 03:39 am »
Quote
rsp1202 - 2/3/2006  2:49 PM

High-definition TV broadcasts from the Artemis lunar module during landing, and later from the rovers.

Similar. I would like the ability to access a rover on Mars or the moon where one can explore yourself via the internet. A very advanced version of the rovers.

Offline dailywarren

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #18 on: 03/06/2006 02:31 am »
Solar Sail, baby!  No fuel requirements and the potential of incredible speeds. Planetary.org is trying to put another one up on a russian rocket (the first one went ker-sputnik!) to test this theory, since NASA's budget restraints do not seem amenable to this fine idea.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #19 on: 03/06/2006 02:33 am »
Quote
dailywarren - 5/3/2006  9:31 PM

Solar Sail, baby!  No fuel requirements and the potential of incredible speeds. Planetary.org is trying to put another one up on a russian rocket (the first one went ker-sputnik!) to test this theory, since NASA's budget restraints do not seem amenable to this fine idea.


Welcome to the site.

We think another one went uphill on the recent Japanese launch. It was released prior to its primary payload, but I don't know if they reported any resulting tests carried out. Anyone?

PS Yes, the Russian one did indeed go splat.

Offline Davros

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RE: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #20 on: 03/06/2006 02:37 am »
That is correct. You see it here on one of the diagrams.

Part of that live launch thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1181&start=16

Offline mikorangester

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #21 on: 03/25/2011 04:51 am »

Offline savuporo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #22 on: 03/25/2011 04:54 am »
Which advanced concepts ?

Hmm. I'd say fly a rocketship of some kind to 100km of altitude with 3 people on board, and come back safely. Refuel, and repeat it in 2 weeks time. And do it again, and again, and again ..

Oh .. wait ..
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #23 on: 03/25/2011 12:49 pm »
Virus Proof software and hardware.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Propforce

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #24 on: 03/25/2011 01:31 pm »
Teleportation - that will solve all my transportation problems !  ;D

Offline tnphysics

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #25 on: 03/27/2011 08:57 pm »

Offline scienceguy

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #26 on: 03/27/2011 09:04 pm »
Carbon nanotubes, fusion, negative mass.
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Offline clongton

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #27 on: 03/27/2011 11:41 pm »
Pure space ship, never lands anywhere. Designed to depart from and return to EML-2. Crew of maybe 9-12. Mission duration 36 month capable but probably wouldn't push that envelope for a while. Mission specific craft/modules are attachable. Mission specific landers are attachable. Mission specific labs are attachable. Designed to be refueled, restocked and recrewed, then re-sent on the next mission.
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Offline Cinder

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #28 on: 03/28/2011 02:17 am »
In-space ISRU and manufacturing.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #29 on: 03/28/2011 10:46 am »
ISRU and manufacturing definitely. Also closed cycle life support. Anything focused on staying and self-sufficiency rather than flags and footprints.

Offline mnagy

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #30 on: 03/28/2011 05:40 pm »
Carbon nanotubes, fusion, negative mass.
Actually, I was always wondering.. If we were able to produce carbon nanotubes cheaply, what application could they find in space-related technologies? (Besides space elevator).

I'm personally mostly interested in ISRU, manufacturing and building in space, closed cycle life support and propulsion.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #31 on: 03/28/2011 05:45 pm »
Carbon nanotubes, fusion, negative mass.
Actually, I was always wondering.. If we were able to produce carbon nanotubes cheaply, what application could they find in space-related technologies? (Besides space elevator). ...
It would enable much lighter pressure-fed rockets (assuming the carbon nanotubes in bulk got anywhere near their individual strength). Also would enable much larger inflatable habitats for the same mass.

Also, there are many other tether ideas out there besides the space elevator that would benefit a lot from that level of specific strength.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2011 05:46 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline hyper_snyper

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #32 on: 03/28/2011 05:51 pm »
Closed loop life support, any kind of advanced propulsion; especially stuff that will make spacecraft more all-purpose and reusable, anything that will bring down the cost of flying in space. 

Basically what gets my propeller spinning is anything that contributes towards the goal of a real 'spaceship' as it is commonly defined and not just a expensive, throwaway bullet.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #33 on: 03/28/2011 06:05 pm »
This is my list.

Lower cost access to space this is by far the most important be it RLVs,space guns,or low cost big dumb rockets.

Reusable in space hardware.

Fuel depots.

ISRU.

In space nuclear power.

Better closed loop life support.

More advanced in space construction techniques.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2011 06:06 pm by Patchouli »

Offline mikorangester

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #34 on: 03/30/2011 03:31 am »
Propellantless propulsion eg www.emdrive.com and complex signals (http://mykaitan.blogspot.com/2011/02/on-complex-signals-and-potential-new.html)

Nah-seems to violate laws of physics.

You mean the principles of physics made during the time of the combustion engine

Offline scienceguy

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #35 on: 03/30/2011 04:25 am »
Carbon nanotubes, fusion, negative mass.
Actually, I was always wondering.. If we were able to produce carbon nanotubes cheaply, what application could they find in space-related technologies? (Besides space elevator).

I'm personally mostly interested in ISRU, manufacturing and building in space, closed cycle life support and propulsion.

Would carbon nanotubes help in the construction of a SSTO like the VentureStar? How much of a difference would it make structurally?
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Offline mlorrey

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #36 on: 03/31/2011 05:12 am »
Carbon nanotubes, fusion, negative mass.
Actually, I was always wondering.. If we were able to produce carbon nanotubes cheaply, what application could they find in space-related technologies? (Besides space elevator).

I'm personally mostly interested in ISRU, manufacturing and building in space, closed cycle life support and propulsion.

They are really good conductors, their conductivity is 1,000 times greater than copper, which, while not officially a superconductor (though multiwalled interconnected nanotubes are superconducting at T(c) = 12K), this does mean that they would be very useful to build mass drivers on the moon. Because they are not insulators at normal temperatures like other superconductors, they aren't as much of a problem with failure modes.
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Offline SimonDM

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #37 on: 03/31/2011 10:57 am »
1. Third fluid rocket engine to increase thrust to weight ratio of hydrogen engines, by Balepin. For a good second stage of a TSTO design.

2. Also some other precooled airbreathing design by Balepin, as well as the SABRE engine (Skylon), ATREX engine (Japan) and some other designs (like patent http://www.wikipatents.com/US-Patent-4224790/jet-engine) allowing the use of a single flowpath instead of weight adding two flowpaths (over/under or wraparound turboramjet) for a good first stage of a TSTO design.

