so if it adds up to zero its "natural energy" ? and how can it evaporate away if like you said one escapes and one falls in, it cannot evaporate.
at any rate there are at least 5 ways to approach the negative mass energy thing that i have seen put forward in publication. 1. Casimir forces set up a condition of relative negative energy density between two closely spaced barriers. there is debate on whether a relative negative density behaves in all particulars as if it were negative energy for purposes of negative deformations of space. 2. squeezed light waveforms have a tiny component that is negative energy. working out how to grab that portion and amplify it and move it around seems to a laymen to be analogous to regular amplifier techniques. but i am not familiar with that enough to say that that is the case. physicists imply that this would be difficult but they are not engineers. 3. the region near black hole event horizons is chock full of negative energy. if so this should actually be relatively easy to access. remember the hooplah over the collider potentially making a mini black hole? such an event would not be dangerous (cosmic rays collide by the trillions at higher energy so any blackholes created vanish before they can feed and stabilize) and in fact might allow access to negative energy albeit with significant engineering issues. 4. like item three only involving quantum wormholes and not needing a collider. 5. Cosmic back reaction in macroscopic wormholes: throwing stuff into a wormhole magically generates it's opposite on the other end. positive energy input is negative energy output. as it happens this is more useful than harmful for wormhole tech. it can be used to hold a wormhole open, produce exotic energy and control the distal end of a wormhole. This greatly amuses me and annoys skeptics of wormhole travel. In addition to the above which i have seen in theoretical discussion and articles about where to get the exotic matter/energy these are possibilities i have thought of myself using my Ko0K science powers as authorization: 6. recently there were articles about thermodynamically acceptable temperatures below zero degrees kelvin. you'd think that was absurd. it sound wackier than any kook science claim i have ever heard. but it's real. it seems to me that this would be negative energy. 7. dark matter. well it's possible however unlikely that some dark matter is exotic matter of the requisite properties. 8. Mirror sector matter. what are it's properties? are mirror photons negative in the sense we need for warps? if mirror matter exist as has been seriously proposed by many credentialed scientists then why can't other sectors of the universe exist which have the right properties? the cool thing with this is regular matter is easily converted to mirror matter under certain circumstances. it's like throwing a switch. 9. Time reversed particles or tachyonic particles would behave as negative energy (I think and hope.) AND FINALLY: I believe Dr White has said in some of his presentations that he thinks he can eliminate the exotic matter requirements entirely by jiggering AC field waveforms in the ring the right way.
this is a tie in because : 1. it shows that quantum flux can be amplified. 2. it shows the area of action can be enlarged. 3. technique could be applied to tech that develops casimir scale force technology 4. it is possible that similar techniques could do for casimir derived negative energy and thus; 5. it could be of use for warp drive and wormhole science and later technology. My opinion on it is stuff like this that will build the foundation for ZPE, warp and wormhole breakthroughs in the future.
I do not know the bone fides of the website i sourced because i do not have time to go through the whole thing.i do know that there is a NASA paper on this discovery and other astronomers have detected this anomalous spectrum line in andromeda. I will link to the article and also to the NASA paper preprint abstract.background information. the specral line emissions of every type of matter in the periodic table are known and commonly used to tell the make up of stuff on earth and all the way to the end of the universe. for a line to appear in a gap between these known signatures means either there was an observational error or glitch in the machines or something not of the known elements has been observed.that means taken at face value this is some sort of exotic matter. possibly dark matter or even something made up of particles with nucleons made out of different quarks than normal protons and neutrons or made of monopoles or negative matter or something exciting like that.article at: http://thewatchers.adorraeli.com/201...known-physics/nasa paper preprint at: http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.2301
i just had a quick thought through my mind, are black holes negative energy or positive? if they are negative then thats must be where all sucked in material must go to be produced back to natural energy.
It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.
Quote from: Nomadd on 07/27/2014 06:25 pm It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.
Quote from: Stormbringer on 07/27/2014 10:22 pmQuote from: Nomadd on 07/27/2014 06:25 pm It's assumed that, to preserve conservation of mass/energy, the particle that falls into the black hole is negative energy, so reduces the mass of the hole. I was never that clear why the negative half of the virtual pair was more likely to fall in while the positive half went the other way. Hawking radiation would actually increase as the hole got smaller because the gravitational gradient would get steeper.it would probably be random unless there is something else i am not considering. the inertia of a negative mass reacts the same way that the inertia of a regular mass behaves according to Dr Woodward from the video i posted. He says a lot of people who should know better get that wrong.I'm not sure that can be correct. If it were random then the hole would not evaporate (lose mass) over time as Hawking suggests.I think the idea is that the pair of particles are virtual. They are in a superposition where they have both +ve and -ve mass. When one ventures over the event horizon, they are both promoted to real particles. Since observable particles can only have +ve mass the superposition collapses accordingly, with the one with -ve mass always being the one inside the event horizon.
Even black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.
That'd be neat. Clearly the way to test it is with domesticated black holes.
