Author Topic: The Kurs Problem  (Read 37904 times)

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10348
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 721
  • Likes Given: 729
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #40 on: 04/21/2012 04:25 pm »
Anyone have an idea how many Kurs "electronics boxes" were manfactured?

How many are available for being re-used?

2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant..." --Isoroku Yamamoto

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #41 on: 04/22/2012 05:03 am »
Anyone have an idea how many Kurs "electronics boxes" were manfactured?

How many are available for being re-used?



With up to 10 missions a year flying Kurs, the implication is that at least 15 boxes still exist. I don't know if ATV boxes are retrievable, if so, that would add a couple more to the inventory.

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #42 on: 04/22/2012 03:45 pm »
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/04/progress-m-15m-docks-iss-busy-period-visiting-vehicle-activities/

During the course of its mission, Progress M-15M will perform the unusual procedure of undocking from the ISS, spending two days in free flight, and then re-docking to the ISS in order to test a new Kurs antenna. Kurs is the system that enables Russian vehicles to automatically dock to the ISS without any human intervention.

Offline Space Pete

Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #43 on: 04/22/2012 05:54 pm »
FYI, I did consider mentioning the possible millimeter-band Kurs in the article, but since it isn't confirmed, I didn't (articles aren't the place for speculation).

Hopefully though more details will come to light about this interesting issue.
« Last Edit: 04/22/2012 05:54 pm by Space Pete »
NASASpaceflight ISS Editor

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #44 on: 04/22/2012 08:17 pm »
Progress cannot re-dock with ISS, unless TORU is used. I don't think that this re-docking will use TORU, so if its a test of Kurs, it must be a test of the new antenna (which is very probable).

Now, this is where it gets interesting: the reason that Progress re-dockings use TORU is because one of the two main Kurs is disabled just before Progress docks with ISS - a pyro forces the antenna backwards, away from potential impingements with ISS. This antenna is used for short range operations. So, the new Kurs antenna is not just for the last few meters, but also it must replace the existing Kurs system for the last 100 meters (since the existing Kurs antenna system is disabled). In other words, the new Kurs antenna will do what TORU normally does during a re-docking.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gien, France
    • Kosmonavtika
  • Liked: 670
  • Likes Given: 134
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #45 on: 04/22/2012 09:07 pm »
The problem is : for now, there isn't any new "millimetric" passive antenna on the ISS...
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

Offline Nicolas PILLET

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gien, France
    • Kosmonavtika
  • Liked: 670
  • Likes Given: 134
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #46 on: 04/22/2012 09:25 pm »
Energia documentation shows that Kurs-NA operates on the same frequency as the current Kurs

Where did you find such documentation ?
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

Offline Nicolas PILLET

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gien, France
    • Kosmonavtika
  • Liked: 670
  • Likes Given: 134
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #47 on: 04/22/2012 09:54 pm »
Found in NK : Kurs-NA will begin flying on vehicle n°711 and will replace Kurs-A.
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #48 on: 04/22/2012 10:53 pm »
Energia documentation shows that Kurs-NA operates on the same frequency as the current Kurs

Where did you find such documentation ?

In this thread:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25732.msg840699#msg840699

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #49 on: 04/22/2012 10:57 pm »
The problem is : for now, there isn't any new "millimetric" passive antenna on the ISS...

AFAIK, this is correct, although NIITP implies that such an antenna exists on Pirs (or do they mean "Poisk"?).

In all cases, no one seems to know precisely which ISS antenna will communicate with the new antenna on Progress.
« Last Edit: 04/22/2012 11:08 pm by Danderman »

Offline Nicolas PILLET

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gien, France
    • Kosmonavtika
  • Liked: 670
  • Likes Given: 134
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #50 on: 04/22/2012 11:27 pm »
Interesting informations on Wikipedia :

Quote
С 2003 года в отделении ведутся работы по созданию комплекса аппаратуры «Курс-НА», предназначенной для замены активной части аппаратуры «Курс» на перспективных космических аппаратах. Особенностью новой аппаратуры является почти полный отказ от аналоговой обработки сигнала с выполнением всех функций микропроцессорами, введение в аппаратуру новой антенны АО-753А, представляющей из себя малоэлементную антенную решетку с фазовым управлением. Новая антенна будет выполнять функции антенны 2АО-ВКА и АКР-ВКА, входящих в аппаратуру «Курс». Контрольно-проверочная аппаратура для комплекса «Курс-Н» разрабатывается с решением многих задач обработки контрольной информации программными, а не аппаратными методами, что позволит существенно сократить вес, габариты и потребление новой КПА по сравнению с аналогичной аппаратурой для «Курса». Кроме того повышаются автоматизация и достоверность контроля.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81_%28%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%29
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #51 on: 04/22/2012 11:44 pm »
Interesting informations on Wikipedia :

