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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Falcon Missions Section => Topic started by: ArbitraryConstant on 03/22/2013 04:31 pm

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ArbitraryConstant on 03/22/2013 04:31 pm
Starting this thread because it is likely the next launch and I don't see an existing thread for it. Mods please do the needful if I am in error.

This is a momentous flight for a bunch of reasons:

-First flight of the v1.1.
-First flight of the Merlin 1D and Merlin 1D Vac engines, excepting Grasshopper hops.
-First flight from Vandenberg.
-First flight of the Falcon 9 fairing.

The schedule is nominally June, but standard space and SpaceX schedule skepticism applies.



Other threads for CASSIOPE:
SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD (2) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32859.0)
SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - NET Sept. 29 - PRE-LAUNCH UPDATES (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32685.0)
SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - Sept. 29 - LAUNCH UPDATES (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32946.0)
SpaceX CASSIOPE Launch Viewing Thread (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32534.0)
California Secrets - SpaceX F9 v1.1 Cassiope Launch Party Thread (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32683.0)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/22/2013 04:48 pm
Required thread, good intro post and the correct title format.

Much appreciated! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/22/2013 05:07 pm
Per http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg1025272#msg1025272

Shouldn't the date in the topic be June 18th?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ArbitraryConstant on 03/23/2013 12:35 pm
Per http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg1025272#msg1025272

Shouldn't the date in the topic be June 18th?
Possibly. My understanding is that slippage is widely anticipated at this point. What's the convention? Put the date and update if/when it slips?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: fast on 03/23/2013 01:03 pm
I thought they will keep Merlin 1D Vac for FH?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 03/23/2013 05:36 pm
-First flight of the v1.1.
-First flight of the Merlin 1D and Merlin 1D Vac engines, excepting Grasshopper hops.
-First flight from Vandenberg.
-First flight of the Falcon 9 fairing.

Gulp.

More pressure, I think, then the first F9 launch...

If all goes well, then we also have (rumored) post separation first stage action - some experimentation with pitch-over, re-start, some manner of re-entry attempt
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 03/23/2013 05:37 pm
Per http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg1025272#msg1025272

Shouldn't the date in the topic be June 18th?
Possibly. My understanding is that slippage is widely anticipated at this point. What's the convention? Put the date and update if/when it slips?

This source points to June 18th, so I would go for putting the date in the topic.
http://epop.phys.ucalgary.ca/schedule.html

If you have a reliable, publically available source pointing to a slippage, then maybe put NET before the date?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/23/2013 05:42 pm
-First flight of the v1.1.
-First flight of the Merlin 1D and Merlin 1D Vac engines, excepting Grasshopper hops.
-First flight from Vandenberg.
-First flight of the Falcon 9 fairing.

Gulp.

More pressure, I think, then the first F9 launch...

If all goes well, then we also have (rumored) post separation first stage action - some experimentation with pitch-over, re-start, some manner of re-entry attempt
I disagree. SpaceX has now shown they know what they're doing. For the first F9 launch, they were still being dismissed as sort of overgrown hobbyists. The first 3 Falcon 1 launches (all failures) were still fresh in their minds.

And don't forget, they had recovery plans for v1.0 as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Occupymars on 03/23/2013 05:45 pm
I thought they will keep Merlin 1D Vac for FH?
Welcome to the Forum Fast. Doe's this answer your question falcon 9 v1.0 = 9 merlin 1C engines and a merlin 1C vac engine. New falcon 9 v1.1= 9 Merlin 1D engine's and a Merlin 1D vac engine. Falcon heavy= 27 merlin 1D engine's and a merlin 1D Vac.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 03/23/2013 05:47 pm
-First flight of the v1.1.
-First flight of the Merlin 1D and Merlin 1D Vac engines, excepting Grasshopper hops.
-First flight from Vandenberg.
-First flight of the Falcon 9 fairing.

Gulp.

More pressure, I think, then the first F9 launch...

If all goes well, then we also have (rumored) post separation first stage action - some experimentation with pitch-over, re-start, some manner of re-entry attempt
I disagree. SpaceX has now shown they know what they're doing. For the first F9 launch, they were still being dismissed as sort of overgrown hobbyists. The first 3 Falcon 1 launches (all failures) were still fresh in their minds.

And don't forget, they had recovery plans for v1.0 as well.

... and hence the pressure.

With first flight of F9 they were underdogs, and hell even a partial success would have been a good thing.

Now they are the well-recognized challenger.  A lost more to lose, and so a lot more pressure.

And a lot more confidence, sure.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Occupymars on 03/23/2013 05:54 pm
-First flight of the v1.1.
-First flight of the Merlin 1D and Merlin 1D Vac engines, excepting Grasshopper hops.
-First flight from Vandenberg.
-First flight of the Falcon 9 fairing.

Gulp.

More pressure, I think, then the first F9 launch...

If all goes well, then we also have (rumored) post separation first stage action - some experimentation with pitch-over, re-start, some manner of re-entry attempt
I disagree. SpaceX has now shown they know what they're doing. For the first F9 launch, they were still being dismissed as sort of overgrown hobbyists. The first 3 Falcon 1 launches (all failures) were still fresh in their minds.

And don't forget, they had recovery plans for v1.0 as well.
yeah but no matter how you look at it it's still a new launch vehicle and most of us know that gruesome statistic that 75% have had at least one failure in the first three flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/23/2013 05:58 pm
But it's not a completely new vehicle. This is a company that now has a track-record and many of their systems are no doubt the same or similar (avionics, etc). It's significantly different, sure, but they've validated their processes for designing and testing new vehicles of this class. For example, their practice of acceptance-testing all the stages before flight has served them pretty well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Orbiter on 03/23/2013 06:24 pm
Per http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg1025272#msg1025272

Shouldn't the date in the topic be June 18th?
Possibly. My understanding is that slippage is widely anticipated at this point. What's the convention? Put the date and update if/when it slips?

I haven't heard anything like that, just everyone assumes it will slip simply because of SpaceX's track record. It's been June 18th for a while now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Occupymars on 03/23/2013 06:29 pm
Lets keep our finger's crossed for this flight. But since this launch vehicle has 9 engine's on it's first stage let's not be surprised if it has an engine out on one of it's early launches as seen with falcon 9 version one. I expect at least one engine failure out of it's first 10 launches. Probably two if falcon 9 version one was anything to go by.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ArbitraryConstant on 03/23/2013 07:29 pm
I haven't heard anything like that, just everyone assumes it will slip simply because of SpaceX's track record. It's been June 18th for a while now.
Ok. Thread consensus seems to be put that up unless/until it slips.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 03/23/2013 07:54 pm
lets keep our finger's crossed for this flight. but since this launch vehicle has 9 engine's on its first stage let's not be surprised if it has an engine out on it's early launch's as seen with falcon 9 version one I expect at least one engine failure out of it's first 10 launches. probably two if falcon 9 version one was anything to go by.

I think you are maybe being a tad extreme in your concern. They have proven they learn from earlier mistakes. They have a robust test program. After all, their F9 flights have had a far better success record than the F1, despite the F9 being a significantly more complex launch vehicle. And the step from F9 to the v1.1 is far less.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Halidon on 03/23/2013 10:04 pm
I haven't heard anything like that, just everyone assumes it will slip simply because of SpaceX's track record. It's been June 18th for a while now.
Ok. Thread consensus seems to be put that up unless/until it slips.
Just use "NET June 18th." Covers the date and the possibility of slippage, without everyone getting in a twist.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 03/24/2013 03:37 am
If all goes well, then we also have (rumored) post separation first stage action - some experimentation with pitch-over, re-start, some manner of re-entry attempt
and a soft water touch down. Hope we get to see that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 03/24/2013 05:27 am
and a soft water touch down. Hope we get to see that.

Now there is an optimist.  ;D

You are aware, if that happens the largest remaining obstacle to first stage reusability would be finding a suitable landing location?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 03/24/2013 06:28 am
and a soft water touch down. Hope we get to see that.

Now there is an optimist.  ;D

You are aware, if that happens the largest remaining obstacle to first stage reusability would be finding a suitable landing location?

Landing location is Vandenberg, biggest obstacle will be FAA approval.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/24/2013 08:21 am
and a soft water touch down. Hope we get to see that.

Now there is an optimist.  ;D

You are aware, if that happens the largest remaining obstacle to first stage reusability would be finding a suitable landing location?


Thats only half the problem. Presumably they'd just slow themselves on the downward trajectory and land where their normal water impact would be. They still need to work out turning around and thrusting back to the landing location after that.

But I agree, if they actually manage a soft water landing my rational side will be very impressed, but my emotional side will be jumping for joy and dying of shock simultaneously.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mader Levap on 03/24/2013 12:24 pm
But I agree, if they actually manage a soft water landing
Hard water landing would be for me absolutely enough, considering currently stage just fall apart during reentry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 03/24/2013 12:38 pm

Hard water landing would be for me absolutely enough, considering currently stage just fall apart during reentry.

Yep, one step at a time. Also, the proposed experiment has essentially zero impact on the payload.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 03/24/2013 07:18 pm
With a possible water landing. Will SpaceX add some floatation gear to the 1st stage? Or will they relied on the natural buoyancy of the empty propellant tanks. Presuming the stage comes down more or less intact.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/24/2013 07:28 pm
With a possible water landing. Will SpaceX add some floatation gear to the 1st stage? Or will they relied on the natural buoyancy of the empty propellant tanks. Presuming the stage comes down more or less intact.

We don't know the answer to that question. I would guess "no", because I feel this test is rather ad-hoc so they wouldn't add anything that they didn't plan to have on the actual Falcon 9 v1.1. They have no plans to do water landings in the future as far as we know, so its unlikely they would design this in.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 03/24/2013 07:39 pm
Agree with that. the big unknown is how the stage will behave during atmospheric flight. If they can restart and reduce the entry speed so that it survives then they will have gained useful information. A restart just before hitting the sea would be icing on the cake.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 03/24/2013 10:07 pm
Some details about the payload:

  http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/cassiope.html

"CAScade, Smallsat and IOnospheric Polar Explorer" (CASSIOPE) is a made-in-Canada small satellite from the Canadian Space Agency. It is comprised of three working elements that will use the first multi-purpose small satellite platform from the Canadian Small Satellite Bus Program. This generic, low-cost platform will carry two payloads: e-POP, a scientific payload consisting of eight high-resolution instruments used to probe the characteristics of near-Earth space, and Cascade, a high data rate, high capacity store and forward technology payload from MDA Corporation.

Together, e-POP and Cascade will achieve both a scientific and a commercial objective: e-POP will provide scientists with unprecedented details about the Earth's ionosphere, thermosphere and magnetosphere, helping scientists understand the cause and effects of potentially dangerous space weather, while Cascade will demonstrate a new digital communications 'courier' service provided by MDA.

CASSIOPE is hexagonal in shape, measuring just 180 cm corner-to-corner and 125 cm high and weighing in at just over 500 kg. Partners in the mission include the University of Calgary, Commuications Research Centre in Ottawa, Bristol Aerospace of Winnipeg, and MDA of Richmond, B.C., the prime contractor for the overall mission.

See also: http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/quickfacts.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 03/24/2013 10:58 pm
while Cascade will demonstrate a new digital communications 'courier' service provided by MDA.

Does this mean the folks at the South Pole area in the Antarctic will  get high bandwidth burst satellite communication?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 03/24/2013 11:04 pm
while Cascade will demonstrate a new digital communications 'courier' service provided by MDA.

Does this mean the folks at the South Pole area in the Antarctic will  get high bandwidth burst satellite communication?

Maybe. :)

More details: http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/cascade.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 03/24/2013 11:27 pm
anything on the timeline when the device was finished being built?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/25/2013 01:36 am
anything on the timeline when the device was finished being built?

2009 is when testing finished apparently.

http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/schedule.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ArbitraryConstant on 03/28/2013 06:15 pm
Per the CRS-2 conference call, they will be attempting a velocity reduction burn for reentry and another burn for a soft splashdown with this flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: 8900 on 03/29/2013 04:40 am
I have a question:why use a launch vehicle with 8mT+ SSO capacity to launch a 500kg satellite?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/29/2013 04:43 am
I have a question:why use a launch vehicle with 8mT+ SSO capacity to launch a 500kg satellite?

Because it was once a F1E payload, then the rocket disappeared from SpaceX's plans. Plus this is a test flight.

Such payload mismatches are rare, but not exactly a first - see Atlas V/Delta IV launching the fairly small DMSPs for the USAF (which bought a bunch of EELVs) or Ariane 5 launching the French Helios spysats (no other suitable launcher available at the time).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/29/2013 12:04 pm
I believe it was also to large for the Falcon 1 payload fairing. But my memory is fuzzy...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 03/29/2013 05:44 pm
Once the first stage for this flight has turned around how do they plan on stabilizing the first stage end down on it's free fall. Clearly they are not lighting the center engine until the last minute. Watching all the Falcon 9 launch videos it appears that upon separation the first stage falls toward it's interstage. How do you keep the rocket from rolling over? Is SpaceX using thruster jets for stabilization on the way down?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/29/2013 05:56 pm
Once the first stage for this flight has turned around how do they plan on stabilizing the first stage end down on it's free fall.

They're probably going to use the cold-gas system.  They'll need to dampen out the kick from the upper stage ignition anyway before they align for the braking burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 03/29/2013 05:57 pm
Once the first stage for this flight has turned around how do they plan on stabilizing the first stage end down on it's free fall. Clearly they are not lighting the center engine until the last minute. Watching all the Falcon 9 launch videos it appears that upon separation the first stage falls toward it's interstage. How do you keep the rocket from rolling over? Is SpaceX using thruster jets for stabilization on the way down?

Cold gas RCS will be used to point it the right way.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/29/2013 07:28 pm
Once the first stage for this flight has turned around how do they plan on stabilizing the first stage end down on it's free fall.

They're probably going to use the cold-gas system.  They'll need to dampen out the kick from the upper stage ignition anyway before they align for the braking burn.

They won't do the braking burn right away anyway. Remember they're on a ballistic upward trajectory. They'd wait for engine re-ignite until they were on a downward trajectory near the upper layers of the atmosphere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 03/29/2013 08:58 pm
Quote
They won't do the braking burn right away anyway.

You think? If I were planning the manuvers, I'd make it as close to realistic, back to the pad, as is safely practical. Maybe landing in the water a few dozen miles off the coast of Vandenburg. What would the range safety issues be there, considering that they just launched maybe 10 minutes before landing or splash down? Proving that they can get the S1 back to the area of the landing pad comes only second to proving that it doesn't break up on the way back.

If they are going to do it, they may as well do as much as they can. JMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 03/29/2013 09:37 pm
Quote
They won't do the braking burn right away anyway.

You think? If I were planning the manuvers, I'd make it as close to realistic, back to the pad, as is safely practical. Maybe landing in the water a few dozen miles off the coast of Vandenburg. What would the range safety issues be there, considering that they just launched maybe 10 minutes before landing or splash down? Proving that they can get the S1 back to the area of the landing pad comes only second to proving that it doesn't break up on the way back.

If they are going to do it, they may as well do as much as they can. JMO.

This is the Cassiope thread. The first launch. Elon said explicitly that it will fly along its elliptic trajectory. No boostback for the first try.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: krytek on 03/29/2013 09:57 pm
Quote
They won't do the braking burn right away anyway.

You think? If I were planning the manuvers, I'd make it as close to realistic, back to the pad, as is safely practical. Maybe landing in the water a few dozen miles off the coast of Vandenburg. What would the range safety issues be there, considering that they just launched maybe 10 minutes before landing or splash down? Proving that they can get the S1 back to the area of the landing pad comes only second to proving that it doesn't break up on the way back.

If they are going to do it, they may as well do as much as they can. JMO.

This is the Cassiope thread. The first launch. Elon said explicitly that it will fly along its elliptic trajectory. No boostback for the first try.
Anyone care to guess where along the elliptic trajectory? close to apogee?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 03/29/2013 10:05 pm
Quote
They won't do the braking burn right away anyway.

You think? If I were planning the manuvers, I'd make it as close to realistic, back to the pad, as is safely practical. Maybe landing in the water a few dozen miles off the coast of Vandenburg. What would the range safety issues be there, considering that they just launched maybe 10 minutes before landing or splash down? Proving that they can get the S1 back to the area of the landing pad comes only second to proving that it doesn't break up on the way back.

If they are going to do it, they may as well do as much as they can. JMO.

What they are testing is the slow-down burn and the "how fast is too fast" question.  Any burn that's too early is just wasted, since the stage speeds up as it falls back down
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 03/29/2013 11:37 pm
Quote
They won't do the braking burn right away anyway.

You think? If I were planning the manuvers, I'd make it as close to realistic, back to the pad, as is safely practical. Maybe landing in the water a few dozen miles off the coast of Vandenburg. What would the range safety issues be there, considering that they just launched maybe 10 minutes before landing or splash down? Proving that they can get the S1 back to the area of the landing pad comes only second to proving that it doesn't break up on the way back.

If they are going to do it, they may as well do as much as they can. JMO.

This is the Cassiope thread. The first launch. Elon said explicitly that it will fly along its elliptic trajectory. No boostback for the first try.
Anyone care to guess where along the elliptic trajectory? close to apogee?

No, presumably close to atmospheric entry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: krytek on 03/29/2013 11:59 pm
Quote
They won't do the braking burn right away anyway.

You think? If I were planning the manuvers, I'd make it as close to realistic, back to the pad, as is safely practical. Maybe landing in the water a few dozen miles off the coast of Vandenburg. What would the range safety issues be there, considering that they just launched maybe 10 minutes before landing or splash down? Proving that they can get the S1 back to the area of the landing pad comes only second to proving that it doesn't break up on the way back.

If they are going to do it, they may as well do as much as they can. JMO.

This is the Cassiope thread. The first launch. Elon said explicitly that it will fly along its elliptic trajectory. No boostback for the first try.
Anyone care to guess where along the elliptic trajectory? close to apogee?

No, presumably close to atmospheric entry.
why?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/30/2013 12:13 am
No, presumably close to atmospheric entry.
why?

At apogee, speed is at its minimum. You can drop the speed to zero, but it will still gain significant velocity again before atmospheric drag becomes significant.

At entry-interface, velocity is at a maximum. At that point, you retroburn enough to keep the drag and thermal loads within survivable limits and then drag will keep you at terminal velocity the rest of the way.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/30/2013 01:11 am
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 03/30/2013 01:47 am
Thanks for the answers. Hope SpaceX provides split screen video. One with the second stage and satellite release and the other on first stage reentry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 03/30/2013 02:02 am
This launch of CASSIOPE will be a first, in as much as, there will be as much or more attention on the first stage after it's done it's job, as during.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 03/30/2013 04:13 am
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/30/2013 09:51 am
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.

Disagree.

Re-entry is the really hard part, and will include a slow-down burn. If they can prove that OK, then there's nothing difficult about also doing a boost-back burn in later tests.

Once they survive re-entry (possibly not on the first attempt), they can prove out the landing process.

Adding a boost-back burn would just be unnecessary complication on early tests - certainly the first one.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 03/30/2013 09:56 am
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Why?
1) Testing attitude control of first stage after staging;
2) Testing engine restart and performance;
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);
4) Testing attitude control for landing;
5) Testing low altitude-backward motion engine restart;
6) Testing landing software.
Something missing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/30/2013 10:19 am
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);

I'm wondering about that.

Would they try a larger slow-down burn to give the stage a really easy time through re-entry on the first go, then ramp it down (ramp up re-entry speed) on subsequent tests?

There's value in recovering the stage and tearing it apart to see how it coped, as that could refine models of the optimal re-entry speed.


I guess there are three options:-
1) start low, and ramp up the re-entry speed until they find a problem - either break-ups or in post-flight analysis.
2) start high, and ramp down the re-entry speed until one survives. [Edit: least likely, I think.]
3) target the expected re-entry speed and see how it copes, then adjust as required.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 03/30/2013 10:37 am
@MP99
High altitude high speed test are something difficult to simulate/test outside real conditions.
I would expect SpaceX zeroing on this part after suffering some bruising on the parachute recovery attempt.
But the idea of a softer approach is reasonable.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 03/30/2013 03:08 pm
The upside of starting with too much slow-down is that you have an article to recover, potentially, so can learn more.

Also, next flight as people noted has a large propellant margin.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/30/2013 03:14 pm
I'm not sure how this test would differ from an actual boost back flight profile besides having a different flight direction. Why is there a claim that they will boost back, re-enter ballistically and the restart near the surface? If they need to slow down before entry interface then the mission will be a three burn re-entry not a two burn one. Burn to reverse trajectory, burn to slow down as it enters the atmosphere, and a third burn to slow down to zero velocity at zero altitude.

Edit: Grammar.

Also this is off topic here. We should talk in Falcon 9 v1.1 forum or in reusability forum.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 03/30/2013 03:17 pm
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Why?
1) Testing attitude control of first stage after staging;
2) Testing engine restart and performance;
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);
4) Testing attitude control for landing;
5) Testing low altitude-backward motion engine restart;
6) Testing landing software.
Something missing?

Did I respond to YOU? (does kevin-rf post under multiple aliases?)

No. Just countering kevin-rf's 'claim' that boost-back was an essential point of this test, that it had to hit the atmosphere at the same speed that a boost-back flight would. I'm sure they will try to get somewhat close, but a ballistic trajectory will most likely have a larger horizontal velocity than a "lofted" boost-back one.

MY claim is that surviving reentry is the point of this test. Everything else is gravy.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 03/30/2013 03:26 pm
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Why?
1) Testing attitude control of first stage after staging;
2) Testing engine restart and performance;
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);
4) Testing attitude control for landing;
5) Testing low altitude-backward motion engine restart;
6) Testing landing software.
Something missing?

Since we seem to agree that they will not attempt a boost back of any form on this first test, then they should touch down with excess fuel. The amount of this excess fuel will give a rough estimate of the fuel available for boost back on subsequent test flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 03/30/2013 03:33 pm
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Why?
1) Testing attitude control of first stage after staging;
2) Testing engine restart and performance;
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);
4) Testing attitude control for landing;
5) Testing low altitude-backward motion engine restart;
6) Testing landing software.
Something missing?

Since we seem to agree that they will not attempt a boost back of any form on this first test, then they should touch down with excess fuel. The amount of this excess fuel will give a rough estimate of the fuel available for boost back on subsequent test flights.

No it will not. This mission is launching a 500kg satellite. There is a crazy amount of margin. This is also a test flight landing, anything done here is little evidence to how they actually plan to do things, just as early grasshopper tests had a different flight profile.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 03/30/2013 03:38 pm
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Why?
1) Testing attitude control of first stage after staging;
2) Testing engine restart and performance;
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);
4) Testing attitude control for landing;
5) Testing low altitude-backward motion engine restart;
6) Testing landing software.
Something missing?

Did I respond to YOU? (does kevin-rf post under multiple aliases?)

No. Just countering kevin-rf's 'claim' that boost-back was an essential point of this test, that it had to hit the atmosphere at the same speed that a boost-back flight would. I'm sure they will try to get somewhat close, but a ballistic trajectory will most likely have a larger horizontal velocity than a "lofted" boost-back one.

MY claim is that surviving reentry is the point of this test. Everything else is gravy.

Did I something bad asking you what was wrong in kevin-rf's post?
By the way, I'm still not able to understand why kevin-rf's claims are wrong.
a) If you do a brake burn it will be made in the same attitude as a boostback burn (ie engine first, horizontal stage to kill horizontal speed).
b) When your horizontal speed will be equal (except for the direction) to the foreseen horizontal boostback speed, your stage will be in a ballistic trajectory mirrored to that foreseen for the boostback.

Seems simple  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: simonbp on 03/30/2013 03:41 pm
I have a question:why use a launch vehicle with 8mT+ SSO capacity to launch a 500kg satellite?
Because it was once a F1E payload, then the rocket disappeared from SpaceX's plans. Plus this is a test flight.

Actually I think it was originally bought by MDA as Falcon 5 payload. A paper manifest I have from 2006 lists it as a Falcon 9 from Kwaj, but they were already discussing at the time launching from CCAFS and doing a massive dogleg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/30/2013 03:51 pm
Since the point of boost back is to kill the forward horizontal velocity component and replace it with enough horizontal component to reach the landing zone, the point of the test should be to kill enough forward motion to hit the atmospheric interface down range at the same speed as a boost back will hit the atmosphere at.

Yes, but that just shows that you are not understanding the point of this test.
Why?
1) Testing attitude control of first stage after staging;
2) Testing engine restart and performance;
3) Testing first stage reentry with the same parameters (only direction is different);
4) Testing attitude control for landing;
5) Testing low altitude-backward motion engine restart;
6) Testing landing software.
Something missing?

Did I respond to YOU? (does kevin-rf post under multiple aliases?)

No. Just countering kevin-rf's 'claim' that boost-back was an essential point of this test, that it had to hit the atmosphere at the same speed that a boost-back flight would. I'm sure they will try to get somewhat close, but a ballistic trajectory will most likely have a larger horizontal velocity than a "lofted" boost-back one.

MY claim is that surviving reentry is the point of this test. Everything else is gravy.

Make your mind up.

kevin-rf said there'd be no boost-back, and you refuted him.

Everyone else piled in and agreed there'd be no boost-back.

Now, you seem to be saying there will be no boost-back, so why did you disagree with kevin-rf???

cheers, Martin

Edit: or did you just mid-read kevin-rf's post in the first place?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 03/30/2013 05:23 pm
Sigh. Everyone seems to be under te impression what the boost-back reentry speed will be, so therefore SpaceX will try to enter at that speed now.

But the crucial thing they are missing is that not even SpaceX knows what that will be yet - they are going to experiment and see what stresses the 1st stage can take. They are going to slowly get there by pushing margins.

This is why you cannot say that this flights booster will enter at boost-back velocity. It also depends on how lofted the ultimate boost-back trajectory will end up. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 03/30/2013 11:19 pm
Sigh. Everyone seems to be under te impression what the boost-back reentry speed will be, so therefore SpaceX will try to enter at that speed now.

But the crucial thing they are missing is that not even SpaceX knows what that will be yet - they are going to experiment and see what stresses the 1st stage can take. They are going to slowly get there by pushing margins.

This is why you cannot say that this flights booster will enter at boost-back velocity. It also depends on how lofted the ultimate boost-back trajectory will end up. 

Mostly agree but it is also true that SpaceX is not operating in a knowledge vacuum. They know the theory, they know their plan, they know their simulation results, they have a nominal trajectory plan and they expect success. The test is to discover what parts of what they know is false or not sufficiently precise and where they have been to conservative in their preparations.

I hope they don't break their RP-1 tank on touchdown and cause an oil slick.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/31/2013 12:49 am

Did I respond to YOU? (does kevin-rf post under multiple aliases?)

No, I only have one account, sorry...

I was pointing out this is a simple test, any test requires two additional restarts.

The first restart to kill enough forward velocity to be able to survive reentry. You do not kill your vertical velocity component.

The second restart is to slow the now reentered vehicle down enough so that it can hover over and then walk on water.

For boost back you really do not want to kill your vertical velocity.

Think about it.

If you zero out booth then you have to fly a ballistic trajectory back to the launch site.

If you only zero out the horizontal since you are still moving upward, you only have to build up enough horizontal speed to reach the launch site before you come back down into the atmosphere.

The second method requires less of a delta V.

As for the saying there is no boost back, that was from one of the many tweets about them walking on water down range for this launch. They have said it will be down range. With all the oil platforms, Vandenberg is a tougher location to do boost back too.

At this point today my mind is fried enough that I think I would have a better chance of finding two identical snowflakes than weeding through the trillions of unique posts to find it where SpaceX said that about the test. It's been a long day, pellet stove cleaned, new dishwasher installed, entertainment center relocated, spring planting done, now since you suggested it, seeing how many accounts I can create.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 03/31/2013 02:09 am
I know there is still three months till launch and this launch is filled with complexity with its many firsts... But is it appropriate to separate out the speculation about how the first stage may or may not come back (General Discussion)/(Party Thread) from actual hardware and reports (Updates)? Not sure if its too early for that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 03/31/2013 02:10 am
Has SpaceX said anything about the plan for the excess margin available for the US? The payload is what? Half a tonne? How high is the orbit and is there any excess margin? I guess that factors into the velocity at MECO and separation for this flight, doesn't it? They might have enough margin to attempt dropping the US into the atmosphere at survivable velocity. Just a thought.

I guess the US would be over land when it comes back around the first time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/31/2013 02:27 am
I guess the US would be over land when it comes back around the first time.

Shouldn't it be over the pacific and not California... The earth rotates towards the east.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 03/31/2013 09:30 am
How high is the orbit and is there any excess margin?

http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/quickfacts.html (http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/quickfacts.html)

There's lots of margin on this flight.

Quote
They might have enough margin to attempt dropping the US into the atmosphere at survivable velocity.

They could certainly drop it into the atmosphere but without a heat shield it wouldn't survive even if they burned all the remaining propellant.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/31/2013 10:35 am
Sigh. Everyone seems to be under te impression what the boost-back reentry speed will be, so therefore SpaceX will try to enter at that speed now.

But the crucial thing they are missing is that not even SpaceX knows what that will be yet - they are going to experiment and see what stresses the 1st stage can take. They are going to slowly get there by pushing margins.

This is why you cannot say that this flights booster will enter at boost-back velocity. It also depends on how lofted the ultimate boost-back trajectory will end up. 

There will be a slow down burn before reentry, so lofting of the boost back is irrelevant.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/31/2013 11:22 am
I was pointing out this is a simple test, any test requires two additional restarts.

The first restart to kill enough forward velocity to be able to survive reentry. You do not kill your vertical velocity component.

The second restart is to slow the now reentered vehicle down enough so that it can hover over and then walk on water.

For boost back you really do not want to kill your vertical velocity.