I don't believe in space elevators, scramjets, SSTOs (except maybe the Balepin high T/W airbreathing design, SASSTO, Beta, Chrysler SERV designs), fusion (Polywell), railguns and many other exotics.

Offline tnphysics

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #38 on: 03/31/2011 07:29 pm »
A true space shuttle-Skylon with a forty-seat passenger compartment in the payload bay. Have a small turbojet for landing. Use Kevlar shielding to protect against SABRE engine explosions.

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #39 on: 03/31/2011 08:44 pm »
Solarkinetic pulse propulsion - a concept using streams of small solar sails in retrograde solar orbit to boost suborbital payloads into orbit or Earth escape.  Specific impulse of 10,000 combined with high thrust means it only takes about 1 ton of sailbots to boost 10 tons of payload to Earth escape.

Atmospheric scooping satellite (like PROFAC, but modernized with solar power in a sun-sync orbit like GOCE.  The sun-synchronous orbit means that the fixed PV arrays stay square to the sun while the radiator side stays in darkness.  An aeroscoop satellite could produce LOX and/or nitrous oxide.

Offline clongton

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #40 on: 03/31/2011 10:23 pm »
We need someplace to go once we get back into space - real space (not LEO). That will be the Moon and Mars. Surface facilities on either place will forever be at the mercy of the harsh environment and will be *extremely* limited in their growth potential. Fortunately there is a very good alternative on both locations; lava tubes. We know they are there. We know some of them are large enough to house a complete small town population with all that means. I would like to see some city planning, based on sealing and utilizing lava tubes as bases and settlements.
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Offline EE Scott

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #41 on: 03/31/2011 10:49 pm »
We need someplace to go once we get back into space - real space (not LEO). That will be the Moon and Mars. Surface facilities on either place will forever be at the mercy of the harsh environment and will be *extremely* limited in their growth potential. Fortunately there is a very good alternative on both locations; lava tubes. We know they are there. We know some of them are large enough to house a complete small town population with all that means. I would like to see some city planning, based on sealing and utilizing lava tubes as bases and settlements.

That might be a very important resource when we get off our duffs and get to Mars.  I wonder if they could design an instrument on the next Mars orbiter (MAVEN?) that could specifically search for those formations.  It would be great to have some kind of map that could tell us where the most promising lava tubes are.  That could be a game changer.  And of course there could be life within these tubes, as they could be damp/icy and be shielded from the worst radiation, so they would be a fantastic exploration target even before we are ready to use one for habitation purposes.
« Last Edit: 03/31/2011 10:49 pm by EE Scott »
Scott

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #42 on: 03/31/2011 11:21 pm »
We need someplace to go once we get back into space - real space (not LEO).
That reminds me of another advanced concept I'm interested in--using impact missiles to deflect small NEOs into Earth orbit.  These small NEOs aren't a threat to us here on Earth because they would burn up in the atmosphere.  However, they can be destinations in Earth orbit, as well as potentially useful resources.

The basic technology is Aegis BMD.  SM-3 missiles are suborbital kinetic kill vehicles which have already demonstrated the capability to hit a satellite.  We could start by demonstrating the capability to hit a small NEO shortly before it hits the atmosphere.  Then we could develop a more capable system which could intercept NEOs further away from Earth--far enough that the collision ejecta would not result in Kessler syndrome.

Besides providing destinations and resources in Earth orbit, this program would also be an incremental path toward NEO deflection systems suitable for true impactor threats.  Impactor missiles capable of deflecting a small NEO into Earth orbit could also be capable of deflecting a larger NEO the slight amount required to avoid an Earth impact.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #43 on: 03/31/2011 11:22 pm »
Radiation doses on Mars (at least at low latitudes) is lower than the natural radiation dosage some places on Earth (where people have and do live full, healthy lives). Just thought I'd point that out. Still would be cool to explore and live in a lava tube.

I think that on Mars geothermal power will be very important for the settlers there. But that's not likely to be an issue until at least a hundred years from now.

As far as advanced concepts... Ceres. I'm interested in that place... It's this little world that's so secret, might have liquid water (life?), a (tenuous) atmosphere, has a relatively low delta-v to the surface and back to orbit, is about to be explored by a superefficient spaceship running on an exotic fuel (Xenon)... Must be from listening to my father read Mushroom Planet books to me as a 4-year-old.
« Last Edit: 03/31/2011 11:28 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline sarjil

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #44 on: 04/01/2011 06:47 am »
i am most interested in:

reusable single stage to orbit
fusion


i am also intrested in:

closed life support
isru
rotational simulated gravity
in-space assembly and manufacturing

Offline MickQ

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #45 on: 04/01/2011 07:45 am »
We need someplace to go once we get back into space - real space (not LEO). That will be the Moon and Mars. Surface facilities on either place will forever be at the mercy of the harsh environment and will be *extremely* limited in their growth potential. Fortunately there is a very good alternative on both locations; lava tubes. We know they are there. We know some of them are large enough to house a complete small town population with all that means. I would like to see some city planning, based on sealing and utilizing lava tubes as bases and settlements.

That might be a very important resource when we get off our duffs and get to Mars.  I wonder if they could design an instrument on the next Mars orbiter (MAVEN?) that could specifically search for those formations.  It would be great to have some kind of map that could tell us where the most promising lava tubes are.  That could be a game changer.  And of course there could be life within these tubes, as they could be damp/icy and be shielded from the worst radiation, so they would be a fantastic exploration target even before we are ready to use one for habitation purposes.

And once they are located then we need a highly mobile explorer robot to search for entrances and look inside.

Mick.

Offline MickQ

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #46 on: 04/01/2011 07:47 am »
Pure space ship, never lands anywhere. Designed to depart from and return to EML-2. Crew of maybe 9-12. Mission duration 36 month capable but probably wouldn't push that envelope for a while. Mission specific craft/modules are attachable. Mission specific landers are attachable. Mission specific labs are attachable. Designed to be refueled, restocked and recrewed, then re-sent on the next mission.

What a novel idea, Chuck.  It will probably come to "Naut".

Mick.

Offline SimonDM

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #47 on: 04/05/2011 12:25 pm »
They are really good conductors, their conductivity is 1,000 times greater than copper, which, while not officially a superconductor (though multiwalled interconnected nanotubes are superconducting at T(c) = 12K), this does mean that they would be very useful to build mass drivers on the moon. Because they are not insulators at normal temperatures like other superconductors, they aren't as much of a problem with failure modes.
Their conductivity is worse than copper, so I don't think they're suitable for mass drivers. The maximum current density they can support is however indeed much, much higher.

