Author Topic: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A  (Read 40944 times)

Offline Akclark

  • Member
  • Posts: 10
  • Minden, Nebraska
    • Homepage
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #20 on: 07/19/2012 04:06 am »




Looking at this frame, can someone help me calculate the dimensions a composite airframe would need to be.



The goal is to have the project meet the X-24A dimensions on page 14 of http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700025069_1970025069.pdf this document.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
« Last Edit: 08/19/2012 12:36 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #22 on: 08/19/2012 12:54 pm »
Some helpful info on lift as a reaction force by Newtonian physics especially applicable to lifting bodies…

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/wrong1.html

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/bernnew.html

http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html
« Last Edit: 08/19/2012 12:55 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline rayleighscatter

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1098
  • Maryland
  • Liked: 565
  • Likes Given: 238
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #23 on: 08/21/2012 08:40 pm »
Does the HL-20 mockup that Langley built still exist?

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #24 on: 08/21/2012 08:42 pm »
Does the HL-20 mockup that Langley built still exist?
It went to SNC.
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Akclark

  • Member
  • Posts: 10
  • Minden, Nebraska
    • Homepage
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 2

Online JAFO

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1032
    • My hobby
  • Liked: 875
  • Likes Given: 966
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #26 on: 12/16/2012 03:21 am »
Didn't see this posted and Christmas is coming. Those who need a present should ask for Milt Thompson's "Flying Without Wings", his last book.



Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps.
— Ernest K. Gann

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #27 on: 12/16/2012 01:48 pm »
Thanks. Just ordered it from Amazon.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
« Last Edit: 12/20/2012 12:26 am by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #29 on: 12/20/2012 12:09 am »
More good reads to add to the list:
 
From Runway to Orbit Reflections of a NASA Engineer

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29425328/From-Runway-to-Orbit-Reflections-of-a-NASA-Engineer

Subsonic Aerodynamic Characteristics of the HL-20 Lifting Body

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19940012811_1994012811.pdf
« Last Edit: 12/20/2012 12:43 am by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #30 on: 12/20/2012 12:20 am »
Got home from work and found that my copy of "Flying Without Wings" has been delivered :)
Looks like I'll be settling in for a good read over the weekend.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #31 on: 12/20/2012 12:31 am »
Got home from work and found that my copy of "Flying Without Wings" has been delivered :)
Looks like I'll be settling in for a good read over the weekend.
It's a great book Chuck! Early Christmas gift to youself, they're the best kind... ;)
Enjoy! :)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Online JAFO

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1032
    • My hobby
  • Liked: 875
  • Likes Given: 966
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #32 on: 02/19/2013 02:25 am »
Got home from work and found that my copy of "Flying Without Wings" has been delivered :)
Looks like I'll be settling in for a good read over the weekend.

Bet it didn't take the entire weekend.  ;)

Now, if we could only get Gen. Engle to write a bio....
Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps.
— Ernest K. Gann

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10351
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2430
  • Likes Given: 13606
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #33 on: 08/12/2013 08:32 am »
Anyone who has watched the Shuttle land in marginal winds knows how valuable every bit of lift can be on final approach, and how much safer it would be with a lower touchdown speed and greater control margins. I cannot imagine selecting a vehicle with even slimmer safety margins for landing on a runway. Conversely the X-37, which evolved from the Shuttle design, has landed twice from space at a relatively comfortable speed of about 100 knots and with no visible TPS damage at all.
The X37b launches inside a protective shroud.
Quote
Yet I can find no indication in the Commercial Crew selection criteria that any advantage was given to a vehicle with better aerodynamic performance (i.e. the OSC Prometheus). Apparently the Dreamchaser was chosen over the Prometheus because of its larger passenger capacity (4 vs 6, although both met the spec) without any consideration of such basic aerodynamic criteria as lift and drag.
Perhaps because they are not that basic?
BTW You might find TA heppenheimer's "Facing the heat barrier" interesting on the subject of all US lifting body work, including ASSET, PRIME and the X30.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #34 on: 11/09/2013 12:44 am »
Time for some updates with the first flight of Dream Chaser! :)

Interesting bit about the HL-20 L/D of 4.3

Dream Chaser landed at 161 kts...


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/Features/M2-F1_50_years_later.html#.Un2TlCcudlM

To those that came before Dream Chaser...







« Last Edit: 11/11/2013 01:41 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #35 on: 11/09/2013 07:37 pm »
HL-10 wintunnel tests, single and multi fin...



HL-10 landing tests and water tank ditching tests... Both wheeled and skid gear configurations...
(tumble at 4:35 for those that need to see one...)   ::)


« Last Edit: 11/09/2013 07:56 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #36 on: 11/11/2013 01:51 pm »
From HL-20 to Dream Chaser...


"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #37 on: 01/05/2014 06:03 pm »
I came across a new L/D number of 5.8 from the HL-20 program on the NTRS. Would be nice if we ever get a number for Dream Chaser someday to compare...

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19910069242&hterms=hl-20&qs=Nm%3D17%7CCollection%7CNACA%7C%7C123%7CCollection%7CNASA%2520STI%26Ntx%3Dmode%2520matchallpartial%26Ntk%3DAll%26N%3D0%26No%3D30%26Ntt%3Dhl-20
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Online JAFO

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1032
    • My hobby
  • Liked: 875
  • Likes Given: 966
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #38 on: 02/16/2016 01:38 am »
I was wondering what M2-F1 stood for, I've gotten as far as finding out that M=Manned, F=Flight, and figger that F1 stood for the Flight version 1, was there a M1-F1?


TIA
Anyone can do the job when things are going right. In this business we play for keeps.
— Ernest K. Gann

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: Lifting Body Air and Spacecraft Q & A
« Reply #39 on: 02/16/2016 02:01 am »
I was wondering what M2-F1 stood for, I've gotten as far as finding out that M=Manned, F=Flight, and figger that F1 stood for the Flight version 1, was there a M1-F1?


TIA
M1L "half cone" was deemed too radical.... Correct about the M2-F1

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/M2-F1/HTML/EC62-175.html
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/history/pastprojects/Lifting/M2F1/#.VsKOa2grKhc
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-011-DFRC.html

"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1