Agree re not wanting to kill the vertical component on the boost-back (per your reasons below).

However, I don't think that necessarily applies for the reentry slow-down burn. At it's simplest, you just want to slow down enough not to break up, and orient the stage end-on when it hits the atmosphere.

I also wonder whether that burn will take place before there's any sensible atmosphere, or early in the reentry itself?

If before, then the stage would need to orient horizontal for your burn, then again to direction-of-flight for reentry.

If after, then the stage would have to be side-on to the airflow to do a horizontal-only burn.



If the stage just orients to direction-of-flight and does it's burn, then it will also be orientated correctly for reentry. Since this is simpler and requires less manoeuvres, they might even do this for their initial tests, then get more creative with the actual recoveries on land.



OTOH, if you kill most or all of the forward component of motion, then the stage would just drop vertically through the atmosphere, and that might make for easier targeting of the landing zone.

OTGH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gripping_Hand#Notes_and_references), could the stage orient itself for a little lift and make use of the forward velocity to extend / reduce the severity of reentry heating?

cheers, Martin


If you zero out booth then you have to fly a ballistic trajectory back to the launch site.

If you only zero out the horizontal since you are still moving upward, you only have to build up enough horizontal speed to reach the launch site before you come back down into the atmosphere.

The second method requires less of a delta V.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FinalFrontier on 03/31/2013 11:39 am
The fairing bothers me. IMO that is going to be the thing to watch out for on this flight.

That and the schedule. The pressure is on now for them to start flying more rapidly. It needs to go sometime in the next 4 months or so.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/31/2013 12:48 pm
The fairing bothers me. IMO that is going to be the thing to watch out for on this flight.

Agree - successful insertion of the payload is many times more important than the post-staging recovery.


That and the schedule. The pressure is on now for them to start flying more rapidly.

Agree - critical.


It needs to go sometime in the next 4 months or so.

ISTM the exact date of the first 1.1 isn't particularly critical, but a quick ramp-up to high cadence is.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 03/31/2013 12:52 pm
Agree - successful insertion of the payload is many times more important than the post-staging recovery.

That's certainly not the impression one gets when looking at the general theme of this thread. Just one more proof that on this forum, it's all about the rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 03/31/2013 01:24 pm
Agree - successful insertion of the payload is many times more important than the post-staging recovery.

That's certainly not the impression one gets when looking at the general theme of this thread. Just one more proof that on this forum, it's all about the rocket.

It is the first v1.1 launch, and Elon did discuss the recovery attempt on this flight.

But, hard to argue your general point.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 03/31/2013 01:45 pm
Agree - successful insertion of the payload is many times more important than the post-staging recovery.

That's certainly not the impression one gets when looking at the general theme of this thread. Just one more proof that on this forum, it's all about the rocket.

It is the first v1.1 launch, and Elon did discuss the recovery attempt on this flight.

But, hard to argue your general point.

cheers, Martin

this site has been built around the Engineering of Rockets and Space Craft. Their developments, trials and tribulations. There are many who post here, perhaps a significant majority perhaps, who are either Engineers in Rocketry or who have Engineering backgrounds who have used their knowledge to gain a level of expertise in that field, to good purpose. For better or worse, politics and the missions became secondary, perhaps for good reason also. As those two have proven to be explosive subjects and lead much acrimony and to many locked threads.

Cheers

Gramps

Now this is OT, and we should return to our discussion of the Rocket and the Mission,   ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Clyde on 03/31/2013 03:13 pm
This might be known already

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2013/03/28/musk-spacex-to-attempt-falcon-9-first-stage-water-landing/

but it seems to answer some questions asked in this thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris-A on 03/31/2013 04:27 pm
Elon's twitter feed could be a good indication on how well the vacuum chamber testing goes. If a week or two goes by without anything, then it might be time to worry about the schedule.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 04/02/2013 12:59 pm
Elon's twitter feed could be a good indication on how well the vacuum chamber testing goes. If a week or two goes by without anything, then it might be time to worry about the schedule.
That might be true in a world without ITAR. But we're not living in such a world.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: pericynthion on 04/02/2013 05:21 pm
Elon's twitter feed could be a good indication on how well the vacuum chamber testing goes. If a week or two goes by without anything, then it might be time to worry about the schedule.
That might be true in a world without ITAR. But we're not living in such a world.

Bragging about a successful test is not prohibited by ITAR.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 04/02/2013 05:23 pm
Elon's twitter feed could be a good indication on how well the vacuum chamber testing goes. If a week or two goes by without anything, then it might be time to worry about the schedule.
That might be true in a world without ITAR. But we're not living in such a world.

Bragging about a successful test is not prohibited by ITAR.

It is if you include measurements with unit's like inches ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 04/02/2013 06:06 pm
Elon's twitter feed could be a good indication on how well the vacuum chamber testing goes. If a week or two goes by without anything, then it might be time to worry about the schedule.
That might be true in a world without ITAR. But we're not living in such a world.

Bragging about a successful test is not prohibited by ITAR.

It is if you include measurements with unit's like inches ;)

Since us doesn't understand millimetres, those should be safe!

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 04/03/2013 02:42 pm
Elon's twitter feed could be a good indication on how well the vacuum chamber testing goes. If a week or two goes by without anything, then it might be time to worry about the schedule.
That might be true in a world without ITAR. But we're not living in such a world.

Bragging about a successful test is not prohibited by ITAR.
Maybe I was pushing it with ITAR. What I should have tried to emphasize is that the delay it takes for Elon to tweet about something should not be used to worry about anything. There are a variety of other factors that could delay a billionaire CEO of two big corporations from tweeting about a fairing sep test.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deltaV on 04/07/2013 06:30 pm
I guess there are three options:-
1) start low, and ramp up the re-entry speed until they find a problem - either break-ups or in post-flight analysis.
2) start high, and ramp down the re-entry speed until one survives. [Edit: least likely, I think.]
3) target the expected re-entry speed and see how it copes, then adjust as required.

Binary search / bisection, which is similar to your #3, is much more efficient in terms of number of tests needed than #1 or #2.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 04/07/2013 06:36 pm
Does anyone know what the staging altitude and velocity will be? What they may be? Are we expecting it to flip end for end immediately on separation and do the retro-burn, or do we expect some other flight profile?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/07/2013 07:28 pm
Elon has previously said that for their reusability approach to work staging has to occur rather earlier than currently (IIRC Mach 6 rather than current Mach 10?). I believe this is to avoid the need for a heat shield on the first stage. May also be related to ease of reovery at the launch site?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 04/07/2013 08:57 pm
Does anyone know what the staging altitude and velocity will be? What they may be? Are we expecting it to flip end for end immediately on separation and do the retro-burn, or do we expect some other flight profile?

I think we're expecting first retro-burn just before entry interface, and then the stage free-falls at terminal velocity until a second burn just before hitting the water.

Doing the first burn immediately after staging would not accomplish much, since the stage will gain velocity as it falls and would need another burn before entry interface. It would, I guess, alter the ballistic trajectory to make the impact point closer to the launch site, but the downside is needing three restarts instead of two. For that reason, I imagine they'll try to keep it simple and go with two burns only.

There's also the factor of needing some finite amount of time after staging to reorient the stage for the retro burn. If they're using small cold gas thrusters to do a 180, more or less, it'll take some time to do that re-orientation.

 There's also the question of propellant settling before the first burn. Has anyone heard anything on that subject?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 04/07/2013 09:12 pm
At what altitude is the entry interface?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 04/07/2013 09:23 pm
At what altitude is the entry interface?

Was 400kft for Shuttle. Don't know if it's different for F9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nomadd on 04/07/2013 09:28 pm
 Speaking of propellant settling, how does that work anyhow? Would they wait till they encounter some drag to settle the propellant to the bottom of the tanks?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 04/07/2013 11:02 pm
At what altitude is the entry interface?

Was 400kft for Shuttle. Don't know if it's different for F9.

400kft is 122 km. I think it will be lower for the F9 because, when staging at mach 6, there is only enough kinetic energy to coast upward against gravity for an additional 30 to 35 km above the staging altitude. I don't know the staging altitude of the F9 but I think it is lower than 90 km. My atmospheric calculator table runs out at 86 km altitude, and the atmosphere is pretty thin that high up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 04/08/2013 03:18 am
Yes, entry interface is not the term to use in describing a recovering S1. Entry Interface has a specific meaning and seems to be defined as 400,000 feet altitude on the trajectory of vehicles passing from space to earth. SpaceX S1 and boosters don't reach that altitude so I can't use that term to describe any phase of their flight.

Re. Falcon 9 v1.1, the S1 does reach altitudes and speeds where total temperature and pressure are negligible, the apex of the trajectory for example. The term I seek is one to identify the altitude along the decending arc of the trajectory where total temperature and pressure can no longer be ignored. The S1 engines will need to slow the descent at or above that point. I'll name this the critical total pressure altitude as I believe it is total pressure and associated total temperature within the engine fairing that will frustrate re-use.

That is, unless aerodynamic drag slows the descent enough that temperature and pressure never become a problem. Drag will slow the stage to less than what the upward velocity was at equal altitudes, (excepting near the surface) but I think the SpaceX attempts to recover stages with parachutes shows that drag alone is not enough. So maybe the S1 engines need to run from just above the critical total pressure altitude until the stage slows to  terminal velocity at lower altitude where this terminal velocity does not result in exceeding the critical total pressure at the stagnation points within the engine environment. Such engine controls should be programmable I would hope.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Okie_Steve on 04/08/2013 05:52 am
As has been mentioned before up-thread, it's not the vertical velocity component that's the problem, it's the horizontal moving like a bat-out-of-hell part that will cause most of the trouble. Straight vertical drop should reach reasonably slow terminal velocity all by itself, just like Felix Baumgartner when he jumped out of the Red Bull capsule - without a rocket burn to slow him down.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/08/2013 06:05 am
As has been mentioned before up-thread, it's not the vertical velocity component that's the problem, it's the horizontal moving like a bat-out-of-hell part that will cause most of the trouble. Straight vertical drop should reach reasonably slow terminal velocity all by itself, just like Felix Baumgartner when he jumped out of the Red Bull capsule - without a rocket burn to slow him down.
It wouldn't be that different if you shot it at an angle or straight up. In fact, the one straight up would have significantly higher reentry forces (and, I believe, heat load).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Soralin on 04/08/2013 06:26 am
I guess there are three options:-
1) start low, and ramp up the re-entry speed until they find a problem - either break-ups or in post-flight analysis.
2) start high, and ramp down the re-entry speed until one survives. [Edit: least likely, I think.]
3) target the expected re-entry speed and see how it copes, then adjust as required.

Binary search / bisection, which is similar to your #3, is much more efficient in terms of number of tests needed than #1 or #2.
Or another (partial) option, or at least something to consider, that testing might depend on what fits the payload it's carrying.  Small payload, lots of margin - slow it down a lot.  Big payload, not much margin - I guess we're testing coming in fast this time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ArbitraryConstant on 04/09/2013 12:19 am
Speaking of propellant settling, how does that work anyhow? Would they wait till they encounter some drag to settle the propellant to the bottom of the tanks?
That's a very interesting thought. If they have cold gas for attitude control, they can avoid the destructive belly flop and use the atmosphere. Maybe even at the staging altitude for burn back.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 04/09/2013 01:37 am
At what altitude is the entry interface?

Was 400kft for Shuttle. Don't know if it's different for F9.

400kft is 122 km. I think it will be lower for the F9 because, when staging at mach 6, there is only enough kinetic energy to coast upward against gravity for an additional 30 to 35 km above the staging altitude. I don't know the staging altitude of the F9 but I think it is lower than 90 km. My atmospheric calculator table runs out at 86 km altitude, and the atmosphere is pretty thin that high up.

Just for comparison, Antares A-ONE ascent profile shows S2 coasting up to 189 km before ignition, so presumably S1 will coast up to an apogee in that neighborhood, well above entry interface...

But we know the deltaV split for F9 is more balanced, with less dV in S1 and more in S2, so F9 S1 apogee will obviously be lower.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 04/09/2013 09:08 pm
Well, well, well......

SFN now lists this flight (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/tracking/index.html) at July 9 at 9-11 am PDT (16:00-18:00 GMT). Surely not three F9's in July!? (or heck five F9-1.1 between July and November?)

Edit: Thaicom 6 launch date now listed in August, so at most only 2 F9s in July. (but the second possibility still stands!)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 04/10/2013 12:49 am
Quote from: Robotbeat link=topic=31429.msg1036088#msg1036088 date=1365401150
[/quote
It wouldn't be that different if you shot it at an angle or straight up. In fact, the one straight up would have significantly higher reentry forces (and, I believe, heat load).

It might have a higher peak heat flux but the total heat load would likely be greater for a flatter entry trajectory due to the longer time spent traveling through thicker atmosphere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 04/10/2013 12:56 am
Well, well, well......

SFN now lists this flight (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/tracking/index.html) at July 9 at 9-11 am PDT (16:00-18:00 GMT). Surely not three F9's in July!? (or heck five F9-1.1 between July and November?)

Edit: Thaicom 6 launch date now listed in August, so at most only 2 F9s in July. (but the second possibility still stands!)

Hmm unfortunate, but its only a half-month slip. Things still look more or less on schedule. Do we have a more direct source than SFN? I'd be curious where they learned of it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 04/10/2013 12:59 am
I will be watching July pretty closely because of they can turnaround CASSIOPE and then SES 8 in three weeks then August for Thaicom and September/October for Orbcomm is believable.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/10/2013 01:31 am
Quote from: Robotbeat link=topic=31429.msg1036088#msg1036088 date=1365401150
[/quote
It wouldn't be that different if you shot it at an angle or straight up. In fact, the one straight up would have significantly higher reentry forces (and, I believe, heat load).

It might have a higher peak heat flux but the total heat load would likely be greater for a flatter entry trajectory due to the longer time spent traveling through thicker atmosphere.
I don't see why it'd be higher, except perhaps if you're including the initial ascent (pre-staging).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/10/2013 01:49 am
Well, well, well......

SFN now lists this flight (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/tracking/index.html) at July 9 at 9-11 am PDT (16:00-18:00 GMT). Surely not three F9's in July!? (or heck five F9-1.1 between July and November?)

Edit: Thaicom 6 launch date now listed in August, so at most only 2 F9s in July. (but the second possibility still stands!)
Now that's more realistic (except the two in one month part).

We shall see once they get the first stage acceptance tested. If they can get it acceptance tested by the end of May, they have a shot at getting the first launch off by the end of July.

I like SpaceX, but I still think my 3 launch estimate for 2013 isn't pessimistic... I now think they might POSSIBLY get 4, by I would be incredibly skeptical unless they actually do launch successfully by July.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 04/10/2013 02:22 am
I will be watching July pretty closely because of they can turnaround CASSIOPE and then SES 8 in three weeks then August for Thaicom and September/October for Orbcomm is believable.

Since they are different pads, I'll give you SES8, but three weeks I suspect is pushing it. I also question less than four weeks from the same pad. SES8,Thaicom,Orbcomm. That said, they still have a chance of all four by the end of October. But I fear I have more of a chance of Jim saying this over optimistic, than all four v1.1 flying by the close of October. But I would like an October surprise.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deltaV on 04/10/2013 02:58 am
It might have a higher peak heat flux but the total heat load would likely be greater for a flatter entry trajectory due to the longer time spent traveling through thicker atmosphere.
I don't see why it'd be higher, except perhaps if you're including the initial ascent (pre-staging).

IANARS but this is how I understand it. Most of the orbital energy (which is a substantial fraction of the energy in the propellant used to launch it) heats the atmosphere rather than the vehicle itself, so conservation of energy is insufficient to determine how heat loads vary (or not). A while ago someone on these forums introduced me to an empirical formula for reentry heat loads, the name of which I've unfortunately forgotten. IIRC that formula gave the heat rate as proportional to the square-root of (the dynamic pressure divided by the radius of curvature), times the airspeed to some small power (1.6 or something like that). Drag is (approximately) proportional to dynamic pressure, so time spent decelerating (from reentry speed to zero assuming dynamic pressure is steady) is inversely proportional to dynamic pressure. Therefore the total heat load is inversely proportional to the square-root of dynamic pressure, i.e. a higher acceleration reentry has higher peak heat rates but lower total heat load (i.e. integral of heat rate). This argument has a lot of unjustified approximations, but the qualitative conclusion is apparently valid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_entry#Entry_vehicle_design_considerations .

Edit: this is getting off-topic.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/10/2013 03:05 am
It might have a higher peak heat flux but the total heat load would likely be greater for a flatter entry trajectory due to the longer time spent traveling through thicker atmosphere.
I don't see why it'd be higher, except perhaps if you're including the initial ascent (pre-staging).

IANARS but this is how I understand it. Most of the orbital energy (which is a substantial fraction of the energy in the propellant used to launch it) heats the atmosphere rather than the vehicle itself, so conservation of energy is insufficient to determine how heat loads vary (or not). A while ago someone on these forums introduced me to an empirical formula for reentry heat loads, the name of which I've unfortunately forgotten. IIRC that formula gave the heat rate as proportional to the square-root of (the dynamic pressure divided by the radius of curvature), times the airspeed to some small power (1.6 or something like that). Drag is (approximately) proportional to dynamic pressure, so time spent decelerating (from reentry speed to zero assuming dynamic pressure is steady) is inversely proportional to dynamic pressure. Therefore the total heat load is inversely proportional to the square-root of dynamic pressure, i.e. a higher acceleration reentry has higher peak heat rates but lower total heat load (i.e. integral of heat rate). This argument has a lot of unjustified approximations, but the qualitative conclusion is apparently valid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_entry#Entry_vehicle_design_considerations .

I will grant that conservation of energy is insufficient by itself, here. I'm just not entirely convinced that the total heat flux will be higher in the specific case of taking longer to reenter...

I will acknowledge that for ablative heat shields at VERY high reentry speeds that it's better to go hot-and-quick, but I'm not entirely convinced this can be generalized to lower speeds, since ablative materials are pretty darned non-linear... I've studied these equations as well... this is a difficult question that may very well depend on some of the simplifying assumptions we make...

On the flip side, I don't have a solid case to make that the heat load will be lower for flatter reentry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/10/2013 03:09 am
I can see flying less than once per month on the same pad, but it'd take more practice than SpaceX will have by the end of this year for darned sure.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: padrat on 04/10/2013 11:29 am
A lot of it depends on what state the hardware is in when we get it. The next couple are quite complete based on our guys that have seen them. The question will be if Hawthorne can maintain that level of finish past the next couple rockets...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: subzero788 on 04/10/2013 12:14 pm
I've been out of the loop for a while-- what's the status of the Vandenberg pad? Is it ready to go and it's the launch vehicle acceptance testing that they're waiting on?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: simonbp on 04/24/2013 06:41 pm
That sounds right. Last I saw, the vehicle is in Texas on the test stand. Once that's done, they'll truck it back to California.

Of course, many things can crop up after arriving at the launch pad...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 04/25/2013 07:52 pm
That sounds right. Last I saw, the vehicle is in Texas on the test stand. Once that's done, they'll truck it back to California.

Of course, many things can crop up after arriving at the launch pad...

Jim stated that the delay from June to July for the launch was because of launch site construction delays.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClaytonBirchenough on 05/02/2013 12:43 am
http://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/spacex-moving-quickly-towards-fly-back-first-stage.html

snip
Quote
During the NASA/SpaceX teleconference on the CRS-2 mission, Elon Musk confirmed the rumors that they will do a propulsive return test on the upcoming flight of the new Falcon V1.1. He expanded on this to say they will continue doing such tests until they can do a return to the launch site and a powered landing.

For the upcoming flight, after stage separation the first stage booster will do a burn to slow it down and then a second burn just before it reaches the water.

In subsequent flights they will continue these over-water tests. He repeatedly emphasized that he expects several failures before they learn how to do it right.

If all goes well with the over-water tests, they will fly back to launch site and land propulsively. He expects this could happen by mid-2014. Since they don't know how many tests they will need, they don't know exactly which flight this would be.

This is a very accelerated schedule from what most people expected. If they succeed at flying back and landing the first stage, that would be a real revolution in space transport.

Does anyone know to what extent the powered descent for this flight would be? Also, should propulsive descent be added to the list of new "hardware"?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 05/02/2013 04:41 am
http://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/spacex-moving-quickly-towards-fly-back-first-stage.html

snip
Quote
During the NASA/SpaceX teleconference on the CRS-2 mission, Elon Musk confirmed the rumors that they will do a propulsive return test on the upcoming flight of the new Falcon V1.1. He expanded on this to say they will continue doing such tests until they can do a return to the launch site and a powered landing.

For the upcoming flight, after stage separation the first stage booster will do a burn to slow it down and then a second burn just before it reaches the water.

In subsequent flights they will continue these over-water tests. He repeatedly emphasized that he expects several failures before they learn how to do it right.

If all goes well with the over-water tests, they will fly back to launch site and land propulsively. He expects this could happen by mid-2014. Since they don't know how many tests they will need, they don't know exactly which flight this would be.

This is a very accelerated schedule from what most people expected. If they succeed at flying back and landing the first stage, that would be a real revolution in space transport.

Does anyone know to what extent the powered descent for this flight would be? Also, should propulsive descent be added to the list of new "hardware"?

The consensus on this forum (based on what we have heard) is that they will attempt do two engine restarts - one to reduce velocity before atmospheric entry to prevent breakup, and a final burn shortly before impact to reduce velocity to 0 just above the water. A simulated landing on water without any legs.

Plans may change. And they may not get that far on the first attempt. But that appears to be the goal.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 05/02/2013 05:52 am

Does anyone know to what extent the powered descent for this flight would be? Also, should propulsive descent be added to the list of new "hardware"?

As I understand it, new hardware related to reusability is the cold gas thrusters for attitude control and the avionics placed on the first stage. Legs will need to be attached later when the first attempt of fly back and land landing will be made.

Edit: Plus the restart ability to some of the first stage engines.

A lot of other hardware changes are related to the general upgrade to 1.1.

Did I miss anything major?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClaytonBirchenough on 05/02/2013 08:37 pm
http://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/spacex-moving-quickly-towards-fly-back-first-stage.html

snip
Quote
During the NASA/SpaceX teleconference on the CRS-2 mission, Elon Musk confirmed the rumors that they will do a propulsive return test on the upcoming flight of the new Falcon V1.1. He expanded on this to say they will continue doing such tests until they can do a return to the launch site and a powered landing.

For the upcoming flight, after stage separation the first stage booster will do a burn to slow it down and then a second burn just before it reaches the water.

In subsequent flights they will continue these over-water tests. He repeatedly emphasized that he expects several failures before they learn how to do it right.

If all goes well with the over-water tests, they will fly back to launch site and land propulsively. He expects this could happen by mid-2014. Since they don't know how many tests they will need, they don't know exactly which flight this would be.

This is a very accelerated schedule from what most people expected. If they succeed at flying back and landing the first stage, that would be a real revolution in space transport.

Does anyone know to what extent the powered descent for this flight would be? Also, should propulsive descent be added to the list of new "hardware"?

The consensus on this forum (based on what we have heard) is that they will attempt do two engine restarts - one to reduce velocity before atmospheric entry to prevent breakup, and a final burn shortly before impact to reduce velocity to 0 just above the water. A simulated landing on water without any legs.

Plans may change. And they may not get that far on the first attempt. But that appears to be the goal.

Any idea what the mass penalty in fuel is?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/02/2013 10:28 pm
Is there going to be  a landing attempt for this particular mission?

 ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/03/2013 04:37 am
Is there going to be  a landing attempt for this particular mission?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

Yes, on the ocean... been reported numerous places.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/03/2013 05:06 am
Is there going to be  a landing attempt for this particular mission?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

Yes, on the ocean... been reported numerous places.

I went back through the whole thread and could not find a definitive answer to my question.

Elon has stated that there will be re-entry tests, but didn't state that this mission would feature a test.

There was a reported rumor that there would be a test during this mission, but no confirmation.

Then, there was a lot of speculation about the nature of the test, but no confirming information.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 05/03/2013 05:17 am
Is there going to be  a landing attempt for this particular mission?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

Yes, on the ocean... been reported numerous places.

I went back through the whole thread and could not find a definitive answer to my question.

Elon has stated that there will be re-entry tests, but didn't state that this mission would feature a test.

There was a reported rumor that there would be a test during this mission, but no confirmation.

Then, there was a lot of speculation about the nature of the test, but no confirming information.


http://shitelonsays.com/transcript/crs-2-post-landing-teleconference-2013-03-27
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/03/2013 05:31 am
Is there going to be  a landing attempt for this particular mission?

 ??? ??? ??? ???

Yes, on the ocean... been reported numerous places.

I went back through the whole thread and could not find a definitive answer to my question.

Elon has stated that there will be re-entry tests, but didn't state that this mission would feature a test.

There was a reported rumor that there would be a test during this mission, but no confirmation.

Then, there was a lot of speculation about the nature of the test, but no confirming information.


http://shitelonsays.com/transcript/crs-2-post-landing-teleconference-2013-03-27

Reading the transcript, there is nothing that states that the Falcon 9 will be recovered during this flight (or that some recovery procedures would be tested); in fact, Elon only refers to CRS-3 in this context.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 05/03/2013 07:08 am
Reading the transcript, there is nothing that states that the Falcon 9 will be recovered during this flight (or that some recovery procedures would be tested); in fact, Elon only refers to CRS-3 in this context.

You're right, it's not abundantly clear when they're going to do the first ocean landing attempt.. except that Elon says they're trying for multiple attempts this year.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Spugpow on 05/03/2013 07:09 am
Someone had an inside source, but I don't remember the specifics.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: notsorandom on 05/03/2013 12:46 pm
There has been speculation about if they could recover the first stage and if they are planning to. I have not heard any definitive answer on if that is their goal. However it does appear clear from the various sources that SpaceX will be attempting to slow the rocket down, reenter it, and simulate the landing burn above the ocean. Which makes sense if you think of these types of tests as expanding the envelope from the sky down and Grasshopper expanding the envelope from the ground up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 05/03/2013 02:39 pm
Anybody have any info on CASSIOPE?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/03/2013 02:46 pm
Someone had an inside source, but I don't remember the specifics.

To be clear, there was a post that suggested that there was a rumor that maybe SpaceX would try some recovery procedures during the Cassiope flight, but zero confirmation.

Note that I am not saying that there won't be a test during this flight, only that there is no data from SpaceX indicating there will be.

For now, all we have is a rumor.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 05/03/2013 03:03 pm
Someone had an inside source, but I don't remember the specifics.

To be clear, there was a post that suggested that there was a rumor that maybe SpaceX would try some recovery procedures during the Cassiope flight, but zero confirmation.

Note that I am not saying that there won't be a test during this flight, only that there is no data from SpaceX indicating there will be.

For now, all we have is a rumor.

Jim confirmed the first ver. 1.1 would be some return tests.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 05/03/2013 03:46 pm
Anybody have any info on CASSIOPE?

See QG's post:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1030137#msg1030137 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1030137#msg1030137)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 05/03/2013 07:54 pm
Someone had an inside source, but I don't remember the specifics.

To be clear, there was a post that suggested that there was a rumor that maybe SpaceX would try some recovery procedures during the Cassiope flight, but zero confirmation.

Note that I am not saying that there won't be a test during this flight, only that there is no data from SpaceX indicating there will be.

For now, all we have is a rumor.

not rumor
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: rcoppola on 05/03/2013 08:48 pm
Someone had an inside source, but I don't remember the specifics.

To be clear, there was a post that suggested that there was a rumor that maybe SpaceX would try some recovery procedures during the Cassiope flight, but zero confirmation.

Note that I am not saying that there won't be a test during this flight, only that there is no data from SpaceX indicating there will be.

For now, all we have is a rumor.

not rumor
Jim, I've been wondering how you think they plan to integrate the boost back avionics. Obviously isolated to the 1st stage, but do you think Boost Back Avionics is monitoring at all times from launch or triggered on Second Stage Sep? Or a combination thereof?

Also, from inside the control room. Do you think they will assign a few people to monitor just boost back events, as while that is occurring, there will be other events happening, 2nd stage burn, Fairing Sep, Sat Sep etc...

Just curious how this will be organized, executed and monitored.

Thanks
Rich

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClaytonBirchenough on 05/03/2013 10:45 pm
Any chance we will get video footage of the attempted landing over water?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 05/03/2013 11:38 pm
Someone had an inside source, but I don't remember the specifics.

To be clear, there was a post that suggested that there was a rumor that maybe SpaceX would try some recovery procedures during the Cassiope flight, but zero confirmation.

Note that I am not saying that there won't be a test during this flight, only that there is no data from SpaceX indicating there will be.

For now, all we have is a rumor.

not rumor

Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 05/03/2013 11:55 pm

Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.


I didn't get the impression that they were going to recover the stage from Jim. He just said they would attempt the burns needed for flyback and attempt to bring it to a water landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 05/04/2013 12:02 am

Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.


I didn't get the impression that they were going to recover the stage from Jim. He just said they would attempt the burns needed for flyback and attempt to bring it to a water landing.

Yes, that's all I meant by "recovery". There's no explicit public SpaceX statements that this will be attempted on this flight. If Jim can provide something for us, that'd be great.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClaytonBirchenough on 05/04/2013 12:19 am

Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.


I didn't get the impression that they were going to recover the stage from Jim. He just said they would attempt the burns needed for flyback and attempt to bring it to a water landing.

Yes, that's all I meant by "recovery". There's no explicit public SpaceX statements that this will be attempted on this flight. If Jim can provide something for us, that'd be great.



Like I stated above, Musk said they would do a propulsive landing over water in the NASA/Spacex Teleconference on the CRS-2 mission.