Offline Cherokee43v6

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #48 on: 04/15/2011 02:26 pm »
If there's an existing thread on this subject, I'd love to find it and read it:

Use of Electromagnetic fields for space radiation shielding.

The Earth's electromagnetic field and the atmosphere block much of the radiation that is sent our way.  What would be the technical limitations to developing a 'field generator' that can be combined with ISS level physical shielding to protect deep space craft?  What might be some of the drawbacks to the same? (Weight?  Radiation funneling down the field lines? etc.)
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Offline dunwich

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #49 on: 04/15/2011 08:48 pm »
wow so many ideas and so many the same I'm afraid most of this will be repetition.


1. Nuclear power source for a space tug ship
2. Wireless transfer (a earthbound powersource transmitting power to orbit)
3. better space telescopes
4. In situ fuel production of atmosphere.
5. Space elevator technology (does not necessarily require nano tubes  simply look for a fast spinning NEO (2008HJ is a 5000 ton rock that rotates every 11.8 minutes). This elevator would be much shorter and could be made of existing materials.
6. water mining go in orbit or land on a ice rich asteroid and drop a heating element with a sucktion devise it melts in the soil it heats the water around it it expands and suckes it up

Offline pummuf

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #50 on: 04/15/2011 09:44 pm »
1. inexpensive space launch
2. inexpensive rocket engines
3. inexpensive infrastructure
4. saving money by launching with fewer people
5. automated manufacturing and launching to increase reliability and reduce costs.
6. reusable launcher components to reduce costs

Reducing costs is not always in the interest of some space launch companies - especially where competition is thin. What are they supposed to do - work their butts off to make themselves smaller and less profitable? For that reason I suspect these advanced concepts have not been worked as hard as other 'bleeding edge' technology. 
« Last Edit: 04/15/2011 10:07 pm by pummuf »

Offline dunwich

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #51 on: 04/15/2011 10:12 pm »
4. saving money by launching with fewer people

I've always wonderd why the never used teleoperating humanoid robotics to do most most of the human work. It would safe a lot of launches and a lot of food and water. But then you elimante the human aspect

Offline pummuf

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #52 on: 04/15/2011 10:49 pm »
4. saving money by launching with fewer people

I've always wonderd why the never used teleoperating humanoid robotics to do most most of the human work. It would safe a lot of launches and a lot of food and water. But then you elimante the human aspect

Launching with fewer people, not launching fewer people.

How many people does it take to launch an ICBM after the targeting has been laoded? A fraction of what commercial space launches need?

Offline mlorrey

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #53 on: 04/16/2011 05:37 pm »
They are really good conductors, their conductivity is 1,000 times greater than copper, which, while not officially a superconductor (though multiwalled interconnected nanotubes are superconducting at T(c) = 12K), this does mean that they would be very useful to build mass drivers on the moon. Because they are not insulators at normal temperatures like other superconductors, they aren't as much of a problem with failure modes.
Their conductivity is worse than copper, so I don't think they're suitable for mass drivers. The maximum current density they can support is however indeed much, much higher.

Cites? Current density (current per unit area) J in a material is proportional to the conductivity σ and electric field E. Ergo, current density correlates strongly with conductivity.
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Offline Dryson

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #54 on: 04/19/2011 04:50 pm »
The advanced concept's that I am interested in are:

Engine's that get a mission from point A to point B faster than current engines. The travel time between point's is crucial for human interaction. Human's like to get to their destination as a fast as possible to enjoy what ever is located at the destination. Hardly any human likes the travel time.

An advanced ship building yard that is similar to the I.S.S. in construction. Instead of having science and habitat facilities the advanced ship building yard would be one long Truss network with some habitat modules and storage compartment's.

The ASBY would then be used to construction various classes of the Pilyhas-1 InterStellar StarShip. The P-1 ISS which I plan on detailing here later today is basically an Orion Command Module fit with various modules from the I.S.S. to create a linear starship design that would be used to transport crew and passenger's from Bigelow to the Moon and eventually Mars.

Offline Suzy

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #55 on: 04/27/2011 03:41 am »
Nanotechnology, nuclear fusion, imaging a life-bearing exoplanet, an interstellar mission (unmanned or manned).

Offline QuantumG

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #56 on: 04/27/2011 09:28 am »
Use of Electromagnetic fields for space radiation shielding.

Check out http://www.minimagnetosphere.rl.ac.uk/

They're doing some good work (especially considering their location).
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline blasphemer

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #57 on: 04/27/2011 05:51 pm »
1. advanced space station concepts, rotational artificial gravity
2. very cheap LEO access (both economic SHLV rockets and alternative concepts like space elevator (Launch Loop), electromagnetic launchers..) - get cheaply to LEO and you are halfway to anywhere ;)
3. advanced interplanetary propulsion - VASIMR, Nuclear salt water rocket, Fission fragment rocket, fusion powered drive (Polywell, Helion Energy Inductive Plasma Accelerator).
« Last Edit: 04/27/2011 05:59 pm by blasphemer »

Offline Proponent

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #58 on: 06/02/2011 02:21 am »
Solarkinetic pulse propulsion - a concept using streams of small solar sails in retrograde solar orbit to boost suborbital payloads into orbit or Earth escape.  Specific impulse of 10,000 combined with high thrust means it only takes about 1 ton of sailbots to boost 10 tons of payload to Earth escape.

Interesting.  I was about to do some BotEs on this, but then it occurred to me that you've probably done the calculations already.  Any more to say about it?

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #59 on: 06/02/2011 04:37 pm »
Solarkinetic pulse propulsion - a concept using streams of small solar sails in retrograde solar orbit to boost suborbital payloads into orbit or Earth escape.  Specific impulse of 10,000 combined with high thrust means it only takes about 1 ton of sailbots to boost 10 tons of payload to Earth escape.

Interesting.  I was about to do some BotEs on this, but then it occurred to me that you've probably done the calculations already.  Any more to say about it?

- - - - -

Here is a summary of the main components:

1) Disposable solar sailbots.  Each solar sailbot is perhaps 1g in mass, with dimensions of around 30cm by 30cm--small enough to not require folding.  It consists of a square sheet of aluminized kapton along with a small control circuit.