1. Casimir forces set up a condition of relative negative energy density between two closely spaced barriers. there is debate on whether a relative negative density behaves in all particulars as if it were negative energy for purposes of negative deformations of space.
2. squeezed light waveforms have a tiny component that is negative energy. working out how to grab that portion and amplify it and move it around seems to a laymen to be analogous to regular amplifier techniques. but i am not familiar with that enough to say that that is the case. physicists imply that this would be difficult but they are not engineers.
3. the region near black hole event horizons is chock full of negative energy. if so this should actually be relatively easy to access. remember the hooplah over the collider potentially making a mini black hole? such an event would not be dangerous (cosmic rays collide by the trillions at higher energy so any blackholes created vanish before they can feed and stabilize) and in fact might allow access to negative energy albeit with significant engineering issues.
4. like item three only involving quantum wormholes and not needing a collider. 5. Cosmic back reaction in macroscopic wormholes: throwing stuff into a wormhole magically generates it's opposite on the other end. positive energy input is negative energy output. as it happens this is more useful than harmful for wormhole tech. it can be used to hold a wormhole open, produce exotic energy and control the distal end of a wormhole. This greatly amuses me and annoys skeptics of wormhole travel.
6. recently there were articles about thermodynamically acceptable temperatures below zero degrees kelvin. you'd think that was absurd. it sound wackier than any kook science claim i have ever heard. but it's real. it seems to me that this would be negative energy.
7. dark matter. well it's possible however unlikely that some dark matter is exotic matter of the requisite properties.
8. Mirror sector matter. what are it's properties?
9. Time reversed particles or tachyonic particles would behave as negative energy (I think and hope.
Threads like this make me die a little inside.
What does this even mean?In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.
[citation needed]
There's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).
[citation needed]I did a search for this, and all I found was an old article from Analog magazine.
This is absolutely wrong. Negative temperatures are caused by population inversions, and they are very (positively) energetic indeed.
No it isn't. dark matter definitionally has positive mass. that's kind of the point.
The same as regular matter, except interacting via bosons of different parity. just because it has "mirror" in the name, doesn't mean you get to make up whatever you feel like.
Quote from: momerathe on 07/28/2014 04:20 pmIn any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else. in power circuits generators etc; you can pick up individual components of an electrical wave form or multiple waveforms and lead the bits away to do separate but real bits of work. for example in polyphase circuits you can tap just one phase. i believe also that you could time the pick up to occur only during the negative portion of the wave form if you had suitable circuitry to work with negative energy or mass. it seems to me the problem would be akin to electrical engineering.
In any event, these "components" are not separable, any more than you can pick up the crest of a water wave and take it somewhere else.
citation of negative particles or energy outside the event horizon of a black hole (parts are implicit or self evident; but ) from michio Kaku's article on how to escape the universe. the article was picked up and reprinted in several magazines but here is where i found it:http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/escapefromtheuniverseEXCERPT: QuoteEven black holes have negative energy surrounding them, near their event horizons. In principle, this may yield vast quantities of negative energy. However, the technical problems of extracting negative energy so close to a black hole are extremely tricky.
QuoteThere's another point I'd like to make here: between this and your previous bullet, you seem to be thinking of energy as "stuff". Energy is not stuff; you cannot pick it up, move it, amplify it, or anything else. Energy is a property of stuff (by which I mean fields and particles).of course i know that energy is a property of particles. when summarizing as opposed perhaps to publishing peer reviewed papers (as if that is something i do) i don't see a need to go to the trouble of adding extra and superflous information of the details.
at absolute zero there should be no movement or passage of time hence it was logical to assign negative energy in that sense to that odd result because if it starts wiggling on the other side of zero thats just positive energy then how can you say it's beyond Zero?. positive movement is positive temperature.
therefore i think if we are positing unicorns i can pick any darned unicorn i like.
Ugh. I wouldn't trust Michio Kaku to tie my shoelaces. He's rather too fond of throwing away factual accuracy to make a trite phrase.
In fact, I'm surprised you haven't listed the most obvious and uncontroversial example of negative energy - nuclear binding energy*. We're surrounded, and indeed composed of, negative energy, but you can't isolate it because it's a property of the system of nucleons, and without the (considerably more massive) nucleons - no negative energy.
You see why I make the connection? To make statements about taking negative energy from X, without reference to the particles and fields that give rise to it, is meaningless.
(* tl;dr version: a deuteron weighs less than a free proton + a free neutron, because the binding energy between them is negative.)
Yeah, you can, but then it just becomes noise. You can daydream about exotic matter particles all you want, but the conversation is moot unless there's reason to believe that they exist.
@StormbringerDespite the smiley...It is a basic mistake to appeal to Authority when you try to compare 'credentials' between Kaku and momerathe in support of your argument. And who knows what credentials momerathe has?From what I know, I would back momerathe in a shoelace tying contest.Please refrain from being too flippant in future. I cannot explain what I feel to be correct physics as well as momerathe, so I too will try to improve going forward.