Quote
{snip}
During the NASA/SpaceX teleconference on the CRS-2 mission, Elon Musk confirmed the rumors that they will do a propulsive return test on the upcoming flight of the new Falcon V1.1. He expanded on this to say they will continue doing such tests until they can do a return to the launch site and a powered landing.

For the upcoming flight, after stage separation the first stage booster will do a burn to slow it down and then a second burn just before it reaches the water.

In subsequent flights they will continue these over-water tests. He repeatedly emphasized that he expects several failures before they learn how to do it right.

If all goes well with the over-water tests, they will fly back to launch site and land propulsively. He expects this could happen by mid-2014. Since they don't know how many tests they will need, they don't know exactly which flight this would be.

This is a very accelerated schedule from what most people expected. If they succeed at flying back and landing the first stage, that would be a real revolution in space transport.

From: http://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/spacex-moving-quickly-towards-fly-back-first-stage.html (http://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/spacex-moving-quickly-towards-fly-back-first-stage.html)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 05/04/2013 12:22 am

Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.


I didn't get the impression that they were going to recover the stage from Jim. He just said they would attempt the burns needed for flyback and attempt to bring it to a water landing.

My impression as well
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 05/04/2013 12:26 am
Like I stated above, Musk said they would do a propulsive landing over water in the NASA/Spacex Teleconference on the CRS-2 mission.

Quote from: Clark Lindsey
During the NASA/SpaceX teleconference on the CRS-2 mission, Elon Musk confirmed the rumors that they will do a propulsive return test on the upcoming flight of the new Falcon V1.1.

With all due respect to Clark, Elon didn't say which upcoming Falcon v1.1 flight.. he just said:

Quote from: Elon
So, this year is about just recovering - hopefully recovering - the first stage, at all, from an ocean landing and then next year it'll be the boost-back, return to launch site, with the landing gear deployed. That's our aspiration.

and that there will be "several attempts" at the ocean landing.

As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 05/04/2013 12:30 am
cutting hairs.  Relight and water landing is "recovery procedures"
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClaytonBirchenough on 05/04/2013 12:31 am
Hmmmm... Well this is infuriating... ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 05/04/2013 01:03 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClaytonBirchenough on 05/04/2013 01:08 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.

Any idea where?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 05/04/2013 01:20 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.

Any idea where?

I am pretty sure it was in the post CRS2 Teleconference even if it did not make it into the transcript. But I am not going to listen through it again. ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dcporter on 05/04/2013 02:13 pm
While guckyfan is taking one for the team, I'd like to apologize on behalf of the conspiring universe to all fans of CASSIOPIA herself for making the presently most exciting SpaceX topic legitimately, albeit tangentially, related to this mission. ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/04/2013 02:35 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.

Nope. I read the transcript.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 05/04/2013 05:51 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.

Nope. I read the transcript.
I'm in the "wasn't stated but depending on your read, more or less heavily implied" camp. And we bois have happily jumped to the most optimistic conclusion.

Likely? I'd like to think so. Certain? no.

PS dcporter "owes me a new keyboard" :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/04/2013 05:59 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.

Nope. I read the transcript.
I'm in the "wasn't stated but depending on your read, more or less heavily implied" camp. And we bois have happily jumped to the most optimistic conclusion.

Likely? I'd like to think so. Certain? no.

It would be unusual if Elon were to decide to burden the team developing the 1.1 variant with additional testing requirements for its first launch. If there were a failure during ascent, the team could never be 100% sure that the root cause were not the modifications required for landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 05/04/2013 06:45 pm
Likely? I'd like to think so. Certain? no.

It would be unusual if Elon were to decide to burden the team developing the 1.1 variant with additional testing requirements for its first launch. If there were a failure during ascent, the team could never be 100% sure that the root cause were not the modifications required for landing.

Yes. BUT if we assume that F9R == F9 v1.1 then the leg related things (on ascent) are not "additional" requirements, leaving them out means testing the "wrong vehicle"

On the third hand, incremental... they can be incremented in later (at the risk of Jim pointing out that it's now a new vehicle again... :) )

Also, this:

I'm going to argue that they should put a full set of legs on 1.1 as soon as possible, certainly before they try a fake landing on water.  They will affect the terminal velocity, center of gravity, aerodynamics, moments of inertia, heating, and other effects.  This is stuff you need to know, almost to the point of a test without legs being worth little except perhaps testing re-light.

Also, remember the Mars probe that died on impact, due to an unanticipated problem with legs extending (it hit the contact switch, the craft thought it had weight on the legs, and shut off the engines a few hundred meters up).

So test as you fly, and fly as you test.  Put full scale legs on from the beginning - don't wait for GH2 results.

exactly!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 05/04/2013 07:18 pm
It would be unusual if Elon were to decide to burden the team developing the 1.1 variant with additional testing requirements for its first launch. If there were a failure during ascent, the team could never be 100% sure that the root cause were not the modifications required for landing.
C'mon. Of course he would. That's what makes SpaceX so different from other manufacturers and also why so many criticize (probably justifiably) how it's run. He required all previous designs to be "human rated" even though they had no need to be and he requires all current designs to be "Mars compatible" even though the current iterations will probably never go to Mars.

And engineers are good at finding root causes. Try not to insult their intelligence by suggesting that they could never differentiate the addition of the reusable landing mods from the rest of the rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 05/04/2013 07:37 pm
As I said, there's no explicit statement that the CASSIOPE flight will be the flight they attempt an ocean landing with. I expect it will be, but I'd prefer an explicit statement if possible.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated.

Nope. I read the transcript.

From the CRS-2 Post Landing Teleconference, regarding the upcoming CRS-3 flight:
Quote
"This is also the version of Falcon 9 where we will attempt to recover the first stage..."
"Although, as I've said before, I think it's going to take us several flights before we are successful in that. I'm not sure it'll be this flight where we are successful, but that is our aspiration and that is one of the key design goals of the new version of Falcon 9"
Note that I highlighted the word "this", which was referring to CRS-3.
This would seem to imply that it'll be the CRS-3 flight where ocean landing will be first tested. Maybe the above quote is what got folks thinking it would be the next F9 launch?
Of course, Jim has said that it's certain that the CASSIOPE launch will attempt a first stage relight and that the information is public (or at least not a rumor), so maybe there is another explicit statement out there somewhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jcc on 05/04/2013 08:01 pm
F9 v1.1 is the version that will attempt recovery, Elon said he didn't know if the this flight (CRS-3) will be the one to succeed, but it will take several attempts to succeed. So, since CASSIOPE with use v1.1, they can attempt recovery, but will probably not succeed, but hopefully on a later attempt they will (ambitiously, perhaps CRS-3??). Not likely, it will take several attempts.

Of course, he is not saying one way or the other, and probably doesn't know for sure if they will attempt a water landing in July or not. But they might.

Will their Dragon recovery ship hold a first stage? It is conveniently located on the West Coast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 05/04/2013 09:12 pm

...Will their Dragon recovery ship hold a first stage? It is conveniently located on the West Coast.

Compare the American Islander with the size of the Dragon in this picture.
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=31458.0;attach=505093;image)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 05/04/2013 09:24 pm
It would be unusual if Elon were to decide to burden the team developing the 1.1 variant with additional testing requirements for its first launch. If there were a failure during ascent, the team could never be 100% sure that the root cause were not the modifications required for landing.
C'mon. Of course he would. That's what makes SpaceX so different from other manufacturers and also why so many criticize (probably justifiably) how it's run...

We've forgotten the most important party here, the customer. Testing engine re-light after staging introduces marginal extra danger to the payload. I assume that the owners of CASSIOPE have agreed to that. Attaching legs as well, which could conceivably deploy during ascent and cause LOM is a different matter. Unless SpaceX has the agreement of the customer to fly legs which have never been tested on this first flight, then it won't happen. It makes much more sense to test the legs on GH2 before flying them on F9R.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: friendly3 on 05/04/2013 10:27 pm
I'm wondering : if they successfully make several water landing why would they need to develop Grasshopper 2? Just to test the deployment of the legs?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/04/2013 10:45 pm
I'm wondering : if they successfully make several water landing why would they need to develop Grasshopper 2? Just to test the deployment of the legs?

They also need to test how - if at all - the legs affect the ascent, beyond the extra weight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 05/05/2013 09:11 am
Also GH2 should be able to fly more often than commercial F9's and push the envelope if needed, without endangering anyone's expensive payload. That's what it's for. Once the legs and other systems have been tested to the satisfaction of SpaceX and its customers, they can be flown on commercial F9R's.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: newpylong on 05/07/2013 05:38 pm
What makes you think they would make a public statement?



Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/07/2013 05:51 pm
What makes you think they would make a public statement?



Jim, if you could get us something (other than your say so) to verify that SpaceX are going to attempt recovery of the first stage on this flight, that'd be great. So far there's no explicit public statements to that effect from SpaceX, but it's certainly the impression I got.


No one really expects that SpaceX has made a public statement about testing recovery during the first mission of V1.1. There is a rumor, but that is about all we have.

It is entirely possible that SpaceX would attempt to, for example, relight one of the 9 first stage Merlin engines after separation of the second stage, and that would be the test, conducted after the customer is safely away. We would then hear about it after the fact.

I would love to see results from a web cam inside the first stage, to see how the stage "flies" after separation.

Are there Vandenberg downrange receiving stations that could capture signal from the first stage after separation?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 05/07/2013 09:03 pm
No one really expects that SpaceX has made a public statement about testing recovery during the first mission of V1.1. There is a rumor, but that is about all we have.

That's not the case at all.. everyone who heard the press conference thought Elon made the explicit statement that a relight over the ocean will be attempted on the first launch of v1.1 (this CASSIOPE launch). After careful reading, he didn't make an explicit statement, but most of us still think they will and Jim has confirmed that he's privy to information that confirms this.

Quote
It is entirely possible that SpaceX would attempt to, for example, relight one of the 9 first stage Merlin engines after separation of the second stage, and that would be the test, conducted after the customer is safely away. We would then hear about it after the fact.

That's all we're talking about here, what do you think we're talking about?

If they get anything more than interesting data before the stage breaks apart, I think they'll be pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 05/09/2013 03:27 pm
Did they perform the first stage test this week as planned? It's starting to look like SpaceX will miss their July 9th target date. They seem to be falling farther behind schedule. My opinion: Too much focus on reuse and not enough focus on customers. SpaceX needs to remember who is paying their bills.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dcporter on 05/09/2013 03:39 pm
They seem to be falling farther behind schedule.

Nobody's ever done that before. My opinion: space is hard.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 05/09/2013 04:37 pm
They seem to be falling farther behind schedule.

Nobody's ever done that before. My opinion: space is hard.
I see no evidence for a slip or an on time launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 05/09/2013 04:59 pm
Did they perform the first stage test this week as planned? It's starting to look like SpaceX will miss their July 9th target date. They seem to be falling farther behind schedule. My opinion: Too much focus on reuse and not enough focus on customers. SpaceX needs to remember who is paying their bills.

A 10-second test was planned for yesterday (Weds) according to SpaceX (see the McGregor testing thread).

edit: corrected date
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: bunker9603 on 05/10/2013 12:40 am
Did they perform the first stage test this week as planned? It's starting to look like SpaceX will miss their July 9th target date. They seem to be falling farther behind schedule. My opinion: Too much focus on reuse and not enough focus on customers. SpaceX needs to remember who is paying their bills.

I thought the 10 second test was scheduled for yesterday or today, I have no idea if it did or didn't happen, but how do you draw the conclusion that they are falling farther behind based on that one minor detail? Even if the test happens next week I think they will still be ok.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 05/10/2013 02:33 am
2 more months till liftoff! Maybe.... :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danderman on 05/10/2013 02:50 am
Did they perform the first stage test this week as planned? It's starting to look like SpaceX will miss their July 9th target date. They seem to be falling farther behind schedule. My opinion: Too much focus on reuse and not enough focus on customers. SpaceX needs to remember who is paying their bills.

SpaceX seems to know what they are doing.

Schedule slips are routine in aerospace.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: McDew on 05/11/2013 02:04 pm
FWIW I heard the launch was delayed to NET July 20.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 05/17/2013 03:05 pm
Will CASSIOPE use the big fairing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Skyrocket on 05/17/2013 03:10 pm
Will CASSIOPE use the big fairing?

There is no other type of fairing
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 05/18/2013 04:18 pm
I've been searching for a couple hours now & can find no reference to a delay from July 9th except for this thread.
Where does the July 20 date come from?
Vandenberg AFB Launch Schedule (http://www.spacearchive.info/vafbsked.htm)
As noted in the above link, the page was updated on 5/13/2013.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nate_Trost on 05/18/2013 11:32 pm
You get industry scuttlebutt in these threads. Although considering that the first stage at least, is still sitting in Texas, I'd be more a little skeptical of July 20 at this point.

Things/milestones we are still waiting to hear about in this thread:

* Stage testing completed in TX
* Stage shipped from TX, arrives at VAFB
* First time stage integration at new facility
* First ever WDR of 1.1 and of the SLC-4E pad
* First time SpaceX integrates a satellite payload on a F9
* First time SpaceX has dealt with the F9 fairing as part of integration/launch prep
* Pad static-fire?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 05/19/2013 02:14 am
You get industry scuttlebutt in these threads. Although considering that the first stage at least, is still sitting in Texas, I'd be more a little skeptical of July 20 at this point.

Things/milestones we are still waiting to hear about in this thread:

* Stage testing completed in TX
* Stage shipped from TX, arrives at VAFB
* First time stage integration at new facility
* First ever WDR of 1.1 and of the SLC-4E pad
* First time SpaceX integrates a satellite payload on a F9
* First time SpaceX has dealt with the F9 fairing as part of integration/launch prep
* Pad static-fire?



Don't forgot the pad being complete
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/20/2013 07:40 pm
Who says the pad isn't complete? A lot of the v1.1 pad work they were doing even before the last v1.0 rocket launched.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: TrueBlueWitt on 05/20/2013 07:52 pm
Who says the pad isn't complete? A lot of the v1.1 pad work they were doing even before the last v1.0 rocket launched.

At Vandenberg?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/20/2013 08:12 pm
Who says the pad isn't complete? A lot of the v1.1 pad work they were doing even before the last v1.0 rocket launched.

At Vandenberg?
Ah, yes, you're right *looks-sheepishly-at-thread-title*. But still, how do we know the pad isn't ready, um, already? (Honest question)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 05/22/2013 05:28 pm
Because SpaceX would have crowed about it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 05/22/2013 05:36 pm
Because SpaceX would have crowed about it?

SpaceX held off on "crowing" about things often before.  How often have people in this forum known things months before the press release?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/25/2013 02:10 pm
We're going with To Be Determined on all SpaceX Falcon 9 launches for this year at least, because that's what the internal range information on L2 is going with.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 05/25/2013 02:29 pm
We're going with To Be Determined on all SpaceX Falcon 9 launches for this year at least, because that's what the internal range information on L2 is going with.

Chris better turn your troll filters on. :o
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 05/25/2013 02:58 pm
We're going with To Be Determined on all SpaceX Falcon 9 launches for this year at least, because that's what the internal range information on L2 is going with.
This should not be a surprise.  New rocket.  New launch pads. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deltaV on 05/25/2013 05:02 pm
We're going with To Be Determined on all SpaceX Falcon 9 launches for this year at least, because that's what the internal range information on L2 is going with.
Ow. It sounds like Elon may be directing too much resources to achieving his dreams of e.g. reusability and not enough to achieving his customers' dream of payloads in orbit in a timely fashion. Maybe Gwynne should remind him that his customers will only pay him to achieve his dreams if he helps them achieve theirs too.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 05/25/2013 05:19 pm
It sounds like Elon may be directing too much resources to achieving his dreams of e.g. reusability and not enough to achieving his customers' dream of payloads in orbit in a timely fashion.

Where exactly does it say these delays are due to pushing reusability as opposed to actually making the "basic" launch vehicle work at all?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/26/2013 02:26 am
It sounds like Elon may be directing too much resources to achieving his dreams of e.g. reusability and not enough to achieving his customers' dream of payloads in orbit in a timely fashion.

Where exactly does it say these delays are due to pushing reusability as opposed to actually making the "basic" launch vehicle work at all?

That is a contributing factor.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Orbiter on 05/26/2013 02:35 am
Don't be surprised if SES-8 gets off the ground first. Like the above stated, it is a new rocket going off on a new pad. Think the delays Antares and the F9 faced.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deltaV on 05/26/2013 04:46 am
It sounds like Elon may be directing too much resources to achieving his dreams of e.g. reusability and not enough to achieving his customers' dream of payloads in orbit in a timely fashion.

Where exactly does it say these delays are due to pushing reusability as opposed to actually making the "basic" launch vehicle work at all?

I don't think Falcon v1.1 is delayed waiting for the landing legs or something like that. What I'm concerned about is a more indirect effect: the reusability issues using precious resources (e.g. Elon's attention) that are needed to execute the expendable missions in a timely manner.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kiba on 05/26/2013 05:17 am
Don't be surprised if SES-8 gets off the ground first. Like the above stated, it is a new rocket going off on a new pad. Think the delays Antares and the F9 faced.

Huh? The SES-8 mission got delayed to August.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: spectre9 on 05/26/2013 05:51 am
Haven't SES said "we're not going first"?  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 05/26/2013 10:43 am
Haven't SES said "we're not going first"?  ???

Correct.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Orbiter on 05/27/2013 03:26 pm
Don't be surprised if SES-8 gets off the ground first. Like the above stated, it is a new rocket going off on a new pad. Think the delays Antares and the F9 faced.

Huh? The SES-8 mission got delayed to August.

I'm aware of that.

Haven't SES said "we're not going first"?  ???

Was not aware of that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 05/28/2013 07:59 am
Haven't SES said "we're not going first"?  ???

Correct.

That's what I remember hearing as well. Forget where though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AnjaZoe on 05/28/2013 12:20 pm
If SES works halfway consistent with their big and their smaller satellites, this would definitely be their policy.

Never use unqualified hardware, be it spacecraft or launcher.

Their track record proves them right.

Zoe
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 05/30/2013 12:19 am
http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/new-word-on-spacex-testing/article_cf049a90-c8a4-11e2-834d-001a4bcf887a.html

Quote from: Christina Ra


    We’ve switched gears a bit here.  SpaceX is planning to run a test at our rocket development facility in McGregor that will be much louder than the typical tests we run daily, and this test could run from 30-seconds in duration to up to several minutes.  This test could occur as early as Friday, May 31st.   Given that the test could run for several minutes, it’s important that the community know this is coming.  If not Friday, in the near future.

    Thank you for sticking with it for these past few weeks.  I’ll circle back when I have further information.

...

If the test does run for several minutes, it probably won't be more than three.  There's nothing that I can share about the delay -- it's important to note that SpaceX does testing all the time, often daily.  Shifting schedules are not outside the norm.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/30/2013 04:27 am
http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/new-word-on-spacex-testing/article_cf049a90-c8a4-11e2-834d-001a4bcf887a.html

Quote from: Christina Ra


    We’ve switched gears a bit here.  SpaceX is planning to run a test at our rocket development facility in McGregor that will be much louder than the typical tests we run daily, and this test could run from 30-seconds in duration to up to several minutes.  This test could occur as early as Friday, May 31st.   Given that the test could run for several minutes, it’s important that the community know this is coming.  If not Friday, in the near future.

    Thank you for sticking with it for these past few weeks.  I’ll circle back when I have further information.

...

If the test does run for several minutes, it probably won't be more than three.  There's nothing that I can share about the delay -- it's important to note that SpaceX does testing all the time, often daily.  Shifting schedules are not outside the norm.

"Up to three minutes or more" = "impossible to get more vague"
http://xkcd.com/870/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Confusador on 05/30/2013 08:34 am
http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/new-word-on-spacex-testing/article_cf049a90-c8a4-11e2-834d-001a4bcf887a.html

Quote from: Christina Ra


    We’ve switched gears a bit here.  SpaceX is planning to run a test at our rocket development facility in McGregor that will be much louder than the typical tests we run daily, and this test could run from 30-seconds in duration to up to several minutes.  This test could occur as early as Friday, May 31st.   Given that the test could run for several minutes, it’s important that the community know this is coming.  If not Friday, in the near future.

    Thank you for sticking with it for these past few weeks.  I’ll circle back when I have further information.

...

If the test does run for several minutes, it probably won't be more than three.  There's nothing that I can share about the delay -- it's important to note that SpaceX does testing all the time, often daily.  Shifting schedules are not outside the norm.

"Up to three minutes or more" = "impossible to get more vague"
http://xkcd.com/870/

Yes, well, I think that article's author had the right of it in his Tuesday article (http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/spacex-update-perry-signs-spaceport-bill-louder-test-still-to/article_7c811c46-c7e4-11e2-819b-001a4bcf887a.html):

Quote from: Joseph Abbott
...precisely because such delays were a strong possibility, I doubt we'd even have heard about this so far in advance had it not been deemed prudent, just after the West explosion, to reassure residents that the rumble they might be hearing wasn't a sequel.

It's not surprising that the details are vague.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/30/2013 12:51 pm
I like the tag line of

Quote
The Test of Unusual Loudness
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Skyrocket on 05/30/2013 05:06 pm
Another payload has joint this launch. DANDE (Drag and Atmospheric Neutral Density Explorer)

https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 05/30/2013 06:28 pm
Another payload has joint this launch. DANDE (Drag and Atmospheric Neutral Density Explorer)

https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande)
Launch: A launch as a secondary payload of the DANDE spacecraft is scheduled for July 2013 on a SpaceX Falcon V.1.1 vehicle from VAFB, CA. The primary payload on this flight is CASSIOPE of Canada. 7) (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande#foot7%29)The secondary payloads on this flight are:•   CUSat-1 and CUSat-2, microsatellites (each of ~41 kg) of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.•   DANDE (Drag and Atmospheric Neutral Density Explorer), a microsatellite (<50 kg) of the University of Colorado at Boulder.•   POPACS (Polar Orbiting Passive Atmospheric Calibration Sphere), a 3U CubeSat of several US universities and entities including: MSU (Morehead State University), Gil Moore (POPACS Project Director), the University of Arkansas, PSC (Planetary Systems Corporation), Silver Spring, MD, MSU (Montana State University), Drexel University (Philadelphia), et al.Orbit: Elliptical polar orbit, 324 km x 1500 km, inclination =80º, period = 103 minutes (14 orbits/day).
 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kiba on 05/30/2013 08:46 pm
How much additional revenue is SpaceX getting from secondary payload?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/31/2013 10:42 am
SpaceX confirming their is currently no launch date for this mission at the moment (as they work through several issues with the v1.1):

Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes
SpaceX: No firm date for flight of new-version Falcon 9 with Canada's Cassiope science sat. Launch will prepare F9 for geo commercial market
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: fatjohn1408 on 06/04/2013 01:33 pm
Another payload has joint this launch. DANDE (Drag and Atmospheric Neutral Density Explorer)

https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande)
Launch: A launch as a secondary payload of the DANDE spacecraft is scheduled for July 2013 on a SpaceX Falcon V.1.1 vehicle from VAFB, CA. The primary payload on this flight is CASSIOPE of Canada. 7) (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande#foot7%29)The secondary payloads on this flight are:•   CUSat-1 and CUSat-2, microsatellites (each of ~41 kg) of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.•   DANDE (Drag and Atmospheric Neutral Density Explorer), a microsatellite (<50 kg) of the University of Colorado at Boulder.•   POPACS (Polar Orbiting Passive Atmospheric Calibration Sphere), a 3U CubeSat of several US universities and entities including: MSU (Morehead State University), Gil Moore (POPACS Project Director), the University of Arkansas, PSC (Planetary Systems Corporation), Silver Spring, MD, MSU (Montana State University), Drexel University (Philadelphia), et al.Orbit: Elliptical polar orbit, 324 km x 1500 km, inclination =80º, period = 103 minutes (14 orbits/day).
 

What is the mass of the primary satellite? Will this launch be a new mass record for Falcon 9?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 06/04/2013 02:05 pm
What is the mass of the primary satellite? Will this launch be a new mass record for Falcon 9?

On the contradictory, it weighs just something around 500 kg.  ;) (It was actually once a Falcon 1e payload)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: R7 on 06/04/2013 04:45 pm
(It was actually once a Falcon 1e payload)

Launch manifest put it on stock Falcon 1 since 2005. Falcon 1e appeared in 2009 and then CASSIOPE was already moved to Falcon-9. Web-archive is your friend.

But how was Space-X supposed to fit 180cm hexagon into 150cm fairing? Maybe the very issue played part in post-poning it's launch back then, or has CASSIOPE grown since?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 06/04/2013 06:11 pm
What is the mass of the primary satellite? Will this launch be a new mass record for Falcon 9?

On the contradictory, it weighs just something around 500 kg.  ;) (It was actually once a Falcon 1e payload)

wonder if the plan is to ballast the rest of the payload?  Even with a non-full fuel load this is over kill.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 06/04/2013 06:25 pm
What is the mass of the primary satellite? Will this launch be a new mass record for Falcon 9?

On the contradictory, it weighs just something around 500 kg.  ;) (It was actually once a Falcon 1e payload)

wonder if the plan is to ballast the rest of the payload?  Even with a non-full fuel load this is over kill.

Remember SpaceX got their pseudo landing attempt after the 2nd stage departs with the core. Lots of margin with a high fraction of remaining propellants.

Anyone know if the core will attempt some sort of boost back maneuver test before the pseudo landing attempt?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: neoforce on 06/04/2013 06:46 pm
What is the mass of the primary satellite? Will this launch be a new mass record for Falcon 9?

On the contradictory, it weighs just something around 500 kg.  ;) (It was actually once a Falcon 1e payload)

wonder if the plan is to ballast the rest of the payload?  Even with a non-full fuel load this is over kill.

Remember SpaceX got their pseudo landing attempt after the 2nd stage departs with the core. Lots of margin with a high fraction of remaining propellants.

Anyone know if the core will attempt some sort of boost back maneuver test before the pseudo landing attempt?


No boost back on first attempt.    From the post CRS 2 news conference at http://shitelonsays.com/transcript/crs-2-post-landing-teleconference-2013-03-27

Quote
With respect to the recovery, the initial recovery attempts will be from a water landing. The first stage booster will, after separation, continue in a ballistic arc and execute a velocity reduction burn before hitting the atmosphere, just to lessen the impact. Then, right before sort-of splashdown of the stage, it's going to light the engine again. So, there will be two burns after stage separation,
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: GBpatsfan on 06/05/2013 11:27 pm
From Dan Leone(@Leone_SN) on Twitter
Quote
@CSA_ASC says notional launch date for #CASSIOPE space weather satellite is Aug. 14 - little later than expected - on @SpaceX Falcon 9 1.1.

 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/05/2013 11:45 pm
From Dan Leone(@Leone_SN) on Twitter
Quote
@CSA_ASC says notional launch date for #CASSIOPE space weather satellite is Aug. 14 - little later than expected - on @SpaceX Falcon 9 1.1.

Not nearly as bad as many of us feared, but of course like all things, that's a NET number.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: GBpatsfan on 06/23/2013 08:10 pm
Sounds like the launch date is now targeted for September 5th.  At this point I wouldn't count on any date to hold before the rocket has been successfully integrated with the pad.
 http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/ (http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/23/2013 09:58 pm
Leave it with me Prober. That's a good point of reference to approach SpaceX with tomorrow.

I guess they'll say prelim, pending acceptance testing etc...so I'll include the questions on that too.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jcc on 06/24/2013 11:22 am
Leave it with me Prober. That's a good point of reference to approach SpaceX with tomorrow.

I guess they'll say prelim, pending acceptance testing etc...so I'll include the questions on that too.

We haven't really gotten the status of the Vandenburg facilities yet, have we. Last I recall they were still working on it, and it was an open question if it will be ready by the time the rocket is. Chances are better now that the rocket is delayed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 06/25/2013 12:04 am
Leave it with me Prober. That's a good point of reference to approach SpaceX with tomorrow.

I guess they'll say prelim, pending acceptance testing etc...so I'll include the questions on that too.

We haven't really gotten the status of the Vandenburg facilities yet, have we. Last I recall they were still working on it, and it was an open question if it will be ready by the time the rocket is. Chances are better now that the rocket is delayed.

According to an article in AviationWeek, Vandenberg is basically ready:
Quote
Cassiope will be the first to launch from SpaceX's new pad at Vandenberg AFB, Calif. Ra says the pad is “in good shape . . . . Vandenberg is basically ready for launch.”

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_06_17_2013_p56-587359.xml&p=2
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: beancounter on 06/25/2013 01:25 am
Leave it with me Prober. That's a good point of reference to approach SpaceX with tomorrow.

I guess they'll say prelim, pending acceptance testing etc...so I'll include the questions on that too.

We haven't really gotten the status of the Vandenburg facilities yet, have we. Last I recall they were still working on it, and it was an open question if it will be ready by the time the rocket is. Chances are better now that the rocket is delayed.

According to an article in AviationWeek, Vandenberg is basically ready:
Quote
Cassiope will be the first to launch from SpaceX's new pad at Vandenberg AFB, Calif. Ra says the pad is “in good shape . . . . Vandenberg is basically ready for launch.”

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_06_17_2013_p56-587359.xml&p=2

Just what does 'basically ready' mean?  This is just spin.  Something is ready or it's not.  With a launch pad, I can't see how it can be anything else.  My reading - not yet ready to launch vehicles.  Might be close but that's not 'ready'.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 06/25/2013 01:34 am
Just what does 'basically ready' mean?  This is just spin.  Something is ready or it's not.  With a launch pad, I can't see how it can be anything else.  My reading - not yet ready to launch vehicles.  Might be close but that's not 'ready'.