2) Earth based navigation/control beams (they have sufficiently wide baseline to provide the required navigation accuracy)

3) A suborbital vehicle with a large bowl shaped "nozzle" at its base.  This "nozzle" looks sort of like a bell nozzle, but it's very wide.  At the apex of this nozzle is a small cold gas thruster exhaust port.  This cold gas puffer is used to emit a tiny amount of gas, which vaporizes the incoming sailbot.

- - - - -

Here is a summary of the system's operation:

1) Ten batches of sailbots are launched to Earth escape.  Each batch consists of a million 1g sailbots, for a total mass of 1 ton per batch.

2) The sailbots receive open loop navigation/control signals, and form themselves into long streams.  They spend about 3 years performing spiraling orbital cranking maneuvers, cranking inclination by up to 180 degrees into a 1AU retrograde solar orbit.

3) After orbital cranking is complete, each sailbot stream is a commodity ready to be used at a future date.  Each stream passes by Earth two times a year, with a relative velocity of up to 60km/s.

4) To use a sailbot stream, a suborbital vehicle launches upward to intercept the stream.  It uses the same navigation beacons as the sailbots, so the suborbital vehicle and the sailbots all independently home in on a particular target path.

5) The suborbital vehicle orients its base toward the incoming sailbots, while puffing gas from the cold gas puffer.

6) Each sailbot slams into a gas puff at 50+km/s, instantly vaporizing itself.  The resulting hot plasma hits the pusher bowl, which deflects it rearward.  This essentially doubles the impulse received by the spacecraft--it receives the initial forward momentum of the sailbot, plus it also receives momentum from the rearward deflected gas.  (The actual momentum multiplier can be greater than 2, if more gas is used.)

As the spacecraft accelerates up to orbital or escape velocity, the relative impact velocity reduces from 60km/s down to 50km/s.  But even this low end provides the equivalent impulse of 100km/s due to the momentum doubling effect.  This fantastic impulse is the reason why it only takes 1 ton of propellant to boost a 10 ton payload from suborbital to Earth escape.

7) For every ten launches, one or two are devoted to launching new batches of sailbots.  If we assume two per ten, we have a doubling in capacity every 3 years.

- - - - -

Note that the thruster works more or less like a miniature version of Orion, or "nuclear pulse propulsion".  In this case, each pulse is the vaporized remains of a 1g sailbot plus some cold gas rather than plasma from a nuclear bomb.  This produces a bunch of small impulses at an extremely high rate (assuming a 1000s burn, it's still 1000 pulses per second).  Because each pulse is so small, no shock absorbing pistons are needed.

I call it "SolarKinetic Pulse Propulsion" because it's ultimately solar powered (solar sails), it uses kinetic impacts (between the sails and the gas puffs), and it provides propulsion in pulses (like nuclear pulse propulsion).

This system easily scales upward.  Several streams can be commanded to combine into a more massive stream.  Ten streams could be combined into a single 10 ton stream of 10 million sailbots.  This heavy stream is suitable for boosting a 100 ton HLV payload from suborbital to Earth escape.

SolarKinetic Pulse Propulsion is also suitable for use around other planets.  The only infrastructure investment required are a few navigation beam satellites in space.  Sailbot streams in retrograde orbit at 1.5AU provide an impact velocity of 45+km/s for boosting suborbital payloads from Mars (equivalent to 9,000s Isp).  Sailbot streams in retrograde orbit at .4AU provide an impact velocity of 100km/s for boosting payloads from Mercury (equivalent to 20,000s Isp).

SolarKinetic Pulse Propulsion could provide cheap access to space, if the sailbots are cheap enough.  Not just LEO, but really the entire Solar System.

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #60 on: 06/02/2011 07:56 pm »
   There is a 'silver bullet' of sorts, proverbially speaking, in the near-future development' of advanced solar cells that DO NOT need silicon;
and DO NOT need solar cells/panels centimeters thick; and ARE NOT
limited to 20-30 percent photon-energy to electrical energy conversion.

For instance; Professor Shanhui Fan and his Stanford University team
are at work developing a promising ultra-thin solar-cell technology
that will involve the use of polymer thin film, instead of silicon;
and will increase the photon capture (and containment; my words)
by at least 10X.
  And the ultrathin solar-cells would be roughly about the wavelengths of
red or infrared light (about 0.75 micrometers?).

  To put it all in perspective: if you want a spacecraft or space station to have 100 meters square of solar panels anywhere from 1-4 centimeters thick (silicon density: 2700 kg/m^3) then the mass of the silicon alone would be anywhere from 2.7 -10.8 tonnes. And that doesn't
include the mass of the support frame, etc.

 All that for at most 28-42 KW near one A.U.

Compare that to the potential ultra-thin solar-cells that could be made
by ultrathin layers of polymer film solar-cells of say on less than one micrometer thickness.
 Less than a 1,500 kg of that material, and you are talking about enormous lightweight solar-panels of a surface area exceeding 10 million meters squared.

  And Professor Shanhui mentions a 10X increase in photon collection/retention with this material, compared to silicon.
 Silicon solar panels have a double handicap it seems: one, they have
what appears to be a photon capture retention property that is less than 10 percent of what actually strikes the panels; and, second,  the low percentage of photons captured by silicon-cells have a poor energy conversion rate from photon energy to electrical energy.
 
The ultra-thin solar panels would appear to have an efficiency that would leave
silicon solar cells in the dust.

http://www.news.stanford.edu
« Last Edit: 06/02/2011 08:04 pm by Moe Grills »

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #61 on: 06/02/2011 08:38 pm »
   I'm sorry, the Stanford news URL doesn't seem to work for me.
If someone could locate a reliable URL for Professor Shanhui Fan's
team, it would be appreciated.

 As for the space travel and space-exploitation potential for his team's work?
One thing sticks out: 10^6 + meters square of ultrathin, ultralight solar-cell photon capture area is?...it would be a proverbial orbiting Hoover dam.... without the all those turbines, water and megatons of concrete.

And, except for the necessary structural frame needed, orbital avionics, high-energy microwave transmitters, the booster needed to park it in GEO, etc, it would be of remarkably low mass.

Now if only the treehuggers wouldn't stand in the way.


Offline clongton

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #62 on: 06/02/2011 08:50 pm »
I'm interested in perfecting the process to increase the purity of fused silica.

The windows on the shuttle are made of a composite of aluminum silicate glass and fused silica glass, in 3 separate panes; an outside thermal pane, a center optical pane that is approximately 3 & 1/2 inches (89 mm) thick and an interior pressure pane that is part of the cockpit pressurization system. So there is plenty of precedent for its use in spacecraft.

