Author Topic: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications  (Read 27620 times)

Offline Blackjax

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #40 on: 02/27/2012 02:36 am »
Quote from: Jim
Most if not all cubesats are flying on gov't missions

OK, and your source for that is?

It is obvious.  When is the next commercial launch in the US? 

Dunno, do you know a good source for missions across all launchers including the little ones like UP Aerospace?  I'm not sure why you're asking about US launchers though, because unless I misunderstand, Cubesats are used outside the US as well and if so might be going up on non-US flights.  This kinda implies that not only is this being attempted, it is being attempted outside the government.
Denpr is a military rocket, same goes for Shitl. PSLV is govt

And you handle payloads and interact with cubesat clients for all of those in addition to the US launchers?  I'm impressed and a little curious how one gets such a job.

Offline Jim

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #41 on: 02/27/2012 02:40 am »
No, most of them are turning to NASA, since NASA is embracing cubesats.  NASA is developing hardware to accommodate cubesats on most of its missions and is collaborating with the USAF on its missions. 

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #42 on: 02/27/2012 08:49 pm »
The Single-Event-Upset rates vary WIDELY between different microcontrollers (vary by several orders of magnitude). I don't think it's reasonable to make broad characterizations.

For instance:
http://microelectronics.esa.int/conferences/mesa2010/06_S2_1120_ASTRIUM_GmbH_Andreas_Schuettauf.pdf

"ATmega128 microcontroller:
• Latch-up rate (SEL) of once in 481 years
• SEU rate of once in 690 years

AT90CAN128 microcontroller:
• Latch-up rate of once in 24 years.
• SEU rate of once in 3 month.

Both SEEs rates are calculated for 100 mils
aluminum shielding at an inclination of 51° and 400
km under quiet solar conditions"

I should point out that while the ATmega 128 is basically the same as the chip used in the Arduino (and probably can run a modified Arduino bootloader). A SEU and SEL rate of once every few hundred years is a pretty long time! Much longer than just a single month...

The biggest issue is that you basically have to test these microcontrollers. If a new manufacturing technique is used, you have to re-test them. A streamlined way to do this would be of great benefit.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline deltaV

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #43 on: 02/27/2012 10:06 pm »
A SEU does not permanently damage a microcontroller, correct?

A latch-up can permanently damage a microcontroller due to overheating, right?

Offline savuporo

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #44 on: 02/27/2012 10:42 pm »
The idea of "lets take cellphone cpus and use them in space!" is kinda funny. Normally one wouldn't do anything of the sort, as phone SoCs have lots of unneeded cruft on them and are optimized for a different usage scenario. I.e. why would i use an TI OMAP in a high reliability app if Sitara line is available in a similar price range and same performance - as it's running the same cores ?
« Last Edit: 02/27/2012 10:42 pm by savuporo »
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Offline sanman

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #45 on: 02/27/2012 11:18 pm »
What about FPGAs then?

http://www.brianhpratt.net/cms/index.php?page=fpgas-in-space

FPGAs have often been used as test/design platforms for development purposes, including development of SoCs.
But perhaps their flexible reconfigurability makes them directly advantageous for use in space, since if some element gets damaged by cosmic rays, then you can reconfigure the system to use other elements.


Offline Robotbeat

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #46 on: 02/27/2012 11:25 pm »
What about FPGAs then?

http://www.brianhpratt.net/cms/index.php?page=fpgas-in-space

FPGAs have often been used as test/design platforms for development purposes, including development of SoCs.
But perhaps their flexible reconfigurability makes them directly advantageous for use in space, since if some element gets damaged by cosmic rays, then you can reconfigure the system to use other elements.
There are also radiation-hardened FPGAs. And if you have a non-hardened FPGA, there are rather well-established methods to add redundancy to an existing design (not a perfect solution). But the nice thing is that you can pretty easily go from a standard, relatively cheap FPGAs to more expencive rad-hardened FPGAs if the environment demands it.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline sanman

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #47 on: 02/28/2012 08:25 am »
There are also radiation-hardened FPGAs. And if you have a non-hardened FPGA, there are rather well-established methods to add redundancy to an existing design (not a perfect solution). But the nice thing is that you can pretty easily go from a standard, relatively cheap FPGAs to more expencive rad-hardened FPGAs if the environment demands it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Jim was pointing out that rad-hardened chips are naturally more expensive, because they're limited production runs on specific chips. But since FPGAs are multi-purpose, and re-purposable in all sorts of different ways, then they could be produced in greater volume.


Offline john smith 19

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Re: ARM and Mobile Processors for Space Applications
« Reply #48 on: 02/29/2012 05:41 pm »
There are also radiation-hardened FPGAs. And if you have a non-hardened FPGA, there are rather well-established methods to add redundancy to an existing design (not a perfect solution). But the nice thing is that you can pretty easily go from a standard, relatively cheap FPGAs to more expencive rad-hardened FPGAs if the environment demands it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Jim was pointing out that rad-hardened chips are naturally more expensive, because they're limited production runs on specific chips. But since FPGAs are multi-purpose, and re-purposable in all sorts of different ways, then they could be produced in greater volume.

But that  rather defeats the point of this thread, which (IIUU) is to use common *hardware* for space use, as it's the *huge* costs of parts (due to the complex certification and *very* small market relative to practically any other) that makes this stuff so expensive.

Or am I missing your point?

SPARC & PowerPC exist in rad hard versions and (I *think*) ARM does as part of a rad hard FPGA so tool chains already exist to use them.

All have lots of heritage in development. Why you'd want to host Solaris or MscOS in orbit is another matter. :)
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