In order for the pad to be ready for launch they need to test out the fluid system with a real first stage. Until then it's 'basically' ready pending final check out.  Or at least that is how I read the statements.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 06/25/2013 01:45 am
Don't read too much into the use of "basically." Some Americans (annoyingly IMO) use "basically" as a prefix for "ready" all the time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 06/25/2013 02:17 am
Basically usually means that there is some minor stuff to finish. In other words, it's unlikely to be the pacing item.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: beancounter on 06/25/2013 04:36 am
Basically usually means that there is some minor stuff to finish. In other words, it's unlikely to be the pacing item.

It never ceases to amaze me at how often the 'minor stuff' ends up on the critical path.   :o

edit:  So forgive me for being slightly skeptical.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: spectre9 on 06/25/2013 05:51 am
If the pad is ready where's the pictures?

I'm guessing it's not ready but not quite a hole in the ground.

Baseless speculation based on the old adage "I'll believe it when I see it".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 06/25/2013 12:00 pm
If the pad is ready where's the pictures?

I'm guessing it's not ready but not quite a hole in the ground.

Baseless speculation based on the old adage "I'll believe it when I see it".

We have pictures from when the NASA Administrator visited the site.  It is far from a hole in the ground. And this was  4 months ago.

(http://digitalvideo.8m.net/spacex/vafb/vpad4.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: e of pi on 06/25/2013 12:06 pm
Yeah, especially when you compare that image to that same site (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=24711.msg960973#msg960973) 4 months before that when it was basically just a fancy hole in the ground. If they want to send a spokesperson out to tell me that they're "basically ready," I think the evidence to me shows that it's likely at least true in an Obi-Wan sort of way.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/25/2013 01:01 pm
I think the rocket is still likely the pacing item.

That structure in the hole is impressive.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 06/25/2013 01:45 pm
I think the rocket is still likely the pacing item.

That structure in the hole is impressive.

But from the picture, there is still a bunch of stuff missing above the hold in the ground. Maybe it's too far zoomed-out, but that looks like a lot of rebar or some type of short steel beams sticking out of the concrete. Like more concrete needs to be poured to create some above-ground structures, or some type of major construction still needs to occur.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: e of pi on 06/25/2013 02:03 pm
But from the picture, there is still a bunch of stuff missing above the hold in the ground. Maybe it's too far zoomed-out, but that looks like a lot of rebar or some type of short steel beams sticking out of the concrete. Like more concrete needs to be poured to create some above-ground structures, or some type of major construction still needs to occur.
As I noted, that photo was four months ago. In the four months between it and thephotos I linked that were from October, they turned a hole in thr ground into all that. I think it's likely that the vehicle is the pacing item--they've had plenty of time for the major construction to finish at the pace they were going.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 06/25/2013 07:14 pm

But from the picture, there is still a bunch of stuff missing above the hold in the ground. Maybe it's too far zoomed-out, but that looks like a lot of rebar or some type of short steel beams sticking out of the concrete. Like more concrete needs to be poured to create some above-ground structures, or some type of major construction still needs to occur.

Looking at the rendering that was released with the pictures, it seems that the rebar is only for some kind of interface with the steel structure, ie no more concrete pouring.
That's my personal opinion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 06/25/2013 08:29 pm
If you look at your picture, which is supposed to be the end result, and then look at the hole in the ground, you can see significant effort remaining to be done.

Sure, there is a big metal piece sitting in the hole. Let's call that 1 part of the "hinge" that swings the erector vertical.

There is supposed to be a huge "erector" frame sitting on top of that hole, where the vehicle rolls onto before it goes vertical. I assume that's too big to be transported in one piece, so someone is welding that structure together.

Then I see a number of hydraulic levers that provide the "erecting" motion of the frame that are missing. There are 5 between the bottom of the hole and the metal "hinge" and another set that connect the "hinge" to the erector frame.

This is not the same simple setup that SpaceX uses at LC-41. Besides, remember the rule that the last 10 percent of a project takes 90 percent of the time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 06/25/2013 08:46 pm
transporter and erector being assembled in the hanger. From 4 months ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 06/25/2013 08:46 pm
If you look at your picture, which is supposed to be the end result, and then look at the hole in the ground, you can see significant effort remaining to be done.

Well... of course. And you did realize that the photo was not taken yesterday, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 06/25/2013 08:54 pm
BTW, do we know if that erector will be permanently attached to the pad or will be used to integrate the LV on the hangar and transport it to the pad, like the strong back on CCAFS?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 06/25/2013 09:03 pm
If you look at your picture, which is supposed to be the end result, and then look at the hole in the ground, you can see significant effort remaining to be done.

Well... of course. And you did realize that the photo was not taken yesterday, right?

I didn't say the parts were not there. They just aren't in place.
The erector is still in pieces, not actually welded together in one piece at the pad. Also, while the future integration building has turned into a temporary assembly area for the erector, it can't be properly prepared as an integration building.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 06/25/2013 09:30 pm
If you look at your picture, which is supposed to be the end result, and then look at the hole in the ground, you can see significant effort remaining to be done.

Well... of course. And you did realize that the photo was not taken yesterday, right?

I didn't say the parts were not there. They just aren't in place.
The erector is still in pieces, not actually welded together in one piece at the pad. Also, while the future integration building has turned into a temporary assembly area for the erector, it can't be properly prepared as an integration building.

You are missing my point. Let me be clearer. They weren't in place 4 months ago. Do you have more up to date images or information? If so, please share.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 06/25/2013 09:31 pm
BTW, do we know if that erector will be permanently attached to the pad or will be used to integrate the LV on the hangar and transport it to the pad, like the strong back on CCAFS?

It's just like CCAFS except a lot larger and instead of rails it will use a system similar to what Orbital does with Antares.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 06/25/2013 09:44 pm
BTW, do we know if that erector will be permanently attached to the pad or will be used to integrate the LV on the hangar and transport it to the pad, like the strong back on CCAFS?

We don't, but besides being more robust, it really is not that different from CCAFS. (biggest difference is no rails)

I have attached an image that I have annotated based on how I see the pieces fit together:
 - Green pieces are moved with the rocket to and from the pad. (this is the structure you see being welded inside the hangar in the pictures four months ago)
 - Blue pieces are attached to the pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 06/25/2013 10:37 pm
Somebody's just going to have to go out there & take some pictures! ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: beancounter on 06/28/2013 02:45 am
Somebody's just going to have to go out there & take some pictures! ;D

Anyone got the pictures yet?   :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jacqmans on 07/05/2013 06:30 am
From SpcaceX facebookpage:

An American flag flies high atop SpaceX’s new transporter erector at Vandenberg. Happy Fourth of July!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 07/05/2013 07:45 am
Larger resolution from SpaceX twitter page.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOXCgf7CQAACyYM.jpg:orig

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 07/05/2013 02:20 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 07/05/2013 02:36 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Jason1701 stated that's an old picture.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mrmandias on 07/05/2013 03:05 pm
First stage acceptance test?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv9srtx9KE
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 07/05/2013 04:18 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Jason1701 stated that's an old picture.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954)

I don't think that's the picture Jason was referring to.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 07/05/2013 04:32 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Jason1701 stated that's an old picture.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954)

I don't think that's the picture Jason was referring to.

Even if he wasn't, there is no useful EXIF data attached to the new image, so it could have been taken anytime between yesterday and weeks ago. They just grabbed a SpaceX picture with a flag to post on 4th of July.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PreferToLurk on 07/05/2013 04:59 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Jason1701 stated that's an old picture.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954)

I don't think that's the picture Jason was referring to.


He was replying to a reply of the image in question.  So other than the fact that there is no EXIF data to back him up, do you have any other reason for doubting his claim?  He has a pretty sparkling track record of accurate information, IMHO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 07/05/2013 05:13 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Jason1701 stated that's an old picture.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954)

I don't think that's the picture Jason was referring to.


He was replying to a reply of the image in question.  So other than the fact that there is no EXIF data to back him up, do you have any other reason for doubting his claim?  He has a pretty sparkling track record of accurate information, IMHO.

That thread had a picture of a portion of the "lever" that is used as a lifting mechanism in the trench. There was also a picture of an un-assembled erector frame being worked on in the integration building.

These pictures were not part of that thread. The only pictures of the erector in the vertical position in that thread were line drawings meant to show where that item in the trench fit into the completed erector structure.

I know I'm getting old, but that conversation only took place a week or two ago, so it's fresh in my mind. Jason did mention that the old pictures were from about 4-5 months ago when Bolden visited the site.


Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PreferToLurk on 07/05/2013 06:14 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Jason1701 stated that's an old picture.  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg1070954#msg1070954)

I don't think that's the picture Jason was referring to.


He was replying to a reply of the image in question.  So other than the fact that there is no EXIF data to back him up, do you have any other reason for doubting his claim?  He has a pretty sparkling track record of accurate information, IMHO.

That thread had a picture of a portion of the "lever" that is used as a lifting mechanism in the trench. There was also a picture of an un-assembled erector frame being worked on in the integration building.

These pictures were not part of that thread. The only pictures of the erector in the vertical position in that thread were line drawings meant to show where that item in the trench fit into the completed erector structure.

I know I'm getting old, but that conversation only took place a week or two ago, so it's fresh in my mind. Jason did mention that the old pictures were from about 4-5 months ago when Bolden visited the site.


Yes, he also commented on the photos taken during the Bolden visit a couple weeks back, but go read that thread, it is very clear. 

Photo of erector with flag paired with the drawing for reference; Spectre9 asking where the claw is; Jason saying that the claw isn't on yet, and that the photo [which spectre9 is referencing] is old. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 07/05/2013 06:46 pm
Just go back to page 15 of this thread.

Those are the "old" pictures we were talking about.

This picture of the erector in the vertical position may also be old, but it definitely was taken some time after the Bolden visit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PreferToLurk on 07/05/2013 07:14 pm
Just go back to page 15 of this thread.

Those are the "old" pictures we were talking about.

Who is we in that statement?  SpaceXULA is responding immediately after the flag erector photo was posted, its pretty clear he is talking about the "new" photo. JBF is directly quoting SpaceXULA. Jason1701 is quoting Spectre9. Spectre9 is very clearly talking about the "new" photo. You are the only one who appears to be talking about the pit and hanger photos. 


You replied to JBF and said that you didn't think Jason1701 was referencing the "new" photo.  I replied and said that I think you are mistaken, as it is appears clear that he is indeed talking about the "new" photo, and that I tend to believe what Jason1701 has to say. 

I know this discussion spans two threads, but I don't understand the confusion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 07/05/2013 07:14 pm
What page 15 ;)

It's only page 15 if you use the default 15 posts per page, those of us who use a higher number like 50 posts per page don't have a page 15. Direct links are better.

I think you are reffering to these Bolden visit pictures:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1067377#msg1067377
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 07/05/2013 08:06 pm

I know this discussion spans two threads, but I don't understand the confusion.

I don't understand the confusion either.

This is the first time we have seen the erector in the vertical position on this forum. That makes it new (or at least newer than the previous unassembled images) to me. We can all agree that we don't know when the picture was taken. It's a common practice to fly a flag from the top of a structure under construction, so this was not necessarily done to coincide with the anniversary of our country's birth.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: DJPledger on 07/05/2013 08:24 pm
First stage acceptance test?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv9srtx9KE

Looks like it. Hopefully SpaceX will send out a press release soon saying they had a successful acceptance test of the F9 v1.1 1st stage. Should not be too long before the F9 v1.1 for Cassiope is shipped to VAFB.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 07/05/2013 08:40 pm
God that's a very bare erector.  I was really hoping Falcon 1.1 had a mostly plumbed pad awaiting it.  Looks like as usual Jim is right.

Yes, the more I get to know Jim the more factual he has become.  I only need to probe for information once in a while now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PreferToLurk on 07/05/2013 09:00 pm

I know this discussion spans two threads, but I don't understand the confusion.

I don't understand the confusion either.

This is the first time we have seen the erector in the vertical position on this forum. That makes it new (or at least newer than the previous unassembled images) to me. We can all agree that we don't know when the picture was taken. It's a common practice to fly a flag from the top of a structure under construction, so this was not necessarily done to coincide with the anniversary of our country's birth.


I agree with all of that with only one small caveat:

Jason1701 claims to know more about the date that picture was taken than the rest of us do. 

That's really the only point I was ever trying to make. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: padrat on 07/07/2013 12:02 pm
I'm going to agree that it's prob an old pic. Simply because I've seen pics of the transporter vertical with the flag a couple of months ago. Plus we've had people just come back from Vandy recently saying there's been quite a bit of plumbing work done...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 07/07/2013 05:42 pm
Padrat, thanks and good to know. Always look to you as a reliable source.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 07/16/2013 02:50 am
Do we have independent confirmation that this launch is still scheduled for September 5 2013?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: sdsds on 07/16/2013 03:27 am
Do we have independent confirmation that this launch is still scheduled for September 5 2013?

Brian Webb:
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/launch-alert/2013-July/000806.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/16/2013 10:56 am
Do we have independent confirmation that this launch is still scheduled for September 5 2013?

Brian Webb:
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/launch-alert/2013-July/000806.html


That doesn't qualify as independent
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 07/16/2013 03:50 pm
Do we have independent confirmation that this launch is still scheduled for September 5 2013?

Brian Webb:
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/launch-alert/2013-July/000806.html


The first stage isn't even on site yet and it's a substantially redesigned vehicle and new pad. Not holding my breath for a launch in 7 weeks.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/16/2013 04:34 pm
Do we have independent confirmation that this launch is still scheduled for September 5 2013?

Brian Webb:
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/launch-alert/2013-July/000806.html


The first stage isn't even on site yet and it's a substantially redesigned vehicle and new pad. Not holding my breath for a launch in 7 weeks.


Possible, but yeah, not likely. IMHO. But they have been preparing the pad for a long time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 07/16/2013 04:55 pm
Possible, but yeah, not likely. IMHO. But they have been preparing the pad for a long time.

F9F1 Vertical Feb 2010, launch June 2010
F9F2 Vertical October 2010 Launch Dec 2010
F9F3 Vertical March 2012 Launch May 2012
F9F4 Vertical August Launch October 2012

I am very much of two minds on this.

It has been stated that the Falcon 9 1.1 was designed to have much more of the work done before it arrives at the pad, but this is a maiden flight of a launch vehicle, from a virgin pad.

SpaceX has never Launched a vehicle within 10 weeks of all components arriving at the launch site, and I would honestly be shocked if the first flight of Falcon 1.1 was the first time they broke their record.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/16/2013 06:00 pm
10 weeks is reasonable for a first-shot estimate of earliest likely launch for this maiden flight; I would be comfortable betting money they won't fly before 10 weeks of all major rocket components arriving at the pad. Later flights could, obviously, do better. And there's no actual "no /later/ than" date, since you can always have delays.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mighty-T on 07/17/2013 01:25 am
Tom Mueller of SpaceX said during a presentation here today at the Joint Propulsion Conference in San Jose that the first stage will be shipped next week to Vandenberg and the second stage will follow a week later. Target launch date is September 5.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: llanitedave on 07/17/2013 02:18 am
Has the second stage been tested on the stand yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 07/17/2013 04:07 am
Has the second stage been tested on the stand yet?

Yes, ms. Shotwell showed a clip of it in her mini TED talk video.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: tigerade on 07/17/2013 06:10 am
Any word on when the fairing and payload will be shipped?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Salo on 07/18/2013 08:00 am
SpaceX Testing Complete at NASA Glenn's Renovated Facility
Published by Klaus Schmidt on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:58 pm via: NASA (http://spacefellowship.com/news/art34581/spacex-testing-complete-at-nasa-glenn-s-renovated-facility.html)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 07/18/2013 12:46 pm
SpaceX Testing Complete at NASA Glenn's Renovated Facility
Published by Klaus Schmidt on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:58 pm via: NASA (http://spacefellowship.com/news/art34581/spacex-testing-complete-at-nasa-glenn-s-renovated-facility.html)

a good sign; now only to test in real flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 07/18/2013 04:17 pm
Has the second stage been tested on the stand yet?
There was a development test of the second stage attempted on May 21, 2013, that ended in an abort.  I haven't heard anything since about second stage testing.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 07/18/2013 04:26 pm
Has the second stage been tested on the stand yet?
There was a development test of the second stage attempted on May 21, 2013, that ended in an abort.  I haven't heard anything since about second stage testing.

 - Ed Kyle

They could use the older C ver. that works to get this mission off couldn't they?
 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 07/18/2013 11:37 pm
Has the second stage been tested on the stand yet?
There was a development test of the second stage attempted on May 21, 2013, that ended in an abort.  I haven't heard anything since about second stage testing.

 - Ed Kyle

Must have snuck them in. Up a few posts it's reported Tom Mueller said at the prop conference the second stage leaves for Vandy a week after the first stage. Guess he should know.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1075341#msg1075341
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Roy_H on 07/19/2013 12:45 am
They could use the older C ver. that works to get this mission off couldn't they?

Yes, But zero chance they would do that. This mission is not about getting a launch up in a short time. It is about proving Merlin1 D works and that includes the upper stage.

MDA is getting a low price since this is mostly a demonstrator launch. Cassiope was originally slated to go on a Falcon 1.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 07/19/2013 12:57 am
FWIW: supposedly the start/finish of a 300s F9 v1.1 2nd stage burn was shown during Shotwell's TED presentation.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32202.msg1076036#msg1076036
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 07/19/2013 01:11 am
FWIW: supposedly the start/finish of a 300s F9 v1.1 2nd stage burn was shown during Shotwell's TED presentation.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32202.msg1076036#msg1076036

Yes, but the screen stamp has a date of 5/11, which predates the 5/21 abort.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/23/2013 07:42 pm
Update and going with September 5:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/07/spacexs-falcon-9-v1-1-begins-arrive-california/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: IRobot on 07/23/2013 08:28 pm
Cassiope is very light. If there are up to 2 engine malfunctions during the first seconds of flight, can the F91.1 compensate for it? Maybe using the fuel reserves for the landing attempt?

I know about the 2 engine out capability, but AFAIK that is not from near lift off.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LegendCJS on 07/23/2013 08:48 pm
Since this launch serves the dual purpose of validating the F9 v1.1 for full time commercial delivery duty, I would think that SpaceX would include some kind of ballast so that when it is all said and done they can prove by example that the the F9 v1.1 is ready for the payload masses of normal F9 v1.1 customers, instead of just the wee little Cassiope (which I think was originally going to go up in an F1 iirc.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 07/23/2013 08:56 pm
Since this launch serves the dual purpose of validating the F9 v1.1 for full time commercial delivery duty, I would think that SpaceX would include some kind of ballast so that when it is all said and done they can prove by example that the the F9 v1.1 is ready for the payload masses of normal F9 v1.1 customers, instead of just the wee little Cassiope (which I think was originally going to go up in an F1 iirc.)

The fact the payload is very low mass gives SpaceX much more leeway in case of a non optimal flight.  There are a lot of systems on the Falcon 1.1 that have never been flgiht tested, better to err on the side of causion and not start the Falcon 1.1 off with a failure. If everything goes right, this gives SpaceX the maximum amount of fuel to try to recover the first stage.

If the recovery of the Falcon 1.1 1st stage fails for lack of fuel, they will likely change their recovery plans again.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Sesquipedalian on 07/24/2013 01:20 am
Aren't they going to need ballast anyway, to avoid accelerating too quickly?  Cassiope is a lot lighter than just about every other payload the rocket plans to launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: beancounter on 07/24/2013 01:34 am
Update and going with September 5:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/07/spacexs-falcon-9-v1-1-begins-arrive-california/
As usual, great update story.  Thanks Chris.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nomadd on 07/24/2013 02:02 am
Aren't they going to need ballast anyway, to avoid accelerating too quickly?  Cassiope is a lot lighter than just about every other payload the rocket plans to launch.
If they launch with full fuel, the 2nd stage will probably shut down and deploy the sat when it still has quite a bit of fuel left, so acceleration shouldn't get that high.
 They can just shut engines down sooner to keep 1st stage acceleration down. Of course, having the first stage separation later than normal is going to make re-entry harder, since it will be going faster and higher.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/24/2013 02:50 am
Update and going with September 5:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/07/spacexs-falcon-9-v1-1-begins-arrive-california/
As usual, great update story.  Thanks Chris.

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MikeAtkinson on 07/24/2013 08:50 am
Aren't they going to need ballast anyway, to avoid accelerating too quickly?  Cassiope is a lot lighter than just about every other payload the rocket plans to launch.
If they launch with full fuel, the 2nd stage will probably shut down and deploy the sat when it still has quite a bit of fuel left, so acceleration shouldn't get that high.
 They can just shut engines down sooner to keep 1st stage acceleration down. Of course, having the first stage separation later than normal is going to make re-entry harder, since it will be going faster and higher.

Don't forget that Merlin 1D can throttle as well. Design was 70%, but we have not had that confirmed for the production engines. It is possible that second stage 1Dvac has a different minimum throttle level as it won't have to worry about flow separation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dedead on 07/25/2013 08:51 am
Hi !

I have just one question. I will maybe be in California for my holidays in september. Do you know if it is possible to see the launch from vendenberg from a good point of view ?
I'm french, I don't want to be sent in jail if I cross the military fences ! :D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 07/25/2013 11:12 am
Maybe we should start a viewing section for this launch? That is if a few here are going.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 07/25/2013 12:19 pm
Maybe we should start a viewing section for this launch? That is if a few here are going.

Might be worth it to ask the VAFB PAO if they have any recommended spots.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/25/2013 03:56 pm
Maybe we should start a viewing section for this launch? That is if a few here are going.

Yeah, we'll be starting a viewing thread closer to the time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Comga on 07/25/2013 04:16 pm
Hi !

I have just one question. I will maybe be in California for my holidays in september. Do you know if it is possible to see the launch from vendenberg from a good point of view ?
I'm french, I don't want to be sent in jail if I cross the military fences ! :D

Some stuff on viewing the LDCM launch from outside VAFB was posted here. (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26274.msg999562#msg999562)  Renwick Ave was chosen by many including jimvela, who is really a guy in the know.  You can search his posts for photos. 

This will all belong in the viewing thread when it gets started.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 07/25/2013 05:25 pm
Try this site, it has an interactive google map, only problem that I encountered, it doesn't have the SpaceX launch Pad on it...

http://wiki.dandascalescu.com/blog/where_to_watch_vandenberg_afb_rocket_launches

this is a private persons, list of potential Vandenberg launches (dates TBD), sourced for giving the launch pad designation for SpaceX as SLC-4E...

http://www.spacearchive.info/vafbsked.htm

This is the actual google map page with side bar icons and descriptions of what is on the map...

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=110826783807456856142.000490cd3c98fc966846d

Cheers

Gramps

edit, to eliminate any support of Space Archive as a main source for launch date information
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 07/25/2013 06:20 pm
    googled slc-4e vandenberg air force base map

came up with this site

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/space-launch-complex-4-vandenberg/view/?service=0

I've included to map shots... one the view when clicking on the above link, and second, where it is in respect to other launch sites on interactive map...

Cheers

Gramps
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 07/25/2013 07:21 pm
The SpaceArchive website and Brian Webb's mailing list have zero affiliation with VAFB. I noticed someone cited him as a source of a date a few weeks back as well. Not the place for launch status or dates.

That was not the purpose of the citing... he had the designation of the SpaceX launch site. Any reference to date of launch is always TBD, and a place marker. It was not to cite him as a reference for that purpose;  ;)

Gramps

edit error in crediting map source
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jimvela on 07/25/2013 10:51 pm
Hi !

I have just one question. I will maybe be in California for my holidays in september. Do you know if it is possible to see the launch from vendenberg from a good point of view ?
I'm french, I don't want to be sent in jail if I cross the military fences ! :D

Some stuff on viewing the LDCM launch from outside VAFB was posted here. (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26274.msg999562#msg999562)  Renwick Ave was chosen by many including jimvela, who is really a guy in the know.  You can search his posts for photos. 

This will all belong in the viewing thread when it gets started.

Just some notes- I didn't see any of my posts in the "joined" thread that was linked above.  I see some of them in the LDCM thread here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=10070.255

That spot isn't as great for SLC4 E/W launches as it is for Atlas, but it's still a pretty darned good spot.

I'm hoping to be able to align my work schedules to be able to take a trip out to see this one go as I'm dying to see an F9 launch up close and personal- and it will be a while before I have hardware riding on one.

I have a contingency spot for days when the marine layer is in.  At that contingency spot I have a fighting chance of seeing the vehicle pop out the top, but that spot isn't great if you want to be close enough to really feel the launch.  (I'm thinking that 9 x M1-Ds singing has to be a pretty good song to be in the front row for!)

Specifically to dedead's questions- First, I hope you have a great visit to the USA!  It is very clear where fences are and are not, and you're not likely to inadvertently drive somewhere that you cannot be.  Don't try to climb any fences, and if you do end up somewhere with a gate and a MP, tell them you're lost and follow their directions to get out.  You can't really get to such a spot without trying to...

If there's a crowd along the roadside, you're generally in OK shape but remember that there won't be any public facilities (food/water/restrooms) at a location like Ocean/Renwick- so prepare like you're going camping in the outdoors.

Also, don't be offended if many of us seem to significantly limit our discussions around a foreign person.  It's not because we don't like you and welcome our French allies to visit our great nation.  It's because we have serious ITAR restrictions that will cause us to clam up in general.

And finally, If you are out in the area on holiday, I hope you are able to spend time exploring Lompoc/Santa Maria and the surrounding wine country.  There's plenty of horrible crappy fast food, but if you look you will be able to find some really good local wine and many family restaurants that, though hidden, are quite good.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: lazaruslong on 07/26/2013 02:54 am
As far as I know from the launches I've attended, Surf Beach is only open for launches off of SLC-6, I'm not sure about SLC-8 launches as I haven't been to one for that pad. So Surf Beach is closed for Atlas launches, and I assume that means that a launch from SLC-4 will close it as well.

There's roads up in the hills that you can view launches from. I watched NROL-36 and LDCM from one of those roads, and boy do they give you an amazing view, and the sound, wow is there a big difference when you're ~5mi from the pad instead of 8.

These roads are also up in altitude a bit as well, so the night of NROL-36's scrub and 36's day launch, with the regular sites and pad socked in, we were above the cloud ceiling in clear blue skies to see her about 20 seconds after liftoff and up to 2nd stage ignition.

Local sheriffs and VAFB MP's will have the road blocked when you reach as close as you can get, and they're quite a nice bunch of folks to chat with.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: catdlr on 07/30/2013 02:39 am
Here is the collection of pictures taken at Vandenberg dated March 8, 2013.

http://www.spacex.com/gallery/vandenberg
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 07/30/2013 05:04 am
Here is the collection of pictures taken at Vandenberg dated March 8, 2013.

http://www.spacex.com/gallery/vandenberg

The bottom arial view photos were taken on June 15.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/30/2013 01:57 pm
Doesn't look like the erector has the umbilicals on it.

also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 07/30/2013 02:22 pm
also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

They don't refer to it as Vandy. That's only in the names of the JPEG.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: spectre9 on 07/30/2013 02:26 pm
Doesn't look like the erector has the umbilicals on it.

also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

Cue Jason1701 to tell us that's an old picture  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/30/2013 02:27 pm
also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

They don't refer to it as Vandy. That's only in the names of the JPEG.

yes they do in many other places
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 07/30/2013 02:29 pm
also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

They don't refer to it as Vandy. That's only in the names of the JPEG.

yes they do in many other places

Sounds like something they picked up from the Air Force side.  When I was enlisted we had nick names for everything.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/30/2013 02:36 pm
also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

They don't refer to it as Vandy. That's only in the names of the JPEG.

yes they do in many other places

Sounds like something they picked up from the Air Force side.  When I was enlisted we had nick names for everything.

I was in the USAF and we didn't refer to it as such.  But enough on this subject.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Elvis in Space on 07/30/2013 02:42 pm
Doesn't look like the erector has the umbilicals on it.

also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

Agreed. Also it keeps making me think they are referencing Vanderbilt University which is known locally as "Vandy".

(Here kitty...eat your veggies...don't be whiny...aren't you a goodie...Here Cammie...My daughter's name is Cameron da##!t...grow up and talk like an adult!) Sorry. Sore spot with me.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: llanitedave on 07/30/2013 04:53 pm
Doesn't look like the erector has the umbilicals on it.

also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

I never liked Fanny May either.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: sdsds on 07/30/2013 05:42 pm
Doesn't look like the erector has the umbilicals on it.

Is there a chance they're waiting for the first vehicle to arrive before rigging the umbilicals on the erector? Obviously everything is supposed to be measured and modeled, but with Murphy and all....  If the vehicle were actually on the erector as the plumbing was fitted then there couldn't be a need for time-consuming rework after a failed fit-check....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/30/2013 06:04 pm

Is there a chance they're waiting for the first vehicle to arrive before rigging the umbilicals on the erector? Obviously everything is supposed to be measured and modeled, but with Murphy and all....  If the vehicle were actually on the erector as the plumbing was fitted then there couldn't be a need for time-consuming rework after a failed fit-check....

What about running lines up the erector to the point before they drape over to the vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 07/30/2013 06:20 pm

Is there a chance they're waiting for the first vehicle to arrive before rigging the umbilicals on the erector? Obviously everything is supposed to be measured and modeled, but with Murphy and all....  If the vehicle were actually on the erector as the plumbing was fitted then there couldn't be a need for time-consuming rework after a failed fit-check....

What about running lines up the erector to the point before they drape over to the vehicle.

?? Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: rcoppola on 07/30/2013 06:33 pm

Is there a chance they're waiting for the first vehicle to arrive before rigging the umbilicals on the erector? Obviously everything is supposed to be measured and modeled, but with Murphy and all....  If the vehicle were actually on the erector as the plumbing was fitted then there couldn't be a need for time-consuming rework after a failed fit-check....