Fused silica, if pure enough, would enable the practical development of the nuclear lightbulb NTR engine, using uranium hexafloride gas as the reactant and LH2 as the propellant. This engine would be safe enough for ground launch and would provide *enormous* thrust and an isp in the tens of thousands of seconds. That would be a true game changer in propulsion.

« Last Edit: 06/02/2011 08:56 pm by clongton »
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I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #63 on: 06/02/2011 10:19 pm »
Nanotechnology, nuclear fusion, imaging a life-bearing exoplanet, an interstellar mission (unmanned or manned).
Very good list. :)

You might also be interested to know that there are a couple groups looking for exoplanets around Alpha Centauri. While large gas giants (like in the movie from which your... ummm... avatar image comes from) are not considered likely, many think near-Earth-mass planets (perhaps in the habitable zone!) may indeed exist around some of the three stars of the nearest star system...
http://oklo.org/2009/06/07/alpha-centauri-market-outperform/
and especially:
http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_long_shot/
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Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #64 on: 06/05/2011 04:16 pm »
SolarKinetic Pulse Propulsion could provide cheap access to space, if the sailbots are cheap enough.  Not just LEO, but really the entire Solar System.

About the cost of the sailbots--the 30cm square of aluminized kapton costs almost nothing, so the main cost is the control chip.

If the control chips can be mass produced at a cost of under $1 per chip, this adds up to under $100 per kg to GTO, or under $70 per kg to LEO.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #65 on: 06/06/2011 03:58 am »
SolarKinetic Pulse Propulsion could provide cheap access to space, if the sailbots are cheap enough.  Not just LEO, but really the entire Solar System.

About the cost of the sailbots--the 30cm square of aluminized kapton costs almost nothing, so the main cost is the control chip.

If the control chips can be mass produced at a cost of under $1 per chip, this adds up to under $100 per kg to GTO, or under $70 per kg to LEO.

This reminds me a bit of my slightly kooky "beamed regolith propulsion" launcher :)

The idea was to deliver cargoes of super fine regolith dust from the moon to LEO. The dust is dispersed like a long column of smoke in the path of a suborbital craft. Because this dust is moving at orbital velocity, or even faster if it still retains its velocity from the trip from the moon, it can apply a force against the heatshield of the craft accelerating it to orbital velocity.

It is also a lot like the overhead magnetic monorail idea. I can't really claim that because it is just an orbital ring without the elevator/tower. It really only differs from the solar kinetic idea in that the chain of satellites apply force magnetically, like a magnetic train track, so they are reusable but I guess must be much more massive. Because the could be used to both accelerate and decelerate craft they don't need their own method of gaining momentum, they are really just a momentum battery for outgoing and incoming craft.

(note: I do believe rockets are the answer for now but these ideas are fun to play with. For right now I just want to see ongoing research into something like an evolvable reusable TSTO, and kept as just a series of prototypes rather than forced to be a workhorse like the shuttle. We have to keep building the next version. )
« Last Edit: 06/06/2011 04:05 am by KelvinZero »

Offline aero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #66 on: 06/06/2011 05:26 am »
I've always liked the Scifi idea of force fields. Have no idea how to start the construction of one but a force field having the strength of a steel cylinder with no or very little mass would sure improve the mass ratio of solid rockets. Of course Vasimr already uses a magnetic field for its rocket nozzle so that is a kind of force field.
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Offline Nascent Ascent

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #67 on: 06/06/2011 06:32 am »
I'm interested in perfecting the process to increase the purity of fused silica.

The windows on the shuttle are made of a composite of aluminum silicate glass and fused silica glass, in 3 separate panes; an outside thermal pane, a center optical pane that is approximately 3 & 1/2 inches (89 mm) thick and an interior pressure pane that is part of the cockpit pressurization system. So there is plenty of precedent for its use in spacecraft.

Fused silica, if pure enough, would enable the practical development of the nuclear lightbulb NTR engine, using uranium hexafloride gas as the reactant and LH2 as the propellant. This engine would be safe enough for ground launch and would provide *enormous* thrust and an isp in the tens of thousands of seconds. That would be a true game changer in propulsion.



Chuck,

Is this because any impurities in the quartz/silica would not be transparent to the UV radiation and hence heat up uncontrollably and damage the window?

-Jim

Offline clongton

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #68 on: 06/06/2011 10:08 am »
I'm interested in perfecting the process to increase the purity of fused silica.

The windows on the shuttle are made of a composite of aluminum silicate glass and fused silica glass, in 3 separate panes; an outside thermal pane, a center optical pane that is approximately 3 & 1/2 inches (89 mm) thick and an interior pressure pane that is part of the cockpit pressurization system. So there is plenty of precedent for its use in spacecraft.

Fused silica, if pure enough, would enable the practical development of the nuclear lightbulb NTR engine, using uranium hexafloride gas as the reactant and LH2 as the propellant. This engine would be safe enough for ground launch and would provide *enormous* thrust and an isp in the tens of thousands of seconds. That would be a true game changer in propulsion.



Chuck,

Is this because any impurities in the quartz/silica would not be transparent to the UV radiation and hence heat up uncontrollably and damage the window?

-Jim

The UV that the shuttle windows experience is not strong enough to damage them, not even close. But that would not be the case for the nuclear lightbulb NTR engine. In that case, the integrity of the transparent containment could be compromised by the impurities.
« Last Edit: 06/06/2011 10:09 am by clongton »
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Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #69 on: 06/06/2011 10:44 am »
SolarKinetic Pulse Propulsion could provide cheap access to space, if the sailbots are cheap enough.  Not just LEO, but really the entire Solar System.

This reminds me a bit of my slightly kooky "beamed regolith propulsion" launcher :)

The idea was to deliver cargoes of super fine regolith dust from the moon to LEO. The dust is dispersed like a long column of smoke in the path of a suborbital craft. Because this dust is moving at orbital velocity, or even faster if it still retains its velocity from the trip from the moon, it can apply a force against the heatshield of the craft accelerating it to orbital velocity.

I used to ponder variations on this theme of using orbital impactors, but there are numerous problems stemming from the relatively low impact velocity.  By the time the target vehicle is reaching orbital speed, the impact velocities will be below 3km/s.  The specific impulse isn't all that much better than a chemical rocket, so the entire scheme only makes sense if the mass of the impactors comes from in situ resource utilization--meaning a huge investment to get the scheme started up.