Quote
С 2003 года в отделении ведутся работы по созданию комплекса аппаратуры «Курс-НА», предназначенной для замены активной части аппаратуры «Курс» на перспективных космических аппаратах. Особенностью новой аппаратуры является почти полный отказ от аналоговой обработки сигнала с выполнением всех функций микропроцессорами, введение в аппаратуру новой антенны АО-753А, представляющей из себя малоэлементную антенную решетку с фазовым управлением. Новая антенна будет выполнять функции антенны 2АО-ВКА и АКР-ВКА, входящих в аппаратуру «Курс». Контрольно-проверочная аппаратура для комплекса «Курс-Н» разрабатывается с решением многих задач обработки контрольной информации программными, а не аппаратными методами, что позволит существенно сократить вес, габариты и потребление новой КПА по сравнению с аналогичной аппаратурой для «Курса». Кроме того повышаются автоматизация и достоверность контроля.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81_%28%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F%29

Yes, as I mentioned above, the new antenna is functionally a replacement for the 2 main Kurs short range antennas 2АО-ВКА and АКР-ВКА. The Wikipedia article also states that the new antenna uses "phase control", which I suspect means that it is a phased array antenna.
« Last Edit: 04/22/2012 11:46 pm by Danderman »

Offline patchfree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • webmaster and russian space fan
  • Poitiers, France
    • kosmosnews.fr, l'actualité spatiale russe en français
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #52 on: 04/23/2012 07:58 pm »


The new antenna on Progress M-15M (on right).
« Last Edit: 04/23/2012 08:01 pm by patchfree »
http://kosmosnews.fr l'actualité spatiale russe en français

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #53 on: 04/23/2012 08:03 pm »
Compare the antenna on Progress with this image of a phased array, millimeter band Kurs-MM antenna.  Note that both use a central horn and 8 axial horns.


« Last Edit: 04/23/2012 08:05 pm by Danderman »

Offline patchfree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • webmaster and russian space fan
  • Poitiers, France
    • kosmosnews.fr, l'actualité spatiale russe en français
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #54 on: 04/23/2012 08:55 pm »
From the table published earlier, the difference between Kurs-MM and Kurs-NA is that Kurs-MM is a millimeter system (32 GHz) while kurs-NA a centimeter system (3.2 Ghz).
« Last Edit: 04/23/2012 08:56 pm by patchfree »
http://kosmosnews.fr l'actualité spatiale russe en français

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #55 on: 04/23/2012 08:58 pm »
From the table published earlier, the difference between Kurs-MM and Kurs-NA is that Kurs-MM is a millimeter system (32 GHz) while kurs-NA a centimeter system (3.2 Ghz).

Correct.

However, all sources here state that Kurs-MM is not going to be used. So, why is a millimeter band phased array antenna on Progress today?

Offline patchfree

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • webmaster and russian space fan
  • Poitiers, France
    • kosmosnews.fr, l'actualité spatiale russe en français
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #56 on: 04/23/2012 09:01 pm »
From the table published earlier, the difference between Kurs-MM and Kurs-NA is that Kurs-MM is a millimeter system (32 GHz) while kurs-NA a centimeter system (3.2 Ghz).

Correct.

However, all sources here state that Kurs-MM is not going to be used. So, why is a millimeter band phased array antenna on Progress today?


I don't know.
Another question: do you know why the antenna (old) is rotating during the rendez-vous?
http://kosmosnews.fr l'actualité spatiale russe en français

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #57 on: 04/23/2012 09:22 pm »
From the table published earlier, the difference between Kurs-MM and Kurs-NA is that Kurs-MM is a millimeter system (32 GHz) while kurs-NA a centimeter system (3.2 Ghz).

Correct.

However, all sources here state that Kurs-MM is not going to be used. So, why is a millimeter band phased array antenna on Progress today?


I don't know.
Another question: do you know why the antenna (old) is rotating during the rendez-vous?

It doesn't rotate anymore, they exchanged the moving part for a software solution.

Online Stan Black

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3135
  • Liked: 377
  • Likes Given: 228
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #58 on: 04/29/2012 08:51 am »

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12095
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18197
  • Likes Given: 12158
Re: The Kurs Problem
« Reply #59 on: 04/29/2012 09:43 am »


The new antenna on Progress M-15M (on right).

http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/MAKS-2005_12-08/CRW_8699.jpg
OK, do I get this right? The Progress sports an antenna that was shown on a different vehicle nearly seven years ago?
« Last Edit: 04/29/2012 09:45 am by woods170 »

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0