What about running lines up the erector to the point before they drape over to the vehicle.
Seems reasonable. But assuming they have the tanks, piping, pre-attachment riggings, etc. all ready to go, how long could it possibly take to finish this out? A week? I don't see this as an issue with over a month out from possible launch. For all we know, they're doing final installs as I write.

But I have another question. Do we have confirmation that fairing, 1st stage, 2nd stage and payload are all now at VAFB being integrated? Just curious.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/30/2013 06:38 pm

Seems reasonable. But assuming they have the tanks, piping, pre-attachment riggings, etc. all ready to go, how long could it possibly take to finish this out? A week? I don't see this as an issue with over a month out from possible launch. For all we know, they're doing final installs as I write.


longer and then there is testing with commodities before connecting to the vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 07/30/2013 06:39 pm

But I have another question. Do we have confirmation that fairing, 1st stage, 2nd stage and payload are all now at VAFB being integrated? Just curious.


maybe not being integrated
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: rcoppola on 07/30/2013 06:59 pm

Seems reasonable. But assuming they have the tanks, piping, pre-attachment riggings, etc. all ready to go, how long could it possibly take to finish this out? A week? I don't see this as an issue with over a month out from possible launch. For all we know, they're doing final installs as I write.


longer and then there is testing with commodities before connecting to the vehicle.
Good point, forgot about commodities testing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: wolfpack on 07/31/2013 02:37 am
also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

I've always liked the original name, Sudden Ranch.

Double connotation. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Helodriver on 07/31/2013 09:26 am
Off topic but "Vandy" is a common nickname for Vandenberg AFB used by USAF personnel stationed there. Less common but also heard are "Vandyland" and "Planet Vandenberg". Source: I was one of those USAF guys stationed there for some years.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 07/31/2013 01:48 pm
Doesn't look like the erector has the umbilicals on it.

also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

I never liked Fanny May either.

It's Fannie May, and their chocolates are wonderful.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: woods170 on 07/31/2013 02:56 pm
also to sound like a grouch, don't like how they refer to VAFB as vandy.

They don't refer to it as Vandy. That's only in the names of the JPEG.

yes they do in many other places

Sounds like something they picked up from the Air Force side.  When I was enlisted we had nick names for everything.

I was in the USAF and we didn't refer to it as such.  But enough on this subject.
Then why did you bring it up in the first place? Now we have a number of post polluting this thread, including this one.  :D

And to continue on this: the launch team for IRAS (delta 166 in early 1983) referred to Vandenberg as 'Vandy' as well. That team included people from contractors, NASA, JPL, USAF, etc.
This has been a long on-going tradition. Why it bothers you is beyond me.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 07/31/2013 03:48 pm
A little over a month away from proposed launch date. We should be hearing an update soon on integration of the launch vehicle and the overall pad condition.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 07/31/2013 05:28 pm
A little over a month away from proposed launch date. We should be hearing an update soon on integration of the launch vehicle and the overall pad condition.

If the date isn't announced by the AF then I don't take it seriously.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 07/31/2013 06:17 pm
A little over a month away from proposed launch date. We should be hearing an update soon on integration of the launch vehicle and the overall pad condition.

If the date isn't announced by the AF then I don't take it seriously.
After looking for a Launch Schedule on the Vandy (http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/questions/topic.asp?id=745) ( ;) ) website, I found out that;
"Information on upcoming Vandenberg launches is available by calling the Straight Talk Line at 805-606-VAND (8263).  Launch day and time is released three to five days in advance and is available on the hotline during that timeframe.   Beyond that, only the month and year of the next planned launch will be posted."
I called the number & it just says that "Base operations are currently normal." I assume that if the launch date is still on the 5th the message will change on Sep 1, 2 or 3.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mmd on 08/02/2013 09:44 pm
So no chance for late August launch? Was really hoping to be able to see it with my own eyes..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: tigerade on 08/03/2013 12:21 am
So no chance for late August launch? Was really hoping to be able to see it with my own eyes..

Nope, the NET is September 5th
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: lazaruslong on 08/03/2013 08:47 pm
Visited SpaceX's factory. They're still aiming for NET Sept 5th. I'm guessing they'll also conduct a hot fire at SLC-4 sometime in the week or so leading up to launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: TaylorR137 on 08/07/2013 07:24 pm
Quick question: How often are the launch opportunities for CASSIOPE (300 x 1500 km, 80° inclination orbit with a period of approximately 103 minutes) from VAFB?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/07/2013 07:43 pm
Depends if they are trying to phase the orbit with something, or attempting a sun synchronous orbit.

If being phased with something (Like ISS missions), it can vary.
If sun synchronous, once a day.
Otherwise, unless constrained by the sun angle there are no constraints.

I don't think the listed orbit is sun synchronous so they mostly likely they only have range constraints.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 08/09/2013 12:14 am
4 weeks away from the proposed launch date. This is about the time we find out how serious they were about 9/5/2013.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/09/2013 12:16 am
We should start seeing roll-outs if they're going to launch in a month.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/09/2013 04:35 pm
We should start seeing roll-outs if they're going to launch in a month.

Which they're not, so we won't, IMO.  ;)

But meanwhile, maybe someone can start a new thread in which we offer guesses as to launch date. I'm still with Jim at NET Nov.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/09/2013 05:13 pm
  Getting the pad ready will be the gating item.

And look what happened with the Antares pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/10/2013 06:00 am
With NET currently September 5th, and some suggesting that November may be more accurate, what are the critical pre-flight milestones that need to be achieved before deciding to jump in the car for a long drive to Vandenberg?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/10/2013 05:12 pm
  Getting the pad ready will be the gating item.

And look what happened with the Antares pad.

Not the same. Orbital had to use a goverment organization to build their pad for them because thats how its required at Wallops. SpaceX is sole responsible for pad mods at Vandenburg. They already have controll of the pad. Orbital had to wait until the goverment finished the pad before they could do anything.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AndyX on 08/10/2013 08:09 pm
With NET currently September 5th, and some suggesting that November may be more accurate

Not true. See the excellent updates in L2.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/10/2013 11:04 pm
SpaceX publishes borderline unrealistic dates to keep everyone pushing internally.  The better question, as AJW posed, is what are the key milestones.

Rocket on stand (validates VAFB erector).** 
Rocket on stand with cryos in it (validates VAFB loading system, vehicle side should be validated by McGregor)**
Spacecraft and rocket in same building
Spacecraft encapsulated
Spacecraft mated
** N.B. - doing it once doesn't mean there weren't functions on the edge of invalidation.  Beware of repeats.

It's been a really long time since SpaceX handled someone else's spacecraft and mated something that wasn't a Dragon to the second stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Vultur on 08/11/2013 02:12 am
With NET currently September 5th, and some suggesting that November may be more accurate

Not true. See the excellent updates in L2.

Which part is not true? The current NET or the November thing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/11/2013 02:00 pm
With NET currently September 5th, and some suggesting that November may be more accurate

Not true. See the excellent updates in L2.


Which part is not true? The current NET or the November thing?

The latter is not true. They are good for the September NET so far.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 08/11/2013 02:33 pm
Which part is not true? The current NET or the November thing?

NET September 5this the official line, and there are no indications out there that it's went past that.

The NET November comes from some people in this forum with a lot of experience in the industry (and some that just like to speculate), that are dubious that they can go from vehicle that has never been vertical at the pad, and a non encapsulated payload to launch in 1 month.

Falcon 1.1 was designed for a faster workflow at the pad.  We will see how much quicker.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/11/2013 03:08 pm
SpaceX publishes borderline unrealistic dates to keep everyone pushing internally.  The better question, as AJW posed, is what are the key milestones.

Rocket on stand (validates VAFB erector).** 
Rocket on stand with cryos in it (validates VAFB loading system, vehicle side should be validated by McGregor)**
Spacecraft and rocket in same building
Spacecraft encapsulated
Spacecraft mated
** N.B. - doing it once doesn't mean there weren't functions on the edge of invalidation.  Beware of repeats.

It's been a really long time since SpaceX handled someone else's spacecraft and mated something that wasn't a Dragon to the second stage.

Plus hot fire, I assume, unless someone knows differently.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jketch on 08/11/2013 08:12 pm
Which L2 section is this discussion happening in? I'm a member but I can't seem to find it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/11/2013 08:18 pm
Which L2 section is this discussion happening in? I'm a member but I can't seem to find it.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31605.msg1083165#msg1083165 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31605.msg1083165#msg1083165)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SIM city on 08/13/2013 05:34 pm
SpaceX publishes borderline unrealistic dates to keep everyone pushing internally.  The better question, as AJW posed, is what are the key milestones.

Rocket on stand (validates VAFB erector).** 
Rocket on stand with cryos in it (validates VAFB loading system, vehicle side should be validated by McGregor)**
Spacecraft and rocket in same building
Spacecraft encapsulated
Spacecraft mated
** N.B. - doing it once doesn't mean there weren't functions on the edge of invalidation.  Beware of repeats.

It's been a really long time since SpaceX handled someone else's spacecraft and mated something that wasn't a Dragon to the second stage.

Has the spacecraft even shipped to VAFB yet?  It seems there would be at least a week or two of standalone processing/fueling before it is integrated to the rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/13/2013 09:10 pm
True, I was focusing on launch vehicle validation milestones.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 08/15/2013 03:31 pm
So now the launch is T-3 weeks away and their is no confirmation of a time for the 9/5/2013 launch or verification of a moved date.

I understand SpaceX PR department is trying to provide some much needed entertainment for fans like the Hyperloop and Grasshopper's Lateral Journey but the much more pressing issue should be addressed.

I have rarely seen launches not know what is going on once you reach 1 month away so this seems off. Are they so close to the milestones that they are actually not sure? Or just hoping to slide in a schedule move as we stare at the wonders of Grasshopper?

First and foremost I want this launch to be safe and successful and if it does half the awesome things it is supposed to it will be a treat to watch. However at this point SpaceX needs to s*it or get off the pot. I hope 9/5/2013 works out, but I don't think the industry will fall apart if we find out it will be a bit later.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 08/15/2013 03:44 pm
I understand SpaceX PR department is trying to provide some much needed entertainment for fans like the Hyperloop

That's the first time I've heard anyone call Elon that, but yeah, accurate :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: neoforce on 08/15/2013 03:50 pm
So now the launch is T-3 weeks away and their is no confirmation of a time for the 9/5/2013 launch or verification of a moved date.

<stuff removed>

I have rarely seen launches not know what is going on once you reach 1 month away so this seems off. Are they so close to the milestones that they are actually not sure? 

Are you an L2 member?  if so, there is some additional information available, including an interim milestone target date:  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31605.msg1084126#msg1084126

While I understand your frustration, I'm not sure if Space-X is "required" to communicate this stuff to anyone outside of the customer and the people in charge of Vandenberg.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 08/15/2013 04:13 pm
Oh I understand but it just seems standard for most other companies to know 1 month out to announce publicly but this is a private space launch world we live in.

 I was an L2 member for a little while but it was during a more active public campaign by SpaceX so it didn't seem worth the extra dollars but now that things have been quieter maybe it will worth the investment.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/15/2013 04:27 pm
Oh I understand but it just seems standard for most other companies to know 1 month out to announce publicly but this is a private space launch world we live in.

Perhaps it's just their uncertainty of being able to hit that date, but it also might be customer requirements. I remember the "outrage" during the RazakSAT launch caused by SpaceX not immediately revealing the launch outcome or something to that effect. Someone suggested that was the customer's requirement.

To twist this around, can you find any single public statement/release on whether the payload has shipped to Vandenberg in the first place? I can't. Do you think that is SpaceX' responsibility as well?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/15/2013 04:35 pm
Oh I understand but it just seems standard for most other companies to know 1 month out to announce publicly but this is a private space launch world we live in.

 I was an L2 member for a little while but it was during a more active public campaign by SpaceX so it didn't seem worth the extra dollars but now that things have been quieter maybe it will worth the investment.

There is a natural reluctance to announce publicly a slippage when (a) you've been working very hard to meet a very aggressive launch date and (b) you're not sure yet how significant the slip will be, and (c) you have a major backlog.

SpaceX will announce the slip (which I expect there will be, though I'm not on L2) as late as possible, which gives them more time to get a handle on when they might actually be ready to launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/15/2013 05:10 pm
So now the launch is T-3 weeks away and their is no confirmation of a time for the 9/5/2013 launch or verification of a moved date.

I have rarely seen launches not know what is going on once you reach 1 month away so this seems off. Are they so close to the milestones that they are actually not sure? Or just hoping to slide in a schedule move as we stare at the wonders of Grasshopper?


From the book "Mythical Man-Month" :
Quote
"Take no small slips." That is, allow enough time in the new schedule to ensure that the work can be carefully and thoroughly done, and that rescheduling will not have to be done again.

It's better to figure out exactly what you need to do, then slip by a month and meet your new schedule, then to slip by a week four times.  I have no idea if this is really what is happening, but it makes sense from an engineering and PR perspective.  Don't announce a slip, if any, until you have a new date you are sure you can meet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/15/2013 08:08 pm
May be they reason of the delay is something beyond their control, too.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/15/2013 09:34 pm
They have not announced anything other then September 5th.  Talking about any delay as anything other than conjecture is premature.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Comga on 08/15/2013 10:20 pm
They have not announced anything other then September 5th.  Talking about any delay as anything other than conjecture is premature.
At less than three weeks to the NET launch date it is not premature to speculate on a delay, but it is definitely conjecture.

It is not clear that they could hide the progress they would need to have made to be ready to launch in 21 days.  The absence of any news or images is a good basis for cojecture and speculating.

An authoritative statement about the current estimate of launch timing would be appreciated, but just doesn't seem to be what SpaceX wants to give out.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/15/2013 11:14 pm
They have not announced anything other then September 5th.  Talking about any delay as anything other than conjecture is premature.

Yes, talk about a slip right now is pure conjecture.

But if you ask the *conjecture* of anyone on this forum who has actually worked on a launch vehicle campaign (for a largely new vehicle on a new pad) how likely it is that SpaceX can accomplish all the milestones necessary for a Sept 5 launch (see Antares' list upthread), I doubt a single one forum member with launch campaign experience (Jim, Antares, baldusi?, yours truly, etc, etc) believes Sept 5 is remotely possible. There is just way too much work to do. Unless you've done it, it's hard to imagine how much work there is and how long it takes.

In my humble conjecture.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/15/2013 11:53 pm
That's fine. My objection is when people who are not in a position to know start making definitive statements.  Is there a good chance it will slip, yes. But until it happens we don't know for sure. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/16/2013 12:37 am
Thanks, but I haven't. I just have big/complex project experience and a general understanding of a pad flow. And, as already stated, I like to pad for margin. Still, L2 is a great source of information. But I can only give you my conjeture without taking into account L2 info. In other words, NET October is my L2-less conjeture.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: nisse on 08/17/2013 04:03 am
Is it possible that milestones are met and everything is going perfect without our knowledge?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: padrat on 08/17/2013 10:09 am
Based on what I've heard from talking with our engineers that have been there for the last month, things are actually progressing very well for the most part. That's about all I can say....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/17/2013 10:40 am
Based on what I've heard from talking with our engineers that have been there for the last month, things are actually progressing very well for the most part. That's about all I can say....

Excellent, thanks for the update - much appreciated.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 08/17/2013 11:27 am
Based on what I've heard from talking with our engineers that have been there for the last month, things are actually progressing very well for the most part. That's about all I can say....

Is the VAFB facility staffed up to near launch operation level yet? Or will there be a large influx of personnel just prior to launch window?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 08/17/2013 11:55 am
Based on what I've heard from talking with our engineers that have been there for the last month, things are actually progressing very well for the most part. That's about all I can say....

Wow, thanks for the insight!
Anxiously waiting for the launch (as everyone) ! ! !
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/17/2013 04:20 pm
Based on what I've heard from talking with our engineers that have been there for the last month, things are actually progressing very well for the most part. That's about all I can say....
So, the worst part was what the Texans had to overcome?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: joek on 08/18/2013 10:46 pm
Thanks padrat.  Give the crews our best wishes.

So, the worst part was what the Texans had to overcome?
Snakes, cattle stampedes and Tex-Mex?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: tigerade on 08/19/2013 12:26 am
Based on what I've heard from talking with our engineers that have been there for the last month, things are actually progressing very well for the most part. That's about all I can say....

Good luck to you guys, I know this is this a new (or newish) rocket and there is a lot riding on this flight.  I wish the best.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AndyX on 08/19/2013 01:58 pm
Some Cassiope information in here, path to WDR etc, from L2.
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/08/spacex-bothering-bovines-revolutionizing-rockets/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 08/20/2013 12:00 pm
There is a launch window listed on the Spaceflight Now website for the Cassiope mission.

Quote
Launch window: 1600-1800 GMT (12-2 p.m. EDT; 9-11 a.m. PDT)

I am guessing there will be a WDR about a week before the launch window.  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/20/2013 12:28 pm
There is a launch window listed on the Spaceflight Now website for the Cassiope mission.

Quote
Launch window: 1600-1800 GMT (12-2 p.m. EDT; 9-11 a.m. PDT)

I am guessing there will be a WDR about a week before the launch window.  ???

And a test fire!  I hope we get videos of the test fire; I want to see a F9 up on the TEL.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 08/20/2013 12:59 pm
Well, so much for November ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/20/2013 01:48 pm
Well, so much for November ;)
I hope so. But that's not a given. Until hot fire is successful, many things can mean a delay.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 08/20/2013 01:56 pm
Any idea when they intended to check out the plumbing connections and perform the cold flow tests ?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/20/2013 02:04 pm
Any idea when they intended to check out the plumbing connections and perform the cold flow tests ?

According to Chris's article last week this month.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mader Levap on 08/20/2013 02:47 pm
Soooo... so far they are on track to 5 September? At least theoretically? A little over two weeks left and this October slip predicted by many did not materialized yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/20/2013 02:57 pm
... but it's a very tight schedule.

I mean - testing the TEL on the last week of this month, and launching on the 5th - it means that small things that need to be fixed and retested might affect the schedule.

But, tight schedule doesn't mean you need to automatically postpone. These are the same people that fixed the stage 2 nozzle by flying a tech over from CA for a next-day skirt hemming procedure.

Fingers crossed.

"Oversight mishaps", btw, are more likely when everything is relaxed and there's no pressure.  When the heat is on, people are more focused.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/20/2013 02:58 pm
At least theoretically? A little over two weeks left and this October slip predicted by many did not materialized yet.

Maybe we should have had a thread predicting when the predicted delay would materialize...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/20/2013 03:04 pm
A few things need to go right for it to stay on September 5, not just the WDR and Hot Fire. We'll keep an eye on it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: chrisking0997 on 08/20/2013 05:28 pm
other than enabling the arm-wavers to bray about SpaceX missing another deadline, is there any problem with them being ready on September 12th (for example)?  In other words, is there anything mission critical about hitting the deadline as opposed to a minor delay of a week or two?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: wolfpack on 08/20/2013 05:55 pm
But still, in aviation and in spaceflight, accidents happen a lot (mostly?) when people are complacent after having gotten "used to" doing it.

Depends on where you are in the life cycle of the launch vehicle.

Flights < 4, hardware/design issues.

Flights > 4, process/procedural issues.

F9R (or v1.1) is an infant. Flights = 0.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/20/2013 06:00 pm
Ok come on now. This thread is about this launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 08/20/2013 06:22 pm
If the WDR is next week, isn't there a dry dress rehearsal before that?  Getting the F9 vertical, checking all the hoses, fittings, electrical connections, before any fuel is pumped?

So there should be flight hardware at the pad any day now, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/20/2013 08:30 pm
Does anyone posting here know what's going on at the pad? I can't see the pad from here and for all I know they could be doing lots of stuff, just not talking publicly about it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 08/20/2013 10:00 pm
Considering that a launch date and window are published and it was not just a hidden delay (so far) but rather a careful analysis of what they can or cannot do, I just wanted to apologize for my impatient and arrogant rant thinking SpaceX somehow owed me an explanation.

You get wrapped up in spaceflight getting better and each delay from the space community makes it feel like forever.

That being said delays are still quite possible but I am really hoping September 5th works out. It will be a busy September for American spaceflight: SpaceX, Orbital, ULA and a change of the guard on board the ISS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: hartspace on 08/21/2013 03:14 am
Does anyone posting here know what's going on at the pad? I can't see the pad from here and for all I know they could be doing lots of stuff, just not talking publicly about it.
Yesterday afternoon, the erector was upright at SLC-4E.  From north VAFB, it was a little hard to tell, but it looked like the erector only, no rocket.  This afternoon, the erector was down, and, I assume, back in the hanger.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/21/2013 04:00 am
Does anyone posting here know what's going on at the pad? I can't see the pad from here and for all I know they could be doing lots of stuff, just not talking publicly about it.
Yesterday afternoon, the erector was upright at SLC-4E.  From north VAFB, it was a little hard to tell, but it looked like the erector only, no rocket.  This afternoon, the erector was down, and, I assume, back in the hanger.

Surely you have a super duper telephoto lens and can share pictures?  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/21/2013 11:03 am
Surely you have a super duper telephoto lens and can share pictures?  ;D
I'm sure walking around Vandenberg with a super duper telephoto is frowned upon.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/21/2013 11:09 am

Yesterday afternoon, the erector was upright at SLC-4E.  From north VAFB, it was a little hard to tell, but it looked like the erector only, no rocket.  This afternoon, the erector was down, and, I assume, back in the hanger.

That's interesting. I don't think the erector and an F9 can fit into the hangar together. If the erector really is back in the hangar then they must be ready to load the F9 on to it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dedead on 08/21/2013 11:24 am
Hi !

I have just one question. I will maybe be in California for my holidays in september. Do you know if it is possible to see the launch from vendenberg from a good point of view ?
I'm french, I don't want to be sent in jail if I cross the military fences ! :D

Some stuff on viewing the LDCM launch from outside VAFB was posted here. (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26274.msg999562#msg999562)  Renwick Ave was chosen by many including jimvela, who is really a guy in the know.  You can search his posts for photos. 

This will all belong in the viewing thread when it gets started.

Just some notes- I didn't see any of my posts in the "joined" thread that was linked above.  I see some of them in the LDCM thread here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=10070.255

That spot isn't as great for SLC4 E/W launches as it is for Atlas, but it's still a pretty darned good spot.

I'm hoping to be able to align my work schedules to be able to take a trip out to see this one go as I'm dying to see an F9 launch up close and personal- and it will be a while before I have hardware riding on one.

I have a contingency spot for days when the marine layer is in.  At that contingency spot I have a fighting chance of seeing the vehicle pop out the top, but that spot isn't great if you want to be close enough to really feel the launch.  (I'm thinking that 9 x M1-Ds singing has to be a pretty good song to be in the front row for!)

Specifically to dedead's questions- First, I hope you have a great visit to the USA!  It is very clear where fences are and are not, and you're not likely to inadvertently drive somewhere that you cannot be.  Don't try to climb any fences, and if you do end up somewhere with a gate and a MP, tell them you're lost and follow their directions to get out.  You can't really get to such a spot without trying to...

If there's a crowd along the roadside, you're generally in OK shape but remember that there won't be any public facilities (food/water/restrooms) at a location like Ocean/Renwick- so prepare like you're going camping in the outdoors.

Also, don't be offended if many of us seem to significantly limit our discussions around a foreign person.  It's not because we don't like you and welcome our French allies to visit our great nation.  It's because we have serious ITAR restrictions that will cause us to clam up in general.

And finally, If you are out in the area on holiday, I hope you are able to spend time exploring Lompoc/Santa Maria and the surrounding wine country.  There's plenty of horrible crappy fast food, but if you look you will be able to find some really good local wine and many family restaurants that, though hidden, are quite good.



Thank you very much for your answer ;) (and sorry for this one, so late !)
It seems that the launch is still on september 5th, too bad, normally I will not be here. I will arrive near LA on september 12th.
I will not speak about ITAR restriction ;) It's a root cause for us to not going anymore on chinese launch pad ! :D But I speak a lot with american people from a security company on Baikonur and they are absolutely fantastic :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/21/2013 11:25 am
If the erector really is back in the hangar then they must be ready to load the F9 on to it.

Of course, the erector could simply be down, on the pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AS-503 on 08/21/2013 03:45 pm

Yesterday afternoon, the erector was upright at SLC-4E.  From north VAFB, it was a little hard to tell, but it looked like the erector only, no rocket.  This afternoon, the erector was down, and, I assume, back in the hanger.

That's interesting. I don't think the erector and an F9 can fit into the hangar together. If the erector really is back in the hangar then they must be ready to load the F9 on to it.

Isn't the hangar specifically for F9 mating to the erector? Your second sentence seems to contradict your first sentence. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/21/2013 03:57 pm

Yesterday afternoon, the erector was upright at SLC-4E.  From north VAFB, it was a little hard to tell, but it looked like the erector only, no rocket.  This afternoon, the erector was down, and, I assume, back in the hanger.

That's interesting. I don't think the erector and an F9 can fit into the hangar together. If the erector really is back in the hangar then they must be ready to load the F9 on to it.

Isn't the hangar specifically for F9 mating to the erector? Your second sentence seems to contradict your first sentence. ;)

The vehicle has to suspended and the erector moved under it for both to be in the hangar. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/21/2013 04:00 pm

Of course, the erector could simply be down, on the pad.

Absolutely.

And what Jim said. I should have made that clear.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/21/2013 08:15 pm
I've read every post on this thread, as they were posted. Unfortunately that has been over a five month interval so I don't remember if this question has been answered.

Is there a launch window, time of day, for this launch or will it just launch when the countdown reaches zero. What time of day do we expect the launch to occur? (Enquiring minds want to know.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/21/2013 09:01 pm
I've read every post on this thread, as they were posted. Unfortunately that has been over a five month interval so I don't remember if this question has been answered.

Is there a launch window, time of day, for this launch or will it just launch when the countdown reaches zero. What time of day do we expect the launch to occur? (Enquiring minds want to know.)
From the US Launch Schedule (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg1086336#msg1086336):
Quote
NET September 5 - CASSIOPE, POPACS (x3), CUSat 1&2, DANDE, SNAPS - Falcon 9 v1.1 - Vandenberg SLC-4E - 16:00-18:00
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Targeteer on 08/21/2013 10:10 pm
Surely you have a super duper telephoto lens and can share pictures?  ;D
I'm sure walking around Vandenberg with a super duper telephoto is frowned upon.

Walking around ANY military base with a telephoto lens is not just frowned upon, it will almost certainly result in a visit from on base security forces.

All outside photography has to be coordinated and approved by PA and security forces on AF bases.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/22/2013 01:11 am
If you decide to take your telepjoto, please also wear a Che t-shirt and speak in Mandarin. Tha sure will bring you the MP company fast. :P
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: hartspace on 08/22/2013 01:19 am
If the erector really is back in the hangar then they must be ready to load the F9 on to it.

Of course, the erector could simply be down, on the pad.
In my earlier post, I assumed that, since I couldn't see it, the erector was in the hanger and not simply down.  My bad.  Apologies for any confusion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: wolfpack on 08/22/2013 03:16 pm
By when would SpX have to notify the range in the event they don't want Sep 5?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 08/22/2013 04:15 pm
T- 2 weeks until launch. I am really excited for this launch I do believe it will usher in a really competitive space industry in America and the world.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: chrisking0997 on 08/22/2013 04:52 pm

Yesterday afternoon, the erector was upright at SLC-4E.  From north VAFB, it was a little hard to tell, but it looked like the erector only, no rocket.  This afternoon, the erector was down, and, I assume, back in the hanger.

That's interesting. I don't think the erector and an F9 can fit into the hangar together. If the erector really is back in the hangar then they must be ready to load the F9 on to it.

Isn't the hangar specifically for F9 mating to the erector? Your second sentence seems to contradict your first sentence. ;)

The vehicle has to suspended and the erector moved under it for both to be in the hangar. 

interesting....does that mean FH would be assembled, suspended and then attached to the erector as well?  or do 3 separate cranes hold the core/boosters and then assembly happens on the erector?  Either way, id love to see pics of that
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/22/2013 04:58 pm
Either way, id love to see pics of that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUg3QxiTGg&t=13
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/22/2013 05:16 pm
As there is only 2 cranes in the VFAB hanger they will have to use some type of lifting rig. So yes the FH will have to be assembled first then suspended and lowered.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 08/22/2013 08:41 pm

I have seen a patch come out from the Canadian Space Agency for CASSIOPE, but I am curious whether or not SpaceX was designing a patch for this mission.

I know with the CRS missions their are two sets of patches not sure if these commercial missions are the same way.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/22/2013 08:49 pm
As there is only 2 cranes in the VFAB hanger they will have to use some type of lifting rig. So yes the FH will have to be assembled first then suspended and lowered.

Which is what is done with Proton as well, for example. But of course FH is larger and more powerful.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/22/2013 08:51 pm
Everyone over at SpaceX, how about some in hangar pics for this flight? I wonder if the lack of pics has to do with USAF restrictions on base? Will SpaceX even have launch coverage for this flight?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/22/2013 09:14 pm
Of course they will have launch coverage. The lack of pictures and updates is probably more due to SpaceX being busy finishing the pad/equipment, rather than than USAF restrictions.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Occupymars on 08/22/2013 11:52 pm
As there is only 2 cranes in the VFAB hanger they will have to use some type of lifting rig. So yes the FH will have to be assembled first then suspended and lowered.
Is it possible that they could assemble falcon heavy on the erector itself? For instance a fully assembled falcon 9 on the erector just outside of the hanger while it is there a booster core is brought into the hanger and lifted up by the hanger cranes. Then the erector is rolled back into the hanger. At this point the booster is lowered down and mated to the main core. Rinse and repeat for the other core.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nickolai on 08/23/2013 12:15 am
As there is only 2 cranes in the VFAB hanger they will have to use some type of lifting rig. So yes the FH will have to be assembled first then suspended and lowered.
Is it possible that they could assemble falcon heavy on the erector itself? For instance a fully assembled falcon 9 on the erector just outside of the hanger while it is there a booster core is brought into the hanger and lifted up by the hanger cranes. Then the erector is rolled back into the hanger. At this point the booster is lowered down and mated to the main core. Rinse and repeat for the other core.