The deal killing problem, though, is the space junk problem.  The impact velocities are insufficient to guarantee vaporization upon impact with a gas puff, and the ejecta from a solid-solid impact will leave a stupendous amount of orbital space junk.

In order to eliminate the space junk problem, you need much higher impact velocities.  One commonly proposed solution is to use a mass driver of some sort, but there are two problems with this.  First, we have never produced a mass driver with anywhere near the sorts of muzzle velocities required--our best EM accelerators have only reached on the order of a km/s.  Second, this requires a stupendously powerful mass driver in orbit or on the Moon.  This is an incredible initial investment required.

In contrast, solarkinetic requires no mass driver to reach impact speeds of 60km/s.  This means no incredible initial investment, other than waiting about 3 years for the first sailbots to complete their orbital cranking treks.  This 3 year wait isn't really so much time, compared to development time for any radically new launcher concept.

The impact velocities of 50+km/s guarantee complete vaporization, and the exhaust will have 40+km/s velocity relative to Earth.  Even if there are some bits of solid ejecta swept up in the exhaust stream, it will have Earth escape velocity.  SolarKinetic produces no space junk problem.

Quote
It is also a lot like the overhead magnetic monorail idea. I can't really claim that because it is just an orbital ring without the elevator/tower. It really only differs from the solar kinetic idea in that the chain of satellites apply force magnetically, like a magnetic train track, so they are reusable but I guess must be much more massive.

Yes, it needs to be MUCH more massive.  It requires a huge initial investment of many orders of magnitude launch mass compared to the payload.  Like any other scheme involving a huge initial investment, it only makes sense if there are going to be an extremely high number of launches.

SolarKinetic is unique in that its initial investment is an order of magnitude LESS mass than its payload capacity.  The incredibly high impact velocities mean that 1 ton of sailbots can lift 10 tons of payload to GTO, or 14 tons of payload to LEO.

Offline Cinder

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #70 on: 06/06/2011 11:57 am »
I've always liked the Scifi idea of force fields. Have no idea how to start the construction of one but a force field having the strength of a steel cylinder with no or very little mass would sure improve the mass ratio of solid rockets. Of course Vasimr already uses a magnetic field for its rocket nozzle so that is a kind of force field.
Not sure if its strength is at that level, but there is such a tech restricted to inch-scales due to power requirements.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #71 on: 06/09/2011 11:19 am »

Yes, it needs to be MUCH more massive.  It requires a huge initial investment of many orders of magnitude launch mass compared to the payload.  Like any other scheme involving a huge initial investment, it only makes sense if there are going to be an extremely high number of launches.

SolarKinetic is unique in that its initial investment is an order of magnitude LESS mass than its payload capacity.  The incredibly high impact velocities mean that 1 ton of sailbots can lift 10 tons of payload to GTO, or 14 tons of payload to LEO.

Good points.. I know what Jim would say about the suborbital rendezvous though. Version 1.0 could just be about raising orbits. I like that the weight to begin testing it is minuscule since you would begin by navigating a single sail into a retrograde orbit.

Reminds me a bit of my 'solar butterflies' idea... ;D

Im still sort of in love with that orbital ring, but for a distant future where there is so much urban sprawl in LEO that the ring also serves as their subway. Its certainly not happening anytime soon.

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #72 on: 06/09/2011 02:31 pm »
SolarKinetic is unique in that its initial investment is an order of magnitude LESS mass than its payload capacity.  The incredibly high impact velocities mean that 1 ton of sailbots can lift 10 tons of payload to GTO, or 14 tons of payload to LEO.

Good points.. I know what Jim would say about the suborbital rendezvous though. Version 1.0 could just be about raising orbits.

Things are greatly simplified by the fact that a certain amount of slop is acceptable and there is no need to match velocities.  This reduces the problem to that of a suborbital missile colliding with a spacecraft--an already demonstrated capability.  In this case, the the spacecraft cooperatively navigate themselves onto a particular path defined by the ground based navigation beams.  This provides precision down to about 20cm.

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I like that the weight to begin testing it is minuscule since you would begin by navigating a single sail into a retrograde orbit.

Yes, although the mass you need to launch to test sailbot prototypes is more than that.  To minimize mass and cost, the sailbots can only receive signals.  They can't transmit signals, so you need some other method of receiving feedback on a prototype's location and status.  The 30cm x 30cm dimensions are big enough for existing space junk sensor systems to track location in LEO, but you really want high resolution feedback on attitude to determine how well the control systems are working.

After testing in Earth orbit to prove the control systems, you could launch sailbots to test BEO capabilities.  The small size of the sailbots mean that there's not really a practical way to track these things in BEO.  So you'll want to play things conservatively with test sailbots scheduled to return after progressively longer and longer journeys.

There are also other aspects of testing which I've thought about.  For example, how do you test the thruster?  My original idea was to use simple direct impacts for momentum--each impact causing a crater so most of the momentum was actually from the crater ejecta.  But there are various problems with this, including testing.  A 60km/s impact velocity is an order of magnitude greater than the highest speeds available for solid-solid hypervelocity impact testing.

However, 60km/s is within the capabilities of solid-gas impact testing.  The Giant Planet Facility was used to test the Galileo atmospheric entry probe's heat shield.  To test this thruster, two solid-gas impacts need to be considered.  The first is the impact between the gas puff and the sailbot.  It must consistently vaporize the sailbot within a range of impact attitudes and off-axis errors.  The second is the impact between the resulting plasma and the thrust bell.  The thrust bell is essentially a heat shield, just with a concave shape to redirect the for increased impulse.

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Reminds me a bit of my 'solar butterflies' idea... ;D

What is your solar butterflies idea?

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Im still sort of in love with that orbital ring, but for a distant future where there is so much urban sprawl in LEO that the ring also serves as their subway. Its certainly not happening anytime soon.

There are numerous ideas which could make sense after a sufficient space infrastructure is in place.  An orbital ring has various problems, but they could be overcome.  For example, there is a requirement to match transverse velocities.  That's significantly more challenging than simply intercepting the orbital ring path.  The tolerances are also challenging.  The ring needs to be a perfectly smooth circle or the vehicle and ring destroy each other.

A far less challenging system could be a satellite with a scoop to simply catch a suborbital payload.  This only works if you don't mind the payload delivered in paste form, of course.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #73 on: 06/10/2011 10:28 am »
Solar butterflies was just various speculations about the sorts of megascale engineering you could do with a flock of solar sails that do nothing but control their own angle, especially if self reproducing. I imagined a single element looking sort of like a butterfly with a tiny body.