Answering your question on the general FH thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29214.330
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/23/2013 01:09 am
Everyone over at SpaceX, how about some in hangar pics for this flight?
Probably the best way I can think of for anyone other than the SpaceX POA to lose one's job.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 08/23/2013 05:31 pm
A little over a month away from proposed launch date. We should be hearing an update soon on integration of the launch vehicle and the overall pad condition.

If the date isn't announced by the AF then I don't take it seriously.
After looking for a Launch Schedule on the Vandy (http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/questions/topic.asp?id=745) ( ;) ) website, I found out that;
"Information on upcoming Vandenberg launches is available by calling the Straight Talk Line at 805-606-VAND (8263).  Launch day and time is released three to five days in advance and is available on the hotline during that timeframe.   Beyond that, only the month and year of the next planned launch will be posted."
I called the number & it just says that "Base operations are currently normal." I assume that if the launch date is still on the 5th the message will change on Sep 1, 2 or 3.
I tried the Vandy line again today & still nothing but the "Base operations are currently normal" message.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/23/2013 06:05 pm
A little over a month away from proposed launch date. We should be hearing an update soon on integration of the launch vehicle and the overall pad condition.

If the date isn't announced by the AF then I don't take it seriously.
After looking for a Launch Schedule on the Vandy (http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/questions/topic.asp?id=745) ( ;) ) website, I found out that;
"Information on upcoming Vandenberg launches is available by calling the Straight Talk Line at 805-606-VAND (8263).  Launch day and time is released three to five days in advance and is available on the hotline during that timeframe.   Beyond that, only the month and year of the next planned launch will be posted."
I called the number & it just says that "Base operations are currently normal." I assume that if the launch date is still on the 5th the message will change on Sep 1, 2 or 3.
I tried the Vandy line again today & still nothing but the "Base operations are currently normal" message.

As Antares has pointed out upthread, there are several interim milestones that need to be accomplished before launch, and the accomplishment of those milestones will be a better indicator of likely launch date.

WDR will be a key milestone, obviously, and when that happens I expect we'll hear about it and get a better read on where they are schedule-wise.

Edit: out of interest, I went back and looked at all previous F9 launches and the time in days from WDR to launch. The shortest interval occurred on CRS-1, where the WDR occurred at L-38 days.

CRS-2 might have had a shorter interval, but I couldn't find any reference to a WDR for that launch. The hot fire was done at L-5.

Obviously previous F9 launches had different constraints and schedule considerations. Will be interesting to see how soon they can turn around a WDR/hot fire/launch this time around given a largely redesigned vehicle, new payload, new pad, new erector, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: StephenB on 08/24/2013 12:33 am
From twitter, Molly McCormick ‏@Molliway (https://twitter.com/Molliway/status/370641571315589121):
Quote
Holy moly, we have an appointment with Space in like, 2 weeks. No countdown clock upstairs, doesn't feel real.

 :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jongoff on 08/24/2013 05:05 am
From twitter, Molly McCormick ‏@Molliway (https://twitter.com/Molliway/status/370641571315589121):
Quote
Holy moly, we have an appointment with Space in like, 2 weeks. No countdown clock upstairs, doesn't feel real.

 :)

And in a follow-up clarification, she mentioned they do have a countdown clock downstairs on the main floor, just not one upstairs where she works.

~Jon
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/24/2013 04:17 pm
Do you suppose SpaceX has is running 2 or 3 shifts to meet their schedule at Vandenberg or are they carefully working well rested crews to launch when ready?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 08/24/2013 08:49 pm
If MCCX is the mission control at Canaveral, will this one be designated MCVX?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nickolai on 08/24/2013 09:09 pm
If MCCX is the mission control at Canaveral, will this one be designated MCVX?

MCCX is in Hawthorne
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/24/2013 09:10 pm
If MCCX is the mission control at Canaveral, will this one be designated MCVX?

MCC-X is Dragon mission control in Hawthorne. There's "only" a LCC at the Cape and now VAFB.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nickolai on 08/24/2013 09:19 pm
If MCCX is the mission control at Canaveral, will this one be designated MCVX?

MCC-X is Dragon mission control in Hawthorne. There's "only" a LCC at the Cape and now VAFB.

I think MCC-X is used for all missions. LCC will lose sight of the vehicle after it passes over the horizon, which is long before the flight is complete.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/24/2013 10:19 pm
If MCCX is the mission control at Canaveral, will this one be designated MCVX?

MCC-X is Dragon mission control in Hawthorne. There's "only" a LCC at the Cape and now VAFB.

I think MCC-X is used for all missions. LCC will lose sight of the vehicle after it passes over the horizon, which is long before the flight is complete.

If I could just note a correction. LCC's don't lose telemetry when vehicles go over the horizon.  That is what down range stations, tracking sites and TDRSS are for.   

MCCX is for the Dragon and not for Falcon.  LCCs are for launch vehicles.   Launch vehicles are not controlled in flight but monitored.   The LCC at VAFB is in the RLCC bldg 8500, which was for the Shuttle but now is shared with all vehicles.  The LCC at the Cape is right outside the south gate.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 08/25/2013 11:43 pm
Everyone over at SpaceX, how about some in hangar pics for this flight? I wonder if the lack of pics has to do with USAF restrictions on base? Will SpaceX even have launch coverage for this flight?

The Air Force definitely doesn't have some sort of blanket ban on pictures taken on base at Vandenberg.  This spring they allowed part of the route of the Solvang Century bike ride to go through VAFB.  They only allowed U.S. citizens, checked IDs at the gate, and had personnel at every road intersection to make sure nobody wandered where they weren't supposed to go, but there was no restriction on picture taking along the (miles long) route of the ride through the base.  I got lots of great shots of many facilities on the base, though, sadly, the route didn't go near the SpaceX pad.

Also, we've seen lots of pictures from SpaceX from SLC-40 in Florida, both inside and outside the hangar, and that's also on an active Air Force base.  Since there doesn't seem to be a Vandenberg-specific policy against pictures, I don't see why they would be allowed to publish hangar shots from SLC-40 at CCAFS but not SLC-4 at VAFB.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpaceXFanboy on 08/25/2013 11:48 pm
Man so much is riding on this launch being a success. I mean if this launch has any failures whatsoever i.e an engine failure like before. Then there wouldn't be anymore launches this year which would put this years tally at a measly 2 launches. So here's to a good launch and hopefully many more to come.

SpaceX has got me so excited about space!!!!!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mheney on 08/26/2013 12:00 am

If I could just note a correction. ... <snip>


OK, who are you, and what did you do with the real Jim?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 08/26/2013 12:13 am

If I could just note a correction. ... <snip>


OK, who are you, and what did you do with the real Jim?

I think you missed this bit:

Quote
« Last Edit: 08/25/2013 11:02 AM by Chris Bergin »
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/26/2013 12:25 am
We desperately need party threads and such. I'll get on that tomorrow, which is when we'll probably know if this launch is going ahead or not - thus relevant for the full spread of threads (can't believe I'm saying that for a non-Dragon flight, but such is the interest).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/26/2013 01:28 am
In all previous launches, I was always worried things will go wrong, but overall there wasn't anything specific that I saw wrong ahead of time.  (Though I'd have bet good money against 5/5...)

This time, I'm a lot more apprehensive.  Something about the lead-up feels out-of-tune.  Maybe it's the radio silence that's freaking me out.  I hope it's just a symptom of this being done differently - maybe someone else in charge of this launch or something.

Fingers crossed.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 08/26/2013 01:39 am
maybe someone else in charge of this launch or something.

Or just the different launch site?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/26/2013 01:45 am
maybe someone else in charge of this launch or something.

Or just the different launch site?


Yeah, I'd love to think that, but really - it's not a military launch, they had pictures from the site before...  Regrettably I have to reject that excuse...

And believe me, I'm fishing for explanations...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChefPat on 08/26/2013 02:14 am
OK, who are you, and what did you do with the real Jim?
You owe me a new keyboard as this one has red wine all over it now. ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/26/2013 02:27 am

This time, I'm a lot more apprehensive.  Something about the lead-up feels out-of-tune.  Maybe it's the radio silence that's freaking me out.  I hope it's just a symptom of this being done differently - maybe someone else in charge of this launch or something.

Well, there's good reason to be apprehensive given the huge amount of work they're trying to pack into a short time. Given the stage qual issues, new pad, etc, October or November would have been a more comfortable launch date, but no doubt they're feeling the pressure from CRS-3 and a sizeable backlog.

So the out-of-tune feel could well be that this is the latest ever they've had flight hardware at the site with respect to launch date. And the more compressed the schedule, the more stressed the launch team is and the more likely it is that mistakes get made.

Hopefully we'll know more soon with WDR presumably imminent.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/26/2013 02:43 am
I can see this thread is impossible to control when people feel obligated to post their "thoughts of the day" all over it ;)

Look, they are a commercial company who - like most - have absolutely no need - or wish - to stick webcams all over their processing facilities, or provide some daily update blog, warts and all.

I have absolutely no doubt there are people at these companies who - if they had it their way - would have radio silence until after spacecraft separation, before issuing a post-mission presser, before saying "thanks! Didn't we do well!"

This is not NASA. This is not Shuttle. And I think a lot of the charm of Shuttle has been lost, because if she had a problem you had a NASA TV presser and about 20 meaty documents on L2 (with permission I might add). You respected Shuttle and her engineers a lot because when they solved issues and flew that big lady, it was a victory.

However, I do know - cause I speak with them - people at SpaceX who understand, appreciate, and wish they could probably do a bit more for the people on this very site, as they totally know 99.9 percent of the people posting on and reading these SpaceX threads only want them to succeed.

They do know it's a fan base, as opposed to a bunch of "I could do it better" types (as much as we've got a few of those).

So all we can do is cover this the best we can, respectfully, and what will happen will happen. No amount of "I want daily updates and I want them yesterday" posts on a space site's forum is going to change that. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/26/2013 03:16 am
Thanks Chris.  I posted my thought of the day since, well, there's nothing else to chew on.

SpaceX does not owe us anything.  What I was commenting was on the change in the tune.  They used to show a lot more leg.  Now they're walking around with full body armor.  So the change is note-worthy.

My *guess* is that they've exhausted their schedule margin, and so now everything has to run nominally.  They are also feeling confident that they've done their homework, or they'd have stood down by now.

Given that any small problem will make the margin go negative, they're hesitant to say anything until the major milestone (WDR) is crossed.

They've already said they plan WDR for this week. Since they haven't said anything else, then yes - WDR this week, launch next week.

They should, however, ignore the outside pressure.  In the long view, there's very little significance to launching on the 5th.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 08/26/2013 08:19 am

This time, I'm a lot more apprehensive.  Something about the lead-up feels out-of-tune.  Maybe it's the radio silence that's freaking me out.  I hope it's just a symptom of this being done differently - maybe someone else in charge of this launch or something.

Well, there's good reason to be apprehensive given the huge amount of work they're trying to pack into a short time. Given the stage qual issues, new pad, etc, October or November would have been a more comfortable launch date, but no doubt they're feeling the pressure from CRS-3 and a sizeable backlog.

So the out-of-tune feel could well be that this is the latest ever they've had flight hardware at the site with respect to launch date. And the more compressed the schedule, the more stressed the launch team is and the more likely it is that mistakes get made.

Hopefully we'll know more soon with WDR presumably imminent.

Note that v1.1 is designed to need less processing at the launch site than v1.0.

Yeah - new vehicle & new launch site, but they'll launch when they're ready.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/26/2013 01:12 pm
Changed the thread title as we wait for a launch date.

Overall review of recent and upcoming commercial work:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/08/countdowns-testing-commercial-space-steps-gear/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jak Kennedy on 08/26/2013 01:43 pm
well Chris hopefully SpaceX will put out more frequent updates as it looks like there is a bunch of fans about to turn blue  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/26/2013 02:15 pm
Seriously doubt for new information until they hit the next milestone (I think it's WDR). After that what's next? FRR?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/26/2013 03:45 pm
Good - just what I wanted to hear...

WDR still scheduled for this week (so nothing major cropped up) and they will launch as soon as possible but not earlier.

They can't tell us what they don't yet know.





Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 08/26/2013 04:36 pm
Everyone over at SpaceX, how about some in hangar pics for this flight? I wonder if the lack of pics has to do with USAF restrictions on base? Will SpaceX even have launch coverage for this flight?

The Air Force definitely doesn't have some sort of blanket ban on pictures taken on base at Vandenberg.  This spring they allowed part of the route of the Solvang Century bike ride to go through VAFB.  They only allowed U.S. citizens, checked IDs at the gate, and had personnel at every road intersection to make sure nobody wandered where they weren't supposed to go, but there was no restriction on picture taking along the (miles long) route of the ride through the base.  I got lots of great shots of many facilities on the base, though, sadly, the route didn't go near the SpaceX pad.


I was looking at heading up to Miguelito County Park or maybe on the side of the road on a local ridge nearby there to see if I could get good video of the launch.  Has anyone tried that?  (I don't have a base pass.)  I thought they might evacuate homes up there since it's inside the ILL, but the park itself isn't.  Still, you never know.
Thank You!!!
Patti Michelle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/26/2013 04:42 pm
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....


https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/26/2013 04:46 pm
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....


https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf

An excellent find! Wonder how this plays into things.

"The first stage will coast after stage separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry. Prior to landing in the water, it will perform a second experimental burn with one engine to impact the water with minimal velocity. The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion".

The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion". - This I don't think any of us knew. Looks like maybe SpaceX will set the second stage up for a false reentry as if it would have a landing profile.

Second stage burn as in "reetry burn"? Now that would be something.
 

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: newpylong on 08/26/2013 04:49 pm
I can see this thread is impossible to control when people feel obligated to post their "thoughts of the day" all over it ;)

Look, they are a commercial company who - like most - have absolutely no need - or wish - to stick webcams all over their processing facilities, or provide some daily update blog, warts and all.

I have absolutely no doubt there are people at these companies who - if they had it their way - would have radio silence until after spacecraft separation, before issuing a post-mission presser, before saying "thanks! Didn't we do well!"

This is not NASA. This is not Shuttle. And I think a lot of the charm of Shuttle has been lost, because if she had a problem you had a NASA TV presser and about 20 meaty documents on L2 (with permission I might add). You respected Shuttle and her engineers a lot because when they solved issues and flew that big lady, it was a victory.

However, I do know - cause I speak with them - people at SpaceX who understand, appreciate, and wish they could probably do a bit more for the people on this very site, as they totally know 99.9 percent of the people posting on and reading these SpaceX threads only want them to succeed.

They do know it's a fan base, as opposed to a bunch of "I could do it better" types (as much as we've got a few of those).

So all we can do is cover this the best we can, respectfully, and what will happen will happen. No amount of "I want daily updates and I want them yesterday" posts on a space site's forum is going to change that. :)

Private company or not I think some of the frustration (and other stuff like the lack of information about how manned Dragon is doing) stems from the fact that SpaceX would not be flying this mission right now if not for our tax dollars (if you're a US Citizen). So, yeah, legally they are not obligated to share anything, but many wish they would. SNC releases quite a bit more info on their progress.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/26/2013 04:55 pm
Can we get a source for the NET September 5 change to September TBD?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/26/2013 05:00 pm
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf

An excellent find! Wonder how this plays into things.

"The first stage will coast after stage separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry. Prior to landing in the water, it will perform a second experimental burn with one engine to impact the water with minimal velocity. The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion".

The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion". - This I don't think any of us knew. Looks like maybe SpaceX will set the second stage up for a false reentry as if it would have a landing profile.


And for those feeling just a bit nervous....

"The Falcon 9 v1.1 is a new launch vehicle. The U.S. Air Force has determined that its overall failure probability is nearly fifty percent for each of the first two launches."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: StephenB on 08/26/2013 05:09 pm
And for those feeling just a bit nervous....

"The Falcon 9 v1.1 is a new launch vehicle. The U.S. Air Force has determined that its overall failure probability is nearly fifty percent for each of the first two launches."

I have trouble believing the Air Force did a thorough risk analysis in coming up with numbers like that.

And +1 on the nice find BTW.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kirghizstan on 08/26/2013 05:15 pm
has there been any talk to bringing the spent 1st stage back for inspection provided all recovery efforts up to that point are successful.  one would think it would be quite a big operation to do that so there would be some talk of it
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/26/2013 05:21 pm
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....


https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf

An excellent find! Wonder how this plays into things.

"The first stage will coast after stage separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry. Prior to landing in the water, it will perform a second experimental burn with one engine to impact the water with minimal velocity. The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion".

The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion". - This I don't think any of us knew. Looks like maybe SpaceX will set the second stage up for a false reentry as if it would have a landing profile.

Second stage burn as in "reetry burn"? Now that would be something.

There is nothing to indicate that the second stage burn is a velocity reduction burn - note that this is specified for the first stage but *not* the second stage. It could just be simple restart to simulate GTO deployment.

BTW, I also noted this:
Quote
"The launch vehicle will also carry five secondary payloads to the same orbit."

Is this news? Or just new to me? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/26/2013 05:25 pm
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....


https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf

An excellent find! Wonder how this plays into things.

"The first stage will coast after stage separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry. Prior to landing in the water, it will perform a second experimental burn with one engine to impact the water with minimal velocity. The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion".

The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion". - This I don't think any of us knew. Looks like maybe SpaceX will set the second stage up for a false reentry as if it would have a landing profile.

Second stage burn as in "reetry burn"? Now that would be something.

There is nothing to indicate that the second stage burn is a velocity reduction burn - note that this is specified for the first stage but *not* the second stage. It could just be simple restart to simulate GTO deployment.

I thought that too. but, then I thought maybe not. Hard to say at this point. Just getting the first stage down in one piece is going to be a great leap forward.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/26/2013 05:34 pm
Since next mission is GTO, more likely the S2 burn is to GTO, IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/26/2013 05:37 pm
Since next mission is GTO, more likely the S2 burn is a sim of next mission profile, IMO.

And running it to depletion will also allow them to nail down the exact performance of the M1DVac.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClayJar on 08/26/2013 05:47 pm
And for those feeling just a bit nervous....

"The Falcon 9 v1.1 is a new launch vehicle. The U.S. Air Force has determined that its overall failure probability is nearly fifty percent for each of the first two launches."

I have trouble believing the Air Force did a thorough risk analysis in coming up with numbers like that.

Regarding the overall failure probability, the PDF states on page five: "There is no way to reduce this estimated failure probability, which is derived from the historically high number of launch failures in new vehicles."

So, it's not so much that Falcon 9 v1.1 is likely to go boom.  It's that of all new launch vehicles, historically many go boom.  If it were Falcon 9 v1.1 specific, there would be ways of reducing that estimated failure probability.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 08/26/2013 06:29 pm
And for those feeling just a bit nervous....

"The Falcon 9 v1.1 is a new launch vehicle. The U.S. Air Force has determined that its overall failure probability is nearly fifty percent for each of the first two launches."

I have trouble believing the Air Force did a thorough risk analysis in coming up with numbers like that.

And +1 on the nice find BTW.

I don't think they have done a particular analysis on the F9R. The 50% number was probably based on all new rockets historically.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: go4mars on 08/26/2013 06:34 pm
I don't think they have done a particular analysis on the F9R. The 50% number was probably based on all new rockets historically.
Even so, to be fair:  F1 first flight = extra exciting.  F9 first flight = exciting, but nominal(ish).      A case can be made across the industry or specific to SpaceX.  Though I suspect the odds are a bit better than 50%.  A more relevant statistic might be comparing first launch of 3rd new launcher success rates per entity/company. 

Filet this red herring however you want; approval has been granted. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 08/26/2013 06:43 pm
I don't think they have done a particular analysis on the F9R. The 50% number was probably based on all new rockets historically.
Even so, to be fair:  F1 first flight = extra exciting.  F9 first flight = exciting, but nominal(ish).      A case can be made across the industry or specific to SpaceX.  Though I suspect the odds are a bit better than 50%.  A more relevant statistic might be comparing first launch of 3rd new launcher success rates per entity/company. 

Filet this red herring however you want; approval has been granted. 

If they went conservative, and it still approved, then no problem.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/26/2013 06:56 pm
I don't think they have done a particular analysis on the F9R. The 50% number was probably based on all new rockets historically.
Even so, to be fair:  F1 first flight = extra exciting.  F9 first flight = exciting, but nominal(ish).      A case can be made across the industry or specific to SpaceX.  Though I suspect the odds are a bit better than 50%.  A more relevant statistic might be comparing first launch of 3rd new launcher success rates per entity/company. 

Filet this red herring however you want; approval has been granted. 

If they went conservative, and it still approved, then no problem.

Cheers, Martin
Agreed.

The Air Force's assumption of risk may be conservative, but because it just considers historical vehicles, it is somewhat independent.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/26/2013 07:30 pm

...Just getting the first stage down in one piece is going to be a great leap forward.

That's the icing on the cake. The most important thing is that the vehicle performs properly and places the payloads in the correct orbit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 08/26/2013 07:35 pm
I don't think they have done a particular analysis on the F9R. The 50% number was probably based on all new rockets historically.
Even so, to be fair:  F1 first flight = extra exciting.  F9 first flight = exciting, but nominal(ish).      A case can be made across the industry or specific to SpaceX.  Though I suspect the odds are a bit better than 50%.  A more relevant statistic might be comparing first launch of 3rd new launcher success rates per entity/company. 

Filet this red herring however you want; approval has been granted. 
I think they made a correct decision denying SpaceX's request for launching Falcon 1 first flight from Vandenberg. SpaceX wouldn't be here today if they had allowed it.

Why? Had that first Falcon 1 failed out of VAFB, it certainly would not have been the first time a rocket launch out of VAFB failed. Also, correct me if I misremember - but didn't the environment at Kwajalein contribute an element to the failure?
Yes, the defective part was caused by the tropical climate. So it is not fair to assume it would fail the same way in VAFB.

But if it did, it would fall on the ULA pad next to it. Anyway, this is way OT.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/26/2013 10:02 pm


Hey Chris is this launch going ahead as planned for sep. 5 still?

No, it's not. But September still looks good.

Sorry for being a bit vague. It's not for us to declare SpaceX's launch dates. A launch date will be known, via them, probably tomorrow....however, per L2 coverage, we know it slipped from September 5.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mgrusin on 08/26/2013 10:04 pm
BTW, I also noted this:
Quote
"The launch vehicle will also carry five secondary payloads to the same orbit."
Is this news? Or just new to me? ;)

I worked on one of the secondaries, DANDE https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/d/dande). I just wanted to say I've been monitoring this thread closely to help me plan my travel to the launch, and I greatly appreciate all of your informed intrigue and expert speculation. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nickolai on 08/27/2013 12:51 am


Hey Chris is this launch going ahead as planned for sep. 5 still?

No, it's not. But September still looks good.

Sorry for being a bit vague. It's not for us to declare SpaceX's launch dates. A launch date will be known, via them, probably tomorrow....however, per L2 coverage, we know it slipped from September 5.

Any idea what the orbital constraints are? i.e. do they get a launch window every day? once every 2 weeks? weekly until mid-october or something?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/27/2013 01:37 am

Any idea what the orbital constraints are? i.e. do they get a launch window every day? once every 2 weeks? weekly until mid-october or something?

Don't know about payload constraints, but the bigger constraint could be atmospheric conditions at VAFB. If I read the FAA wiaver that AJW posted upthread correctly, FAA will not allow launch on days when there is an atmospheric inversion over VAFB, and statistically speaking that condition is absent only 40% of the time in September, resulting in only 40% probability that the weather on any given day will be acceptable.

Another way to interpret that: on any given day in September, there's a 60% chance of violating the FAA launch constraint.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the waiver.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dglow on 08/27/2013 04:36 am
Wasn't the waiver about recognizing the unlikelihood of SpaceX finding a launch window without an inversion layer present?
(combined with assumptions around new LV first-launch woes)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Vultur on 08/27/2013 05:49 am
Why does an atmospheric inversion affect rocket launches? I know it traps pollutants...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 08/27/2013 06:00 am
Why does an atmospheric inversion affect rocket launches? I know it traps pollutants...

According to the waver document, it's all about what happens if the rocket explodes in a giant ball of flames.  If that happens, the pressure wave bounces off the inversion layer and most of the overpressure stays close to the surface.  So the overpressure blast wave is more powerful for a longer distance.  That means more of a chance of killing innocent bystanders far away just from the blast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 08/27/2013 06:51 am
Why does an atmospheric inversion affect rocket launches? I know it traps pollutants...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_inversion#Shock_waves
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: joek on 08/27/2013 07:54 am
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf

Also see the launch license (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/launch_license/active_licenses/media/LLS_13084_Falcon9_License.pdf) which recently showed up on the FAA site.  Interestingly, it was issued 2-Aug-2013 and (among other things):
Quote
SpaceX is authorized to conduct pre-flight ground operations at VAFB associated with the launch of primary and secondary payload satellites on a Falcon 9 Version 1.1 launch vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/27/2013 08:00 am
Yes, the document states that there will be 5 secondary payloads.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/27/2013 12:20 pm
Do all large vehicles out of Vandenberg need a waiver to launch during inversions?

I would assume the Delta IV and Atlas V can produce an equally large "bang".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/27/2013 01:02 pm
I would assume only the first couple of launches of a vehicle require it. The expected failure rate would drop after that, keeping the expected casualty rate under the allowable limit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/27/2013 01:10 pm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the waiver.
No: that's why the waiver is needed.  The commonly present inversion would reduce launch availability so drastically that the 3e-5 Ec for overpressure is waived in favor of the total 1e-4 Ec for overpressure, toxics and debris, on the rationale that the specific Ecs for toxics and debris are low enough that the total Ec is less than 1e-4.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/27/2013 01:17 pm
Does the location of pad and flight path relative to other structures and populations factor into this calculation?

I am just wondering if choosing a different pad location would have led to a lower, or higher number...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/27/2013 01:22 pm
Yes.  Here's a good summary.
http://kscsma.ksc.nasa.gov/Range_Safety/Annual_Report/2006/Printpages/SII-Distant-Focusing-Overpressure-images.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/27/2013 01:24 pm
Just so everyone is aware, this is now our general discussion thread for the launch. I'll set up a update thread (which will be strictly updates only - thus not very busy each day, but a good one stop area to catch up etc) and the Party thread (heh) later.

I'll take Party Thread Title suggestions to my PM - private message - (so as not to clog up the thread) - So PM me, and I'll remove this note from the thread when I pick one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/27/2013 01:28 pm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the waiver.
No: that's why the waiver is needed.  The commonly present inversion would reduce launch availability so drastically that the 3e-5 Ec for overpressure is waived in favor of the total 1e-4 Ec for overpressure, toxics and debris, on the rationale that the specific Ecs for toxics and debris are low enough that the total Ec is less than 1e-4.

My comment on the waiver was in response to the question "will there be a launch opportunity every day?" And the waiver, as I understand it, says no, the revised Ec will allow a launch only 40% of the time in September, statistically speaking.

From page 7: " Granting a limited risk waiver...increases launch availability...to approximately forty percent in September."

And from page 4: "Based on preliminary calculations...the collective risk...will be less than 0.0001 approximately forty percent of the time in September."

Since the only variable here is atmospheric conditions, I take that to mean atmospheric conditions that allow the revised Ec to be met will occur only forty percent of the time in September.

So what is the atmospheric condition that determines whether or not any given day will be "green" for launch? Since the Ec takes into consideration debris impact and toxic cloud effects, perhaps the determining factor is wind direction/strength, and not the inversion. Apologies for muddying the waters about the inversion.

Does that make more sense, that the 40% probability of meeting the Ec is dependent on wind direction/strength for debris impact and toxicity?

(edit for corrections)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 08/27/2013 03:12 pm
There is nothing to indicate that the second stage burn is a velocity reduction burn - note that this is specified for the first stage but *not* the second stage. It could just be simple restart to simulate GTO deployment.

With no payload on board, after having hauled a light payload to LEO, the second stage could be going further than a typical GTO.  I wonder how far.  EELV stages in this situation have either de-orbited or gone into solar orbit. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: spacecowboy1 on 08/27/2013 03:20 pm
Are there any viewing areas that offer a good line of sight view of launch pad SLC-4E? I am trying to decide between going to see the launch there or at SLC-6 tomorrow and there doesn't seem to be anywhere that offers a view of that pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 08/27/2013 05:26 pm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the waiver.
No: that's why the waiver is needed.  The commonly present inversion would reduce launch availability so drastically that the 3e-5 Ec for overpressure is waived in favor of the total 1e-4 Ec for overpressure, toxics and debris, on the rationale that the specific Ecs for toxics and debris are low enough that the total Ec is less than 1e-4.

Thanks - useful info.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: c3infinity on 08/27/2013 05:43 pm
There is nothing to indicate that the second stage burn is a velocity reduction burn - note that this is specified for the first stage but *not* the second stage. It could just be simple restart to simulate GTO deployment.

With no payload on board, after having hauled a light payload to LEO, the second stage could be going further than a typical GTO.  I wonder how far.  EELV stages in this situation have either de-orbited or gone into solar orbit. 

 - Ed Kyle

My prediction would be earth escape, mostly because it doesn't leave the 2nd stage in orbit as debris. Additionally, with the light payload, my guess is there's plenty of propellant to attain a minimum c3. Any additional burn time simply adds energy to the orbit, which doesn't really matter.

The other option would be to aim for a GTO disposal apogee and let the burn time determine perigee and/or inclination. This would certainly be an interesting maneuver from the polar orbit the vehicle will be in.

I would be surprised if it re-entered, as burning to depletion would give a large area of possible debris impact. Though we will be able to rule out (or in) de-orbit of the 2nd stage when the NOTAMs come out.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/27/2013 06:52 pm
From the DOT/FAA Waiver:  "The first stage will coast after stage separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry."

So will they simply reduce their forward velocity, or use this as an opportunity to test some aspect of boost-back as well?  The $64K question is where they plan to do the hover and the soft water landing.  They must also have a tug waiting.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/27/2013 07:01 pm

...So will they simply reduce their forward velocity, or use this as an opportunity to test some aspect of boost-back as well?  The $64K question is where they plan to do the hover and the soft water landing.  They must also have a tug waiting.

They have said they will not attempt fly back on this flight. Hovering and tugs have not been mentioned.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: DavidH on 08/27/2013 07:21 pm

...So will they simply reduce their forward velocity, or use this as an opportunity to test some aspect of boost-back as well?  The $64K question is where they plan to do the hover and the soft water landing.  They must also have a tug waiting.

They have said they will not attempt fly back on this flight. Hovering and tugs have not been mentioned.

Hovering was mentioned, by a different name, "impact the water with minimal velocity." Just loosen up your terminology for the poor guy.
Quote
The launch vehicle will also carry five secondary payloads to the
same orbit.  The first stage will coast after st age separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry.  Prior to landing in the water, it will perform a second experimental burn with one engine to impact the water with
minimal velocity.  The second stage will coast and then perform an experimental burn to depletion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/27/2013 07:23 pm
If all goes well the first stage should float, shouldn't it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 08/27/2013 07:25 pm
They have said they will not attempt fly back on this flight. Hovering and tugs have not been mentioned.

Would be a lot more cost effective to just use a water tight GPS and send a salvage company out to recover the stage from the ocean floor if/when the first stage is recovered.

2-3 weeks on the ocean floor is not going to do much more damage than a few hours floating would, especially considering the recovered stage's value for structural information and as a trophy would not be reduced much by the wait.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SpacexULA on 08/27/2013 07:27 pm
If all goes well the first stage should float, shouldn't it?

Can't find the post now, but given known information it was speculated that the stage would float engine down with only a few meters of the stage outside the water.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/27/2013 07:31 pm
If all goes well the first stage should float, shouldn't it?

Can't find the post now, but given known information it was speculated that the stage would float engine down with only a few meters of the stage outside the water.

If the tanks are intact and empty, most of it should be above water.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 08/27/2013 07:59 pm
The stage (if intact) should float close to horizontal, barely touching the water with the interstage and dipping about half a meter on the engine side.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Joffan on 08/27/2013 08:06 pm

Would be a lot more cost effective to just use a water tight GPS and send a salvage company out to recover the stage from the ocean floor if/when the first stage is recovered.


GPS doesn't work underwater. Perhaps you just meant a locator device (pinger).

2-3 weeks on the ocean floor is not going to do much more damage than a few hours floating would

Hitting the ocean floor might do some damage though, along with the pressure crushing the tanks. With a floating tank it might be feasible to add some protection to parts of interest within an hour.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: IRobot on 08/27/2013 08:39 pm
GPS doesn't work underwater. Perhaps you just meant a locator device (pinger).
$500 EPIRB collects GPS data and re transmits to a satellite. Not under water, but floating...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/27/2013 08:52 pm
The stage (if intact) should float close to horizontal, barely touching the water with the interstage and dipping about half a meter on the engine side.
Do you have numbers or is this speculation? If so, it seems pretty close to me. After all, the tanks will provide about 458 tonnes of buoyancy, and the empty stage only weighs about 28 tonnes. True, around 8 tonnes of that 28 tonnes is engine and thrust structure attached to the end of the 42.6 meter long stage, but that won't sink the stage, or even cause it to float upright, (I think). That's because the other 20 tonnes of stage 1 dry mass acts at the center of buoyancy. That should be enough data to calculate the attitude of the floating stage, but someone else can run the numbers, I hope. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/27/2013 08:57 pm
I'll be looking for a good intial reduction burn and a controled flight down. The last second burn may not happen as planned on this first flight. Controling the first stage down seems to have been overlooked by some here. I think keeping the stage intact on the way down will be a challenge.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 08/27/2013 09:29 pm
They have said they will not attempt fly back on this flight. Hovering and tugs have not been mentioned.

Would be a lot more cost effective to just use a water tight GPS and send a salvage company out to recover the stage from the ocean floor if/when the first stage is recovered.

2-3 weeks on the ocean floor is not going to do much more damage than a few hours floating would, especially considering the recovered stage's value for structural information and as a trophy would not be reduced much by the wait.

If the stage goes to the ocean floor, it's going to stay there. Recovery of items from the ocean floor isn't cheap.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/27/2013 09:30 pm
They have said they will not attempt fly back on this flight. Hovering and tugs have not been mentioned.

Would be a lot more cost effective to just use a water tight GPS and send a salvage company out to recover the stage from the ocean floor if/when the first stage is recovered.

2-3 weeks on the ocean floor is not going to do much more damage than a few hours floating would, especially considering the recovered stage's value for structural information and as a trophy would not be reduced much by the wait.

If the stage goes to the ocean floor, it's going to stay there. Recovery of items from the ocean floor isn't cheap.
Good point. Unless it's shallow (i.e. ~150ft or less).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/27/2013 09:32 pm
If SpaceX doesn't have a tug out there, China might.  Hmmm, eyetar anyone?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 08/27/2013 09:57 pm
From the DOT/FAA Waiver:  "The first stage will coast after stage separation, and then perform an experimental burn with three engines to reduce the entry velocity just prior to entry."

So will they simply reduce their forward velocity, or use this as an opportunity to test some aspect of boost-back as well?  The $64K question is where they plan to do the hover and the soft water landing.  They must also have a tug waiting.

the real question is if they have eyes in the sky to watch this event?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/27/2013 09:59 pm
...  They must also have a tug waiting.

OK, let's say the first stage performs perfect reentry, stable tail-first descent and perfect final burn to zero V, and then splashes in the ocean with almost no splash.
A few details to consider before tugging:

1. The stage will float in close-to-horizontal position, with the thrust structure submerged and with the nose part above the water. As I understand, the stage is not designed for this kind of loads, it does not have proper ribs (spanthouts?) - and it may be structurally not-very-robust on waves.

2. The stage still has some redundant TEA-TEB charges in three of its main engines. As a chemist I can tell that TEB reacts violently not only with air but with water as well. Yes, these charges were all in air-tight capsules -- initially. But how good is their encapsulation now, after splashdown - I don't know.

3. The stage still has some liquid O2 in its tank, may be few tons. If the tank cracks, well, LOX plus ocean water -- it will be very violent interaction (and spectacular -- IF viewed from a distance).

4. Finally, there should be some kind of RCS, still loaded, somewhere on the interstage presumably. I do not know if it uses toxic/pyrophoric  MMH/NTO or just compressed He, but anyway it is sitting on top of unstable structure...

Conclusion: Quite a few things I do not know. Here is one more: If I were a captain of this tug I'm not sure if I take the job...
I just do not know :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/27/2013 10:19 pm
If SpaceX doesn't have a tug out there, China might.  Hmmm, eyetar anyone?

Well, for a China tug -- does F9 have a self-destruction charges for launch abort?

dictionary.com says:
No results found for 'eyetar'
Could you define it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 08/27/2013 10:25 pm
If SpaceX doesn't have a tug out there, China might.  Hmmm, eyetar anyone?

Well, for a China tug -- does F9 have a self-destruction charges for launch abort?

dictionary.com says:
No results found for 'eyetar'
Could you define it?

"eyetar"  = how to say  "ITAR"

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar_official.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/27/2013 10:32 pm
As for eye-in-the-sky...  If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?

If the stage is known to be slanted nose up, venting the O2 should be relatively simple.

Any start-up charges can be commanded to fire as it is touching down, no?  How long would that take?

The stage itself, even if full of water, does not weigh more than its empty weight.  They will have some structural attach points ready for a hook up, and then it's not much for a tug to grapple with.

But if it does get submerged, it could be problematic to haul out.  They might tow it to where they can get a heavier barge to lift it out.



It takes a very small line to ensure it doesn't sink. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: RDoc on 08/27/2013 10:41 pm
I'll be looking for a good intial reduction burn and a controled flight down. The last second burn may not happen as planned on this first flight. Controling the first stage down seems to have been overlooked by some here. I think keeping the stage intact on the way down will be a challenge.
Not just keeping it intact, but correctly oriented.

The CG is pretty high up, something like 12-15m when empty, so it's not clear that it wouldn't tumble without some kind of control. Perhaps something as simple as drogue chutes? They might also keep the velocity down to something reasonable in the upper atmosphere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/27/2013 10:42 pm

"eyetar"  = how to say  "ITAR"

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar_official.html

Thanks!
Could not guess it :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/27/2013 10:44 pm
As for eye-in-the-sky...  If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?

Watching the Delta IV
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/27/2013 11:14 pm
Heh, honestly?

You've seen launches before...  Not two are the same and all, but still - a re-entry and a relight - not curious one bit?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/27/2013 11:21 pm
As for eye-in-the-sky...  If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?

If the stage is known to be slanted nose up, venting the O2 should be relatively simple.

Any start-up charges can be commanded to fire as it is touching down, no?  How long would that take?

The stage itself, even if full of water, does not weigh more than its empty weight.  They will have some structural attach points ready for a hook up, and then it's not much for a tug to grapple with.

But if it does get submerged, it could be problematic to haul out.  They might tow it to where they can get a heavier barge to lift it out.



It takes a very small line to ensure it doesn't sink. 

>>Any start-up charges can be commanded to fire as it is touching down, no?  How long would that take?
Good point, they can program it to fire all the remaining charges as they achieve final hovering. It would take seconds.

>>If the stage is known to be slanted nose up, venting the O2 should be relatively simple.
Not sure. This is a LOX tank sitting in the water, ice in the vent could be a problem. The pressure build-up will be very fast.

>>The stage itself, even if full of water, does not weigh more than its empty weight.
No. If you have to tug it, you have to move its own 25 tons PLUS some 450 tons of water inside. Quite a big "plus".

>>They will have some structural attach points ready for a hook up...
... with a STRONGBACK - to ALL of these points. Are you sure that tugging with a LINE attached to ONE point will not rip the stage apart? Remember, it's not a ship, it does not have ribs.

>>If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?
Out of NOTAM, perhaps? But - we live in days of hexacopters :)

Finally -- I'm not saying it is impossible to salvage the stage from ocean landing.
My point: it's not that simple. It seems to me that it takes much more than simple tug with a line.
But - SpaceX has brilliant engineers, they could find a way. I'd love to see it :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/27/2013 11:33 pm
Heh, honestly?

You've seen launches before...  Not two are the same and all, but still - a re-entry and a relight - not curious one bit?


Not from an airplane.   
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/27/2013 11:40 pm
As for eye-in-the-sky...  If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?

If the stage is known to be slanted nose up, venting the O2 should be relatively simple.

Any start-up charges can be commanded to fire as it is touching down, no?  How long would that take?

The stage itself, even if full of water, does not weigh more than its empty weight.  They will have some structural attach points ready for a hook up, and then it's not much for a tug to grapple with.

But if it does get submerged, it could be problematic to haul out.  They might tow it to where they can get a heavier barge to lift it out.



It takes a very small line to ensure it doesn't sink. 

>>Any start-up charges can be commanded to fire as it is touching down, no?  How long would that take?
Good point, they can program it to fire all the remaining charges as they achieve final hovering. It would take seconds.

>>If the stage is known to be slanted nose up, venting the O2 should be relatively simple.
Not sure. This is a LOX tank sitting in the water, ice in the vent could be a problem. The pressure build-up will be very fast.

>>The stage itself, even if full of water, does not weigh more than its empty weight.
No. If you have to tug it, you have to move its own 25 tons PLUS some 450 tons of water inside. Quite a big "plus".

>>They will have some structural attach points ready for a hook up...
... with a STRONGBACK - to ALL of these points. Are you sure that tugging with a LINE attached to ONE point will not rip the stage apart? Remember, it's not a ship, it does not have ribs.

>>If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?
Out of NOTAM, perhaps? But - we live in days of hexacopters :)

Finally -- I'm not saying it is impossible to salvage the stage from ocean landing.
My point: it's not that simple. It seems to me that it takes much more than simple tug with a line.
But - SpaceX has brilliant engineers, they could find a way. I'd love to see it :)

NOTAM is just a Notice to Airmen...  You don't want non-cognizant airplanes wondering around there.   But if you're on the lookout for it?  You're in international waters, there's nobody to close an airspace... 

Safety wise, it's not homing in on you - you will not get hit accidentally.


True about the O2 vent, but that's mostly true if you weren't planning for it.  This vent never has to re-close.


You need a strongback only if you are very intent on preserving the tanks in pristine conditions.  I can't see the thrust structure losing integrity.  It sees a lot of side forces during launch, it's not a flimsy thing.

And besides, your first goal is to prevent sinking, and you do that by latching on to any anchor point.  Then later you can sling up the tank and attach buoys.

You are right about the tow mass, but good deck winches will keep your line from breaking.  These guys make good marine winches:  http://www.markeymachinery.com/




Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/28/2013 12:10 am
Just a thought. The tanks are pressurized, or vented, aren't they? That is, on reaching the surface after the landing burn, the internal pressures of the tanks are at least atmospheric pressure, I hope. I wouldn't want to see them buckle because the fuel had been all pumped out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5VRww1Ypwk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5VRww1Ypwk)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 08/28/2013 12:12 am
This isn't news for L2 members but it's now public information:

Quote
Sources say the first launch of SpaceX's Falcon 9 v1.1 from Vandenberg is NET Sept. 10. That's a five-day slip from the previous target.
https://twitter.com/StephenClark1/status/372505876713590784
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Downix on 08/28/2013 01:32 am
I'll be honest guys, this flight has me the most concerned out of all of SpaceX's so far.

1) Commercial payload, not government, which means insurance riders will rate themselves on it.

2) first launch of a new main engine. Like it or not, the Merlin-1D is untried, lots of risks for a first launch with a new engine.

3) first launch of a new first stage. The 1.1 stage is new, sharing very little with the 1.0. Or at least it shouldn't. Behavior for a longer stage is different, as the Extra-Long Tank Thor can attest to.

4) first launch of a fairing system. We've lost multiple launches due to fairing failure in the past decade.

5) new launch pad. Like it or not, means different personnel, different experiences, training is a big unknown.

This all adds up to nervous-nellie for me. I hope they pull it off, but there are a lot more factors here than in any previous launch they've had. This fails, their hopes for commercial success will dwindle fast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 08/28/2013 01:35 am
As for eye-in-the-sky...  If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?

Watching the Delta IV

a given  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Downix on 08/28/2013 01:47 am
As for eye-in-the-sky...  If you had a private jet, where would YOU be?

Watching the Delta IV
::thumbsup::
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AndyX on 08/28/2013 02:14 am
This isn't news for L2 members but it's now public information:

Days old for L2, which is continuing to be brilliant for this mission. Love L2.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 08/28/2013 03:04 am
5) new launch pad. Like it or not, means different personnel, different experiences, training is a big unknown.
Clearing the pad will be vital, to avoid a Baikonur 45/2, still in ruins 23 years on.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Downix on 08/28/2013 03:19 am
5) new launch pad. Like it or not, means different personnel, different experiences, training is a big unknown.
Clearing the pad will be vital, to avoid a Baikonur 45/2, still in ruins 23 years on.

 - Ed Kyle
Thank you Ed.

(egads, we agree on something, this is a bad omen for SpaceX)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/28/2013 03:48 am
Remember before the previous SpaceX launch(es)? Everyone scared? Well, they got to orbit each of 5 times and survived the (significant) hiccups, pretty good for a new launch vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/28/2013 03:48 am
A 'bad omen'? By what connection? A rocket once failed to clear its launch pad?

I'll be honest guys, this flight has me the most concerned out of all of SpaceX's so far.

More than the first F9 flight? The first Dragon to ISS? The first few F1 flights? Have you forgotten those, or worse - think SpaceX have forgotten?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/28/2013 04:25 am
All of their flights make me nervous and certainly there is a lot riding on this one as well.  In May, Musk pointed out, “A rocket's first stage accounts for three-quarters of its total price tag."  If SpaceX can bring the CASSIOPE V1.1 first stage in for a hover and a soft water landing, we may be very close to seeing a rapid and historical shift in the industry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 08/28/2013 06:01 am
All of their flights make me nervous and certainly there is a lot riding on this one as well.  In May, Musk pointed out, “A rocket's first stage accounts for three-quarters of its total price tag."  If SpaceX can bring the CASSIOPE V1.1 first stage in for a hover and a soft water landing, we may be very close to seeing a rapid and historical shift in the industry.

I wonder if we will get any footage of the 1st stage doing its antics post-separation? I would assume SpaceX will chest-beat with a sizzle reel on a later date if everything goes according to plan, but it would be a sweet surprise if we get to see anything related to that as-it-happens. I would imagine that the 1st stage will have cameras on it (duh) and I would be surprised if they didn't at least try to take video also from the ground/sea/air.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/28/2013 06:04 am
Tracking cameras at VAFB might be able to observe the 1st stage rotation and first 3-engine retro burn if the weather is clear enough, but I imagine the launch web/broadcast will focus on the core mission. The first stage recovery experiments are a bonus. But SpaceX will probably also have cameras on the stage as well, so who knows...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Downix on 08/28/2013 06:06 am
A 'bad omen'? By what connection? A rocket once failed to clear its launch pad?

I'll be honest guys, this flight has me the most concerned out of all of SpaceX's so far.

More than the first F9 flight? The first Dragon to ISS? The first few F1 flights? Have you forgotten those, or worse - think SpaceX have forgotten?
Yes, more than those.

It is precisely because I remember them that makes this one more nerve-wracking. And if this flight is not nerve-wracking for you, then you are not aware of what is at stake here. This is literally a make-it-or-break-it shift for SpaceX. I am not concerned because I feel they will fail, but because failure *at this point* would be catastrophic for them precisely due to their previous steps. Note my first element, the launch insurance. This is a huge part of my nerves. Once upon a time I worked for an insurance underwriter. If this launch fails, SpaceX will be instantly toxic. The cost to launch on a SpaceX vehicle will skyrocket because the cost to insure the payload will skyrocket. This in turn will price them out of the market.

This has happened before, look at the issues SeaLaunch has undergone after their failures. Already the launch insurance industry is on-edge after the Proton failure just a few weeks ago. A rate jump from the current 7% to 25% or higher is not unheard of *and is perfectly normal after a launch failure of a new system*. On a $400 million satellite, having to pay 25% instead of 7% is an additional $72 million per launch, suddenly making the Atlas V at $50 million more than the Falcon 9 suddenly much more cost effective.

And don't forget, SpaceX already burned one insurance policy from its failure to deliver its secondary payload to the proper orbit.

My nerves are due to knowing this. SpaceX has delt with government contracts, which do their own underwriting. This launch is commercial, it is being underwritten by an independent underwriter, which means much more pressure on them, and with every other factor in place, this puts them with their feet to the fire.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/28/2013 06:08 am
I'll be honest guys, this flight has me the most concerned out of all of SpaceX's so far.

More than the first F9 flight? The first Dragon to ISS? The first few F1 flights? Have you forgotten those, or worse - think SpaceX have forgotten?
Yes, more than those.

More than a truly 100% all new vehicle (F9 flight 1), built with far less experience... Yeah, whatever.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Downix on 08/28/2013 06:23 am
I'll be honest guys, this flight has me the most concerned out of all of SpaceX's so far.

More than the first F9 flight? The first Dragon to ISS? The first few F1 flights? Have you forgotten those, or worse - think SpaceX have forgotten?
Yes, more than those.

More than a truly 100% all new vehicle (F9 flight 1), built with far less experience... Yeah, whatever.
The F9 flight 1 was government paid for, without a real payload. It literally could have blown up on the pad and everyone would have shrugged and moved onto the next launch without a care in the world, because we understand that launching rockets is hard.

Now, its not SpaceX's nor the governments money on the line.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 08/28/2013 06:26 am
I would put the success at far better than 50:50 odds as I consider SpaceX in general to be competent at this "launching rockets into space" business but it sure ain't a routine launch of a proven LV. Will definitely be watching how it goes...

Some minor glitches are probably unavoidable (and I would be positively surprised if it goes up without a scrub on the first try) but what really counts is how those are handled and if the primary mission gets done.

If they get all that done without major issues *and* the 1st stage lands gently on water, I will be giving some virtual high-fives for SpaceX for an amazing job.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/28/2013 07:08 am
.. and failure will not be catastrophic either.   5/5 on F9 1.0 was an unexpected treat.  It has built them credit.  (and regrettably, that 5 in the numerator is rounded up, because of the off-nominal flights).

They can lose a rocket and survive fine, but it will hurt.

Losing the first F9 1.0 might have been the end of them though.  And I believe if you go back on the threads, you might find similar opinions about how "this one is make or break".

If you want an easy non-suspensful ride, you're in the wrong forum :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: woods170 on 08/28/2013 08:05 am
The F9 flight 1 was government paid for, without a real payload. It literally could have blown up on the pad and everyone would have shrugged and moved onto the next launch without a care in the world, because we understand that launching rockets is hard.

Now, its not SpaceX's nor the governments money on the line.

Won't make a difference in the end. This new version of F9 still has to perform multiple CRS missions. If flight 1 has a catastrophic failure it might scare some of the commercial clients away, but NASA will stay, shrug and wait for the first succesfull flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 08/28/2013 08:19 am
The stage (if intact) should float close to horizontal, barely touching the water with the interstage and dipping about half a meter on the engine side.
Do you have numbers or is this speculation? If so, it seems pretty close to me. After all, the tanks will provide about 458 tonnes of buoyancy, and the empty stage only weighs about 28 tonnes. True, around 8 tonnes of that 28 tonnes is engine and thrust structure attached to the end of the 42.6 meter long stage, but that won't sink the stage, or even cause it to float upright, (I think). That's because the other 20 tonnes of stage 1 dry mass acts at the center of buoyancy. That should be enough data to calculate the attitude of the floating stage, but someone else can run the numbers, I hope. :)

I did the math some time ago. Also explained on another thread, but can't find the reference.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: malu5531 on 08/28/2013 12:12 pm

My prediction would be earth escape, mostly because it doesn't leave the 2nd stage in orbit as debris. Additionally, with the light payload, my guess is there's plenty of propellant to attain a minimum c3. Any additional burn time simply adds energy to the orbit, which doesn't really matter.

What if SpaceX will perform a TMI with a small payload with the upper stage? Something containing a simple camera, solar panels, cold gas thrusters and high gain antenna? I believe the performance should be enough to do this.

It's been announced that, beside CASSIOPE, there will be 5 secondary payloads. Four are known, which leaves a fifth "unknown";

PayloadMass
CASSIOPE490 kg
CUSat-141 kg
CUSat-241 kg
DANDE50 kg
POPACS, 3U4 kg
Unknown (Mars probe?)~200 kg
Mounting hw~174 kg
Total~1000 kg

My calculations, shows this might be possible with the following Delta-V margins;

OrbitPayload, kgDv from 300 circDv margin, m/s
300x1500 80°676 kg2250 m/s~94 m/s
300x60000000 80°200 kg3200 m/s~531 m/sPasses Mars orbit

http://tinyurl.com/CassiopeMars (http://tinyurl.com/CassiopeMars)
(Disclaimer; IANARS + guesstimates; please correct me if I'm wrong)

Note; The sattelite could not enter into orbit around Mars, only a possible fly-by in case Mars "happens" to be close enough to use residual delta-v in upper stage to "take aim" early in flight, which might be possible considering the time is almost right for optimal TMI.

Why would this be done? To measure performance of Upper Stage, and snap some pics for Musk to tweet casually next year. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/28/2013 01:09 pm
Just a thought. The tanks are pressurized, or vented, aren't they?
Falcon v1.0 were pressurized at 50psi. Those tanks were almost (but not quite) balloon tanks. They could transport and move them around unpressurized, but they had to be pressurized to tolerate any sort of working effort. I don't know about the v1.1 tanks, but since they have the same flow and claim amazing dry mass fraction, I think they are keeping that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/28/2013 02:07 pm
...
It's been announced that, beside CASSIOPE, there will be 5 secondary payloads. Four are known, which leaves a fifth "unknown";
The fifth one:
SNAPS - a 0.5 kg Stanford nanosatellite
http://www.amsatuk.me.uk/iaru/formal_detail.php?serialnum=289

It is quite light, so your mass breakdown is still the same.

Quote from: malu5531
...
Why would this be done? To measure performance of Upper Stage, and snap some pics for Musk to tweet casually next year. :)
"To measure performance of Upper Stage" they do not need to aim for TMI: if the second stage burn-to-depletion results in escape V - they get the necessary confirmation WITHOUT any additional equipment/mission complication.
To "snap some pics for Musk to tweet" they do not need TMI just as well. Look this thread up and try to make a list of all the important things they REALLY have to demonstrate this time - with all the "firsts" it is going to be a LONG list. And I agree with Ed Kyle: bullet #1 in this list should be
#1 Clear the pad without big boom;
It's a new pad, and a new rocket.

As for TMI - I'm sure they will have another shot at it :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/28/2013 02:41 pm

...Note; The satellite could not enter into orbit around Mars, only a possible fly-by in case Mars "happens" to be close enough to use residual delta-v in upper stage to "take aim" early in flight, which might be possible considering the time is almost right for optimal TMI...

(My bold.)

1. The time isn't right. The Mars launch window doesn't open until November.

2. If the second stage is burned to depletion as planned there will be an unknown error in the injection velocity.

Two reasons why a Mars payload on this launch is a non-starter. There are others. A payload into solar orbit is possible but I doubt it.

And what smoliarm said.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: wjbarnett on 08/28/2013 02:51 pm
Interesting insights into SpaceX's support for media with this launch (ie none). And the general problem perhaps too.

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=41515

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/28/2013 02:59 pm
Interesting insights into SpaceX's support for media with this launch (ie none). And the general problem perhaps too.

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=41515


And there you go. Little or no hangar photos or WDR coverage. Possibly the first time we will see the rocket is at launch.  :( (that's if they allow live video of the launch.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: WHAP on 08/28/2013 03:25 pm
MDA constraining anything relating to hanger or WDR, if the spacecraft isn't mated yet, seems a little shady to me.  JMHO
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/28/2013 03:39 pm
One thing is clear, no pictures. We have not seen one picture from the hangar or involving hangar assembly as we normally do with SpaceX launches. We are less than two weeks away (September 10th). My opinion, Don't expect much.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 08/28/2013 03:40 pm
Interesting insights into SpaceX's support for media with this launch (ie none). And the general problem perhaps too.

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=41515


And there you go. Little or no hangar photos or WDR coverage. Possibly the first time we will see the rocket is at launch.  :( (that's if they allow live video of the launch.)

Quote
"For his part, SpaceX’s Chief Executive Officer Musk has had a well-reported history in his dealings with the media. During the course of researching this article, a journalist with another outlet relayed how they had received a profanity-laced email stating that the journalist’s efforts were outdated and best-suited to NASA and other commercial space companies. Then of course there are the issues he has had with the New York Times and Barron’s."

Anyone guesses what's in Elon's email?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/28/2013 03:48 pm
Interesting insights into SpaceX's support for media with this launch (ie none). And the general problem perhaps too.

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=41515

There might be something to it, but I would also take much of what Jason Rhian @ americaspace.com writes about SpaceX with a grain of salt. His posting history with regards to SpaceX has been somewhat hostile at times.

This is the first launch from a new pad, not yet 100% complete. As we get closer to launch, we should see more pictures. Also, in the past, a lot of the pictures from CRS launches have been shared by NASA - who is not a customer on this flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 08/28/2013 04:07 pm
re: sinking...   Well, if there is ~50% gas left in the tanks as they sink, the increasing overpressure as they sink will crush them.  It's not built like a submarine.  How thick are the tank walls?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/28/2013 04:12 pm
I don't see how they could sink if there's gas in them.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 08/28/2013 04:13 pm
Any words yet on actual launch date?   :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/28/2013 04:15 pm
Any words yet on actual launch date?   :)

Not yet. Probably after the WDR (which is tomorrow per L2). As with all launches, it's always a NET (No Earlier Than). NET September 9 or 10 right now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/28/2013 04:16 pm
Any words yet on actual launch date?   :)
No earlier than September 10th:

Quote
Sources say the first launch of SpaceX's Falcon 9 v1.1 from Vandenberg is NET Sept. 10. That's a five-day slip from the previous target.
https://twitter.com/StephenClark1/status/372505876713590784

(This was on L2 before twitter, just to give a little mini-advertisement of L2...)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Longhorn John on 08/28/2013 04:24 pm
L2 note of that slip was exactly 42 hours before that tweet! ;D L2 is amazing :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 08/28/2013 04:34 pm
I don't see how they could sink if there's gas in them.

There just needs to be slightly less gas than needed to displace a mass of water equivalent to the mass of the metal.  Aluminum is about 3x denser than water, so I guess the tanks would have to be pretty full of water to sink.  Still, due to the compressibility of air, floating when they're just about to sink is an unstable equilibrium.  Coupling with wave motion could also cause problems, such as structural instability leading to tank breach.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/28/2013 04:45 pm
re: sinking...   Well, if there is ~50% gas left in the tanks as they sink, the increasing overpressure as they sink will crush them.  It's not built like a submarine.  How thick are the tank walls?

>>if there is ~50% gas left in the tanks as they sink
If 50% of tanks volume are still filled with gas - the stage stays afloat for good. It has total displacement of ca. 450 tons. Its dry weight is only about 25 tons.