Paste form is quite a disadvantage :)

The orbital ring can accelerate you as gently as you like, take a suborbital craft up to at least twice orbital velocity, and also reverse this, taking an incoming craft back to earth velocity.

Why is matching transverse velocity hard? That means sideways right? :)
I see it as essentially landing on a runway except there is no weather up there. There would probably be a tram with a cable that latches on when you get to within a few meters or hundred meters so the suborbital craft does not need to carry heavy magnets. Docking with that I guess would be a bit like inflight refueling.

The ring would not need to be a solid piece. An accident would only wipe out the tram,  a few segments and possibly not even the craft given it is on a cable.

What other ideas do you see as becoming practical with a large infrastructure? Beamed power would be a complementary addition. I never liked space elevators, rotovators only a little better.

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #74 on: 06/10/2011 03:37 pm »
Solar butterflies was just various speculations about the sorts of megascale engineering you could do with a flock of solar sails that do nothing but control their own angle, especially if self reproducing. I imagined a single element looking sort of like a butterfly with a tiny body.

These sailbots look like a square sheet of aluminized kapton, with a small control circuit.  Ideally, the circuit itself is directly printed on the kapton, perhaps using LCD screen manufacturing technology.  The sail is kept flat and stable by rotating it.  The control circuit only needs to modulate the reflectivity of an off-center zone in order to control attitude.

The number of sailbots involved are not suitable for megascale engineering.  Ten million of these sailbots, suitable for boosting 140 tons of payload to LEO, still only have a total sail area of one square kilometer.

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Paste form is quite a disadvantage :)

It's good enough for bulk cargo like fuel, water, aeroponic nutrients, 3d printer feedstock, and so on.  Not bad for something that's doable in the near term with a modest investment.

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The orbital ring can accelerate you as gently as you like, take a suborbital craft up to at least twice orbital velocity, and also reverse this, taking an incoming craft back to earth velocity.

Accelerating beyond orbital velocity would require some sort of high power propulsion system.  Decelerating down to Earth is an already solved problem--the atmosphere helps!

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Why is matching transverse velocity hard? That means sideways right? :)
I see it as essentially landing on a runway except there is no weather up there.

It's certainly a solvable problem, but one which requires careful tolerances.  It's not as easy as landing on a runway because runways are wide.  And they don't explode if you slam down on them too hard.

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There would probably be a tram with a cable that latches on when you get to within a few meters or hundred meters so the suborbital craft does not need to carry heavy magnets. Docking with that I guess would be a bit like inflight refueling.

This requires a high speed tram with a propulsion system suitable for accelerating it to 8km/s relative to the track.  This might be the most practical method of solving the various issues, but of course it requires solving its own issues.

The alternative is for the spacecraft to directly interface with the orbital ring, which only requires some form of braking.

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The ring would not need to be a solid piece. An accident would only wipe out the tram,  a few segments and possibly not even the craft given it is on a cable.

Unfortunately, an accident would cause an explosion of debris, and half of the nearby ring is screaming toward the debris at 8km/s.  The initial cloud of debris is mostly only a threat for a some seconds, as gravity pulls it down to Earth.  But in the meantime, many kilometers of orbital ring will be shredded by it--and THIS will result in a stupendous amount of space junk in orbit.  This secondary debris will repeatedly return to the path of the orbital ring.  Each bit of debris will pass near the ring twice every 90 minutes until it hits.

The bottom line is that the orbital ring is doomed, and you've got a nasty clean up problem before you can consider creating a new orbital ring.

The only reasonable solution that comes to my mind is to greatly overengineer the ring so it can shrug off and absorb debris impacts.

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What other ideas do you see as becoming practical with a large infrastructure? Beamed power would be a complementary addition. I never liked space elevators, rotovators only a little better.

I assume you mean launch systems.  I prefer systems that don't require a large infrastructure (like solarkinetic pulse propulsion), or ones where the large infrastructure is on the ground (like laser thermal or some sort of gun launch).

One variant of gun launch which I like is a kinetic storage ring machinegun.  The first part of the system is a solid bullet version of a particle accelerator.  Imagine a 20km diameter storage ring consisting of a 4cm diameter pipe.  Within this storage ring are a bunch of long thin darts.  Several accelerator coils are used to incrementally accelerate the darts--they coast between the coils.

After some hours or days, the ring of darts have been accelerated up to 10+km/s.  For launch, they are diverted to a gun barrel that curves upward.  This barrel is aimed at the launch vehicle, which accepts momentum from the impacts using a thick pusher shield.  This system could be useful for large volume heavy lift.

Unlike beam powered rockets, this storage ring system could build up the required kinetic energy over hours or days.  Unlike a mass driver system, only a few accelerator coils are required and they have extremely high usage cycles (almost continuous).

Offline aero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #75 on: 06/10/2011 06:26 pm »
I've always liked the Scifi idea of force fields. Have no idea how to start the construction of one but a force field having the strength of a steel cylinder with no or very little mass would sure improve the mass ratio of solid rockets. Of course Vasimr already uses a magnetic field for its rocket nozzle so that is a kind of force field.
Not sure if its strength is at that level, but there is such a tech restricted to inch-scales due to power requirements.
Do you happen to know if that tech will shield against radiation, and if so, what levels of radiation?
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #76 on: 06/11/2011 02:32 am »
Unfortunately, an accident would cause an explosion of debris, and half of the nearby ring is screaming toward the debris at 8km/s.  The initial cloud of debris is mostly only a threat for a some seconds, as gravity pulls it down to Earth.  But in the meantime, many kilometers of orbital ring will be shredded by it--and THIS will result in a stupendous amount of space junk in orbit.  This secondary debris will repeatedly return to the path of the orbital ring.  Each bit of debris will pass near the ring twice every 90 minutes until it hits.

I don't see it happening that way. As you say any elements moving at 8km/s relative to the ring would remove themselves immediately. The arc of any fragment travelling from a point on the ring has to travel halfway around the world before it possibly intersects the ring again. Therefore any fragment with less than orbital velocity should be removed by that point. Since the ring is in as low an orbit as possible (and having no forward surface this can be lower than for any usual satellite), any trajectory which is not extremely exact will intersect deep into earths atmosphere and be removed. Most of the extremely exact trajectories that do survive would be essentially inline with the ring and have low  relative velocities.

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #77 on: 06/11/2011 02:37 am »
FWIW, I've just conceived of a superior alternative to solarkinetic pulse propulsion, which I call "picokinetic pulse propulsion".  Picokinetic doesn't require development of small 1g solar sails.  Instead, it uses 200g picosats with plain old chemical propulsion.

I won't describe the method of getting the picosats up to very high impact velocities.  I'll just reveal that this method doesn't require any sort of powerful infrastructure (like a honking huge mass driver or ISRU), and it doesn't require any fancy propulsion systems (like solar sails or VASIMR).

Picokinetic pulse propulsion only uses 5000 picosats to boost a 20 ton client vehicle, rather than over a million sailbots for solarkinetic.  This has a huge impact on the potential for cheap access to space.  If the 200g picosats can be mass produced at under $4 each, costs to LEO can be under $1000 per ton.

Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #78 on: 06/11/2011 04:24 am »
Unfortunately, an accident would cause an explosion of debris, and half of the nearby ring is screaming toward the debris at 8km/s.  The initial cloud of debris is mostly only a threat for a some seconds, as gravity pulls it down to Earth.  But in the meantime, many kilometers of orbital ring will be shredded by it--and THIS will result in a stupendous amount of space junk in orbit.  This secondary debris will repeatedly return to the path of the orbital ring.  Each bit of debris will pass near the ring twice every 90 minutes until it hits.

I don't see it happening that way. As you say any elements moving at 8km/s relative to the ring would remove themselves immediately.

The initial explosion debris would shred many kilometers of the orbital ring before it's pulled down to Earth.

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The arc of any fragment travelling from a point on the ring has to travel halfway around the world before it possibly intersects the ring again.

No, it doesn't.  It can return to the ring after any distance.  I don't know where you get this idea that it needs to travel half an orbit first.

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Therefore any fragment with less than orbital velocity should be removed by that point. Since the ring is in as low an orbit as possible (and having no forward surface this can be lower than for any usual satellite), any trajectory which is not extremely exact will intersect deep into earths atmosphere and be removed.

No, the ring will experience much higher drag than a typical satellite.  The problem is that the orbital ring is narrow and has a lot of surface area for a given volume.  Typical satellites are far more compact.  At orbital speeds, even the "sideways" surfaces experience a lot of drag.  Air molecules don't just stand still.  They have transverse thermal motion on the order of the speed of sound.  As such, surfaces which are parallel to orbital motion get "sideswiped" by air molecules.

Given the extremely tight tolerances required to keep the ring perfectly smooth and "straight", it's really not a good idea to have the slightest bit of atmosphere around to interact with it.

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Most of the extremely exact trajectories that do survive would be essentially inline with the ring and have low  relative velocities.

Untrue.  The surviving trajectories are ones along an orange slice.  Any debris headed in either the "forward" direction or to the sides or anywhere in between will survive, and they can have large relative velocities when they return to the ring path (up to 13km/s relative velocity).

The surviving orbits are all of the ones with perigee near the impact point and velocities between 7.5km/s and 10.5km/s.  This includes debris orbits which are greatly inclined compared to the ring.

Offline Andrew_W

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #79 on: 06/12/2011 09:58 pm »
1. Aerial propellant Transfer for spaceplanes. A modified A380 could refuel a reusable Lh2/LOX spaceplane large enough to put a 20 tonnes payload into LEO. With operations of airline efficiency, cost could be as low as $100/kg. APT hugely increases the number of launch windows compared to direct ascent from the ground.

2. Hypersonic rotovators. In sun synchonous orbits, combine this with APT spaceplanes and costs to orbit could be as low as $25/kg as payload /spaceplane quadruples.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/01/industrial-scale-production-of.html

3. Space tourism, a hotel in the polar dusk to dawn sun synchronous LEO orbit would be in  continuous sunshine.

4. Solar power satellites, these also go into sun synchronous orbit with microwave reflectors in equatorial orbit to send power to rectenna near population centers on the ground.
http://www.earthspaceagency.org/space-articles/space-opinions/the-space-grid-sun-synchronous-orbiting-sbsp-satellites-with-equatorial-orbiting-reflector-satellites-for-earth-and-space-energy.html

5. Stanford torus, again these go into sun synchronous orbit, they are a base for the crews building the Solar power satellites, a home for rich people wanting to move out of Beverly Hills and a destination for tourists.

6. Solar thermal rockets, I'm puzzled that these don't get more study for interplanetary flight, they only need light weight mirrors to collect sunlight and don't waste that sunlight energy the way solar sails do by just bouncing it away, at 1AU from it the sun provides 1 GW of power per square km, H2 propellant will give an Isp of about 1000s, H2O ~400s. Why would anyone even consider the weight cost and complexity of nuclear electric or solar electric?

7. Asteroid mining.

8. The lunar surface based rotating tether covered at the end of this paper:
http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/1032Pearson.pdf
« Last Edit: 06/14/2011 02:27 am by Andrew_W »
I confess that in 1901 I said to my brother Orville that man would not fly for fifty years.
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Offline IsaacKuo

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #80 on: 06/13/2011 02:25 am »
I have refined the picokinetic pulse propulsion concept, and performance is actually orders of magnitude better than my original concept.  Not only does it offer boosting suborbital payloads directly to MTO at under $1/kg, it can be used for FAST interplanetary missions.

For example, picokinetic could propel a manned mission to Titan and back in under 1 year.  It could propel a manned mission to Pluto and back in 3 years.  That is FAST!!!

FWIW, I've just conceived of a superior alternative to solarkinetic pulse propulsion, which I call "picokinetic pulse propulsion".  Picokinetic doesn't require development of small 1g solar sails.  Instead, it uses 200g picosats with plain old chemical propulsion.

I won't describe the method of getting the picosats up to very high impact velocities.  I'll just reveal that this method doesn't require any sort of powerful infrastructure (like a honking huge mass driver or ISRU), and it doesn't require any fancy propulsion systems (like solar sails or VASIMR).

Picokinetic pulse propulsion only uses 5000 picosats to boost a 20 ton client vehicle, rather than over a million sailbots for solarkinetic.  This has a huge impact on the potential for cheap access to space.  If the 200g picosats can be mass produced at under $4 each, costs to LEO can be under $1000 per ton.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: What advanced concepts are you interested in
« Reply #81 on: 06/15/2011 10:51 am »

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The arc of any fragment travelling from a point on the ring has to travel halfway around the world before it possibly intersects the ring again.

No, it doesn't.  It can return to the ring after any distance.  I don't know where you get this idea that it needs to travel half an orbit first.

...
sorry.. you are just way too strident for me. Enjoy your time on this site :)

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