>>How thick are the tank walls?
about 1 inch, but I could not find a reference.
Also, the thickness is different for LOX tank and for RP-1 tank
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/28/2013 04:48 pm
I doubt they're 1 inch thick solid aluminum alloy.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/28/2013 05:45 pm
I doubt they're 1 inch thick solid aluminum alloy.

Of course not, I did not mean this. The tank walls are not simple solid sheets.
On SpaceX site, in archives about 2009-2010 -- there was a nice detailed post on tank structure, but with their new site design I can't find it :(
The walls of lower (RP) tank are (as I recall) a bit thicker than 1", but they aren't solid, it is a kind of isogrid (or rib-stringer structure).
Anyway, if you take tanks dimensions (3.7 x ~40 m), calculate area for walls and 3 bulkheads, use Al-Li SG=2.65 g/cm3 and assume some tank weight - you can calculate average effective thickness. It will be something from 15 to 20 mm depending on weight assumed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 08/28/2013 06:22 pm
For F9 v1.0 wall thickness was 5 mm; RP1 tank had additional stir friction welded stringers (joined with rivets between sections of the tank).
Tank domes are probably thicker (about 12mm).
F9 v1.1 seems to have some differences, my opinion is SpaceX changed stringer‘s joining method to save worktime.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Noborry on 08/28/2013 09:24 pm
re:sinking.
To sink it, you would need to fill something *more* than 95 % of the tank volume with water.
At that point, you can be assured the gaping hole the water would have needed to enter by is a greater worry than crushing due to compression of the tiny bit of remaining air.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 08/28/2013 10:00 pm
Here is something new to chew on while we wait....


https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2013-20726.pdf

Here is an article based on your link. It's proof that other journalists read this website.
http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/36960spacex-to-test-reusable-booster-technology-during-launch-of-canadian
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 08/28/2013 10:41 pm
Interesting insights into SpaceX's support for media with this launch (ie none). And the general problem perhaps too.

http://www.americaspace.com/?p=41515

There might be something to it, but I would also take much of what Jason Rhian @ americaspace.com writes about SpaceX with a grain of salt. His posting history with regards to SpaceX has been somewhat hostile at times.

This is the first launch from a new pad, not yet 100% complete. As we get closer to launch, we should see more pictures. Also, in the past, a lot of the pictures from CRS launches have been shared by NASA - who is not a customer on this flight.

The article has a lot of complaining about events in the past.  The only thing that's recent seems to be that for the Cassiope launch, media can view it as guests of the Air Force instead of as guests of SpaceX.  SpaceX says it's engaging less with the media on this launch at the request of its customer, MDA, and MDA didn't respond to requests for comment.

I fail to see how any of that is on SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 08/28/2013 10:48 pm
re:sinking.
To sink it, you would need to fill something *more* than 95 % of the tank volume with water.
At that point, you can be assured the gaping hole the water would have needed to enter by is a greater worry than crushing due to compression of the tiny bit of remaining air.

re:sinking  rethink  if the weight of the engines and tank are angled down; it will displace the water and sink even with a pressurized tank
 
check out how a submarine works.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lobo on 08/28/2013 10:58 pm
A 'bad omen'? By what connection? A rocket once failed to clear its launch pad?

I'll be honest guys, this flight has me the most concerned out of all of SpaceX's so far.

More than the first F9 flight? The first Dragon to ISS? The first few F1 flights? Have you forgotten those, or worse - think SpaceX have forgotten?
Yes, more than those.

It is precisely because I remember them that makes this one more nerve-wracking. And if this flight is not nerve-wracking for you, then you are not aware of what is at stake here. This is literally a make-it-or-break-it shift for SpaceX. I am not concerned because I feel they will fail, but because failure *at this point* would be catastrophic for them precisely due to their previous steps. Note my first element, the launch insurance. This is a huge part of my nerves. Once upon a time I worked for an insurance underwriter. If this launch fails, SpaceX will be instantly toxic. The cost to launch on a SpaceX vehicle will skyrocket because the cost to insure the payload will skyrocket. This in turn will price them out of the market.

This has happened before, look at the issues SeaLaunch has undergone after their failures. Already the launch insurance industry is on-edge after the Proton failure just a few weeks ago. A rate jump from the current 7% to 25% or higher is not unheard of *and is perfectly normal after a launch failure of a new system*. On a $400 million satellite, having to pay 25% instead of 7% is an additional $72 million per launch, suddenly making the Atlas V at $50 million more than the Falcon 9 suddenly much more cost effective.

And don't forget, SpaceX already burned one insurance policy from its failure to deliver its secondary payload to the proper orbit.

My nerves are due to knowing this. SpaceX has delt with government contracts, which do their own underwriting. This launch is commercial, it is being underwritten by an independent underwriter, which means much more pressure on them, and with every other factor in place, this puts them with their feet to the fire.

Well, hopefully they feel pretty confident about launching their first F9v1.1 with a payload, rather than having a test launch first.  I'm assuming they wanted to save a test launch to save the company money, but hopefully that doesn't come back to bite them in the rear.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lobo on 08/28/2013 11:00 pm

My prediction would be earth escape, mostly because it doesn't leave the 2nd stage in orbit as debris. Additionally, with the light payload, my guess is there's plenty of propellant to attain a minimum c3. Any additional burn time simply adds energy to the orbit, which doesn't really matter.

What if SpaceX will perform a TMI with a small payload with the upper stage? Something containing a simple camera, solar panels, cold gas thrusters and high gain antenna? I believe the performance should be enough to do this.

It's been announced that, beside CASSIOPE, there will be 5 secondary payloads. Four are known, which leaves a fifth "unknown";

PayloadMass
CASSIOPE490 kg
CUSat-141 kg
CUSat-241 kg
DANDE50 kg
POPACS, 3U4 kg
Unknown (Mars probe?)~200 kg
Mounting hw~174 kg
Total~1000 kg

My calculations, shows this might be possible with the following Delta-V margins;

OrbitPayload, kgDv from 300 circDv margin, m/s
300x1500 80°676 kg2250 m/s~94 m/s
300x60000000 80°200 kg3200 m/s~531 m/sPasses Mars orbit

http://tinyurl.com/CassiopeMars (http://tinyurl.com/CassiopeMars)
(Disclaimer; IANARS + guesstimates; please correct me if I'm wrong)

Note; The sattelite could not enter into orbit around Mars, only a possible fly-by in case Mars "happens" to be close enough to use residual delta-v in upper stage to "take aim" early in flight, which might be possible considering the time is almost right for optimal TMI.

Why would this be done? To measure performance of Upper Stage, and snap some pics for Musk to tweet casually next year. :)

Is Mars and Earth aligned correctly right now for a Mars flyby trajectory?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 08/28/2013 11:11 pm
Well, hopefully they feel pretty confident about launching their first F9v1.1 with a payload, rather than having a test launch first.  I'm assuming they wanted to save a test launch to save the company money, but hopefully that doesn't come back to bite them in the rear.

Cassiope is kind of a test launch.  It's a lot smaller and less valuable than the typical Falcon 9 payload.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: llanitedave on 08/28/2013 11:43 pm
re:sinking.
To sink it, you would need to fill something *more* than 95 % of the tank volume with water.
At that point, you can be assured the gaping hole the water would have needed to enter by is a greater worry than crushing due to compression of the tiny bit of remaining air.

re:sinking  rethink  if the weight of the engines and tank are angled down; it will displace the water and sink even with a pressurized tank
 
check out how a submarine works.

The submarine submerges by opening valves at the top of the ballast tanks to allow air to escape as the water enters from the bottom.  The bottom of the ballast tank is always open.  As long as the tank valves are shut, no air escapes, so no water gets in.

If the Falcon 9 tank is floating engines down, even if it's possible for water to enter the tanks through the engine piping (assuming the valves are no longer sealed, or don't shut against reverse pressure), as long as there is no hole in the top of the tank, the water entry will be limited by internal pressure, and the tank will remain afloat.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: go4mars on 08/28/2013 11:48 pm
What if SpaceX will perform a TMI with a small payload with the upper stage? Something containing a simple camera, solar panels, cold gas thrusters and high gain antenna? I believe the performance should be enough to do this... a possible fly-by in case Mars "happens" to be close enough to use residual delta-v in upper stage to "take aim" early in flight, which might be possible considering the time is almost right for optimal TMI.
I don't think they would even need to announce it.  Would they? 

At the least, they could take some cool pictures of Earth as it recedes, and if the alignment is wrong for Mars, aim to crash it into some other celestial body.  There may be a few comm elements, or materials tests pertinent to Red Dragon or other future plans that would be worth trying when excess upmass allows. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: baldusi on 08/29/2013 01:22 am
Is Mars and Earth aligned correctly right now for a Mars flyby trajectory?
I don't think the planes are aligned now. Unless you do a very expensive plane change maneuver when you intersect the Mars orbital plane, I don't believe can't really reach Mars right now with a single impulse at LEO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: DaveH62 on 08/29/2013 02:39 am
Is Mars and Earth aligned correctly right now for a Mars flyby trajectory?
I don't think the planes are aligned now. Unless you do a very expensive plane change maneuver when you intersect the Mars orbital plane, I don't believe can't really reach Mars right now with a single impulse at LEO.
Could anyone be ready for an X-Prize shot to the moon?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 08/29/2013 02:48 am
Is Mars and Earth aligned correctly right now for a Mars flyby trajectory?
The next minimum energy Mars trajectory window opens during November of this year.  I'm not sure how much extra energy would be needed for a, say, mid-September launch, but we are talking about a stage with almost zero payload.  There must be a calculator out there somewhere.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Arthree on 08/29/2013 06:02 am
Is Mars and Earth aligned correctly right now for a Mars flyby trajectory?
The next minimum energy Mars trajectory window opens during November of this year.  I'm not sure how much extra energy would be needed for a, say, mid-September launch, but we are talking about a stage with almost zero payload.  There must be a calculator out there somewhere.

 - Ed Kyle

The C3 for Mars flyby if we're talking about departure on September 9th is about 53 km2/s2, or as "low" as C3=18 towards the end of October.  It might be an empty stage but I doubt it can give itself that much of a boost.

Source: Trajectory Optimization Tool. (http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5418)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Soralin on 08/29/2013 09:38 am
Well, wild speculation is always fun. :)

Let's see, two things:  One, you could boost to a Mars transfer orbit anytime you like, for the same cost.  It's just that if you do it at the wrong time, you arrive at Mars-distance from the sun when Mars doesn't happen to be nearby.  Now, if it's just for a test, with a second stage that wouldn't be useful for much else, that could be fine in itself.

Secondly, what if you don't mind not reaching Mars right away?  I mean, if you boost into a Mars transfer orbit, and Mars isn't at the far end when you get there, you'll just find yourself in an elliptical orbit that goes between Earth-distance from the sun, and Mars-distance from the sun.  You won't reach Mars the first time you get out to Mars-orbital distance, but what if you plan to reach it on your 2nd or 3rd or 4th time around?  You could possibly make the launch timing work without needing much extra fuel, if you're willing to loop around multiple times in your orbit before reaching your destination.  Although any such plan would mean a travel time of multiple years at a minimum.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/29/2013 10:50 am
Why are we still talking about Mars injections? Burn to depletion and TMI are mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/29/2013 11:09 am
Why are we still talking about Mars injections? Burn to depletion and TMI are mutually exclusive.

From what I remember from the course of Orbital Mechanics (18 years ago) - this exactly the truth.
And to be honest, I don't remember much from Orbital Mechanics, but here is one more constraint on wild speculations:
CASSIOPE has near-polar orbit; and it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/29/2013 11:16 am
CASSIOPE has near-polar orbit; and it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.

If by one burn you mean the first burn of the 2nd stage, then I agree. If you mean one restart after already in LEO, I disagree. You can do TLI and TMI, in case of the Moon it may affect your approach trajectory groundtrack (lunatrack?), in case of Mars it makes no difference as you're injecting into a hyperbolic trajectory away from Earth.

My comment was meant to say that for an accurate TMI burn you need a guidance cutoff at a precise delta-V which cannot be guaranteed with a burn to depletion. If your margins are healthy, you would invariably overburn by using up all propellant and missing the Mars flyby by a large margin.

People should stop contemplating such PR stunts and just be happy if the launch vehicle makes the planned orbit and deploys its primary payload successfully, IMHO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/29/2013 11:19 am
CASSIOPE's going to Mars? :o

Let's keep this thread on this mission guys.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 08/29/2013 11:26 am
CASSIOPE's going to Mars? :o

Let's keep this thread on this mission guys.

Nope, someone is speculating whether the empty second stage is capable of being sent on a Martian fly-by trajectory.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 08/29/2013 01:25 pm
CASSIOPE has near-polar orbit; and it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.
An upper stage restart is needed for maximum performance to LEO, but it is not always necessary for lighter payloads, depending on orbit.  CASSIOPE is a very light payload for this rocket.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 08/29/2013 02:09 pm
CASSIOPE's going to Mars? :o

Let's keep this thread on this mission guys.

someone was mistaken, and thought this was the party thread  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/29/2013 02:30 pm
CASSIOPE has near-polar orbit; and it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.
An upper stage restart is needed for maximum performance to LEO, but it is not always necessary for lighter payloads, depending on orbit.  CASSIOPE is a very light payload for this rocket.

 - Ed Kyle
This depends more on the orbit desired than the weight.  The heaviest payloads ever orbited, the Apollo missions, did not use a restart to get into LEO.  This was OK since they used *very* low LEO orbits, stable for only a day or so IIRC.  This in turn was OK since within a few hours they would either go to the moon or return home.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/29/2013 02:33 pm
I think that WDR was scheduled today. Guess we will see if SpaceX offers up a picture. Want to get my first glimpse of the 9V1.1 on the pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 08/29/2013 03:13 pm
I think that WDR was scheduled today. Guess we will see if SpaceX offers up a picture. Want to get my first glimpse of the 9V1.1 on the pad.

Is this going to be a week-by-week "secret-timeline" slip?  I guess the USAF wants that vehicle pretty badly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/29/2013 03:14 pm
[...] it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.
Mathematically, it's *always* possible to go from any point in any orbit to any future target with just one burn.  In fact, there is an infinity of such burns, getting there in one day, two days, one month, two months, etc.

Of course most of these will require an impractically large delta-V, for example if you start by heading in the wrong direction.  Others have practical disadvantages such as passing through planets. 

That being said, TLI from a polar orbit seems very little different from TLI from an equatorial orbit.  In either case, you want to fire when you are roughly opposite to the moon, changing your orbit to an ellipse with the perigee still near earth but the apogee where the moon will be when you get there.  The delta-v needed should be very similar.

Going to Mars takes a little more care.  First you need a dawn-dusk polar orbit.  Then your orbital velocity and the earth's velocity around the sun add directly at some point in your orbit, making it just about as good as any other parking orbit.  Of course you still have the problem that if you are not in a good Mars launch window, the delta-V required will be very high.  But since Maven is launching to Mars in just a month or two, we are quite close to the minimum delta-v needed.

Overall, the main disadvantage of a polar parking orbit would seem to be that it requires more delta-V in the first place, since the launch can't take advantage of earth's rotation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/29/2013 03:18 pm
CASSIOPE has near-polar orbit; and it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.
An upper stage restart is needed for maximum performance to LEO, but it is not always necessary for lighter payloads, depending on orbit.  CASSIOPE is a very light payload for this rocket.

 - Ed Kyle

Upper stage restart for LEO injection seems to be the exception rather than the rule for most LVs. All SpaceX missions so far have used direct injection.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: pippin on 08/29/2013 03:23 pm
All SpaceX F9 missions so far have launched self-propelled spacecraft.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/29/2013 03:26 pm
All SpaceX F9 missions so far have launched self-propelled spacecraft.

Does RazakSat qualify as that, and the various secondary payloads carried on some F9 flights?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: pippin on 08/29/2013 03:30 pm
RazakSat wasn't launched on F9. And the various secondary payloads all had a pretty short design-TTL IIRC. The one secondary payload that was supposed to go to a stable orbit would have required a secondary burn and was lost due to the lack of it (Orbcom)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/29/2013 03:43 pm
As far as the possibility of there being any kind of Mars payload on this flight in concerned, I think the chances of that are essentially zero, for reasons given by a number of previous posters. But if they do a depletion burn to solar orbit, it's possible that those looking for cool pictures of the Earth from a distance might get them from upper stage cameras. If the batteries last long enough, of course.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/29/2013 03:47 pm
Is this going to be a week-by-week "secret-timeline" slip?  I guess the USAF wants that vehicle pretty badly.

Non-sequitur.  I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: tobi453 on 08/29/2013 05:24 pm
My comment was meant to say that for an accurate TMI burn you need a guidance cutoff at a precise delta-V which cannot be guaranteed with a burn to depletion. If your margins are healthy, you would invariably overburn by using up all propellant and missing the Mars flyby by a large margin.

Actually it is possible to do a burn to depletion during TMI if you hava a good guidance system. If you overburn you simply have to adjust your trajectory by pointing the thrust vector of your engine in a different direction. That way you will arrive at mars faster. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/29/2013 05:31 pm

Actually it is possible to do a burn to depletion during TMI if you hava a good guidance system. If you overburn you simply have to adjust your trajectory by pointing the thrust vector of your engine in a different direction. That way you will arrive at mars faster. ;)


Not really, it isn't because the time of depletion is unknown.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: smoliarm on 08/29/2013 05:33 pm
[...] it seems to me it's impossible to do TLI from polar orbit with one burn - just like it's impossible for TMI.
Mathematically, it's *always* possible to go from any point in any orbit to any future target with just one burn.  In fact, there is an infinity of such burns, getting there in one day, two days, one month, two months, etc.

Of course most of these will require an impractically large delta-V, for example if you start by heading in the wrong direction.  Others have practical disadvantages such as passing through planets. 

That being said, TLI from a polar orbit seems very little different from TLI from an equatorial orbit.  In either case, you want to fire when you are roughly opposite to the moon, changing your orbit to an ellipse with the perigee still near earth but the apogee where the moon will be when you get there.  The delta-v needed should be very similar.

Going to Mars takes a little more care.  First you need a dawn-dusk polar orbit.  Then your orbital velocity and the earth's velocity around the sun add directly at some point in your orbit, making it just about as good as any other parking orbit.  Of course you still have the problem that if you are not in a good Mars launch window, the delta-V required will be very high.  But since Maven is launching to Mars in just a month or two, we are quite close to the minimum delta-v needed.

Overall, the main disadvantage of a polar parking orbit would seem to be that it requires more delta-V in the first place, since the launch can't take advantage of earth's rotation.

Thanks a lot for clarification! Indeed, I forgot a lot of Orbital Mechanics.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Arthree on 08/29/2013 06:08 pm

Actually it is possible to do a burn to depletion during TMI if you hava a good guidance system. If you overburn you simply have to adjust your trajectory by pointing the thrust vector of your engine in a different direction. That way you will arrive at mars faster. ;)


Not really, it isn't because the time of depletion is unknown.

Yes really, the time of depletion is irrelevant as long as it comes after a transfer orbit that intercepts Mars is achieved.  After that, you can just burn in a direction that maintains the intercept until depletion.

Anyways, a TMI burn is not only off topic but way past the point of being impossible for various reasons already posted.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: tobi453 on 08/29/2013 06:11 pm

Actually it is possible to do a burn to depletion during TMI if you hava a good guidance system. If you overburn you simply have to adjust your trajectory by pointing the thrust vector of your engine in a different direction. That way you will arrive at mars faster. ;)


Not really, it isn't because the time of depletion is unknown.

You can fly a trajectory where it doesnt matter where you cut off as your are changing the trajectory/thrust vector acording to your speed increase.

Just look at military rockets. ;) They chase a moving target and they still hit. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/29/2013 06:21 pm
According to Robotbeat, the 9v1.1 was verticle today.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/29/2013 06:25 pm
Something tells me there is more to this "blackout" than just customer satisfaction. Can't put a finger on it though.......
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/29/2013 06:34 pm
Something tells me there is more to this "blackout" than just customer satisfaction. Can't put a finger on it though.......
The less coverage, the less negative fallout if they fail. And this is a very risky mission, what with being the first F9 v1.1 flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 08/29/2013 06:44 pm
No more riskier than the Falcon 1 Flight 4 launch. They launched that mission live, had some assembly pics and they betted the farm on that one. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: malu5531 on 08/29/2013 06:50 pm

The C3 for Mars flyby if we're talking about departure on September 9th is about 53 km2/s2, or as "low" as C3=18 towards the end of October.  It might be an empty stage but I doubt it can give itself that much of a boost.

Source: Trajectory Optimization Tool. (http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5418)

I have now concluded a TMI will not be possible.

I've never used/known about C3, but after some googling and updating my calculations, the delta-v necessary for TMI from a 300x300 orbit using C3=53 km2/s2 (TMI on September 9), is 5403 m/s. Available Delta-v in LEO is 3731 m/s, 2248 m/s is used to lift apogee to 300x1500 for payload, then an additional 3155 m/s would be needed for TMI (next orbit), but there is only remaining fuel for 1483 m/s => TMI is not possible, so I guess I must put this idea to rest.. :/

However, my calculations show escape trajectory with C3 < 11 km2/s2 might be possible.
(Calculations; http://tinyurl.com/CassiopeMars (http://tinyurl.com/CassiopeMars) - disclaimer; IANARS, BOTE, guesstimates, etc)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/29/2013 07:06 pm
Something tells me there is more to this "blackout" than just customer satisfaction. Can't put a finger on it though.......

I'm sure if the WDR is successful they'll put out a press release announcing the activation of the VAFB pad, with a picture of the vehicle that happens to hide anything above 2nd stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/29/2013 07:06 pm
No more riskier than the Falcon 1 Flight 4 launch. They launched that mission live, had some assembly pics and they betted the farm on that one. 
Actually, I'm not sure about that. F1 had lots of test flights beforehand (unsuccessful, but a lot was learned), and flight 3 was nearly successful. Now, SpaceX has already proved they can get a big rocket into space, so they don't have a ton to gain from a lot of publicity right now, but they have plenty to lose.

I'm sure when it's successful (I give it a 80% chance, at least... they have a ton of margin on this flight, so even an engine out /at lift-off/ and another higher up could be survivable), especially if the reentry of the second stage works well, we'll see plenty of footage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/29/2013 07:07 pm
Something tells me there is more to this "blackout" than just customer satisfaction. Can't put a finger on it though.......

I'm sure if the WDR is successful they'll put out a press release announcing the activation of the VAFB pad, with a picture of the vehicle that happens to hide anything above 2nd stage.

WDR is performed with nothing significant above the second stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/29/2013 07:10 pm
Something tells me there is more to this "blackout" than just customer satisfaction. Can't put a finger on it though.......

I'm sure if the WDR is successful they'll put out a press release announcing the activation of the VAFB pad, with a picture of the vehicle that happens to hide anything above 2nd stage.

WDR is performed with nothing significant above the second stage.
Sure, but they'll probably still show pictures without showing that the rocket is "headless." Last time, they cropped out the top of the rocket during the WDR.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/29/2013 07:11 pm
Something tells me there is more to this "blackout" than just customer satisfaction. Can't put a finger on it though.......

I'm sure if the WDR is successful they'll put out a press release announcing the activation of the VAFB pad, with a picture of the vehicle that happens to hide anything above 2nd stage.

WDR is performed with nothing significant above the second stage.

I know. And still, at least two times in the past they hid that part of the vehicle from view.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/29/2013 07:25 pm

You can fly a trajectory where it doesnt matter where you cut off as your are changing the trajectory/thrust vector acording to your speed increase.

Just look at military rockets. ;) They chase a moving target and they still hit. ;)

Not the same analogy nor applicable.  The military missiles are still thrusting and have excess energy.   Doesn't work for orbital transfers where you don't know what your actual energy gain will be
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/29/2013 07:29 pm
My comment was meant to say that for an accurate TMI burn you need a guidance cutoff at a precise delta-V which cannot be guaranteed with a burn to depletion. If your margins are healthy, you would invariably overburn by using up all propellant and missing the Mars flyby by a large margin.

Actually it is possible to do a burn to depletion during TMI if you hava a good guidance system. If you overburn you simply have to adjust your trajectory by pointing the thrust vector of your engine in a different direction. That way you will arrive at mars faster. ;)



yup - you simply no longer will be doing a "minimum energy" transfer.

But, I vote for a GTO "WDR" as the likely intent.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Tass on 08/29/2013 07:39 pm
No more riskier than the Falcon 1 Flight 4 launch. They launched that mission live, had some assembly pics and they betted the farm on that one. 

Therefore they had nothing to lose. Had that failed they would have been out, and wouldn't have cared about bad publicity.

This one is risky, but they'll still be in business if it fails.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Paul Howard on 08/29/2013 08:57 pm
I notice Chris edited the opening post on the update thread about two hours ago from NET 9-10 September, to "mid-September".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Andy USA on 08/29/2013 09:12 pm
Members have already been warned, this is NOT a Mars trajectory thread, this is a thread about the Cassiope mission. You will lose your posts if you are not on topic.

I notice Chris edited the opening post on the update thread about two hours ago from NET 9-10 September, to "mid-September".

He'll be adjusting title threads from L2 information.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/29/2013 09:32 pm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

"As the Delta IV rises into clear blue skies, also visible just down the hill and to the right is SpaceX's Falcon 9 launch vehicle on the pad at SLC-4E."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/29/2013 09:38 pm
That's a great find!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: GBpatsfan on 08/29/2013 10:02 pm
Aha!!!! It actually exists!  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: uko on 08/29/2013 10:05 pm
Yeah! Someone must have ta ken better pics from that nice vantage point.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/29/2013 10:08 pm
I think this vid may show it directly in front of the Delta, but it's also too fuzzy to make anything out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5hWrDbhnoI
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aero on 08/29/2013 10:44 pm
It is fuzzy. If someone tried, I could be convinced that I'm seeing oxygen boil-off in the fuzz.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/29/2013 10:54 pm
There doesn't appear to be anything on top of the second stage as the T/E is taller than the rocket. Which is exactly what you would expect for WDR.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/29/2013 11:02 pm
There doesn't appear to be anything on top of the second stage as the T/E is taller than the rocket. Which is exactly what you would expect for WDR.
Or a dry dress rehearsal.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/29/2013 11:04 pm
Indeed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: QuantumG on 08/30/2013 03:26 am
First stage separation happens around 61 miles (100 km).

Whether you need an additional license for reentry has more to do with how much time has passed from launch.. for example, they needed one for Dragon because it was days later. They'd need one for the second stage, if they thought anything significant was going to reach the ground, because it would at least be hours.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/30/2013 04:04 am
I must have accidentally said second stage instead of first. Sorry about that!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 08/30/2013 05:41 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

The Delta 4 Heavy rises from the pad. But see what the men in uniform are looking at. Anybody here noticed that detail?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/30/2013 05:45 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

The Delta 4 Heavy rises from the pad. But see what the men in uniform are looking at. Anybody here noticed that detail?

Already noted in the previous page in this thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1090049#msg1090049
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 08/30/2013 05:58 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

The Delta 4 Heavy rises from the pad. But see what the men in uniform are looking at. Anybody here noticed that detail?

I checked with the photographer to see if he might have a closer shot of the SpaceX pad and that was the best one he had.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 08/30/2013 06:47 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

The Delta 4 Heavy rises from the pad. But see what the men in uniform are looking at. Anybody here noticed that detail?

Already noted in the previous page in this thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1090049#msg1090049

I noticed the Falcon on the pad. Really a great find. But I specifically referred to the photo where the men in uniform look at the Falcon instead of the rising Delta. I don't see that in this thread before
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: malu5531 on 08/30/2013 07:15 am
I noticed the Falcon on the pad. Really a great find. But I specifically referred to the photo where the men in uniform look at the Falcon instead of the rising Delta. I don't see that in this thread before

Yes, I noticed that too. They seem to be more excited about the Falcon doing a WDR / Dry rehearsal than a ascending Delta IV heavy. Some would say they have their priorities right. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/30/2013 07:29 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

The Delta 4 Heavy rises from the pad. But see what the men in uniform are looking at. Anybody here noticed that detail?

Already noted in the previous page in this thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1090049#msg1090049

I noticed the Falcon on the pad. Really a great find. But I specifically referred to the photo where the men in uniform look at the Falcon instead of the rising Delta. I don't see that in this thread before

I think you are misinterpreting the photo. Or do you really think that a rocket is launching right in front of them, but instead they are looking at pad with no activity?  ::) The picture is much more of a telephoto capture than it looks, which tweaks the perspective.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 08/30/2013 07:31 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcatphotography1/9625736164/

The Delta 4 Heavy rises from the pad. But see what the men in uniform are looking at. Anybody here noticed that detail?

Already noted in the previous page in this thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31429.msg1090049#msg1090049

I noticed the Falcon on the pad. Really a great find. But I specifically referred to the photo where the men in uniform look at the Falcon instead of the rising Delta. I don't see that in this thread before

I think you are misinterpreting the photo. Or do you really think that a rocket is launching right in front of them, but instead they are looking at pad with no activity?  ::) The picture is much more of a telephoto capture than it looks, which tweaks the perspective.

Was just about to respond and say that. The focal length is very wide here so its very likely the photo was taken significantly farther back and the angle between their apparent look angle and the actual look angle is significantly less. Also, they would have been standing there for many minutes already before launch, they would have had plenty of time to look at the SpaceX pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 08/30/2013 07:34 am

I think you are misinterpreting the photo. Or do you really think that a rocket is launching right in front of them, but instead they are looking at pad with no activity?  ::) The picture is much more of a telephoto capture than it looks, which tweaks the perspective.

It's not a matter of interpretation or what I believe. It clearly shows them looking at Falcon 9, a very different direction to where the tourists right next to them are looking for the launch. But really I don't mean to interpret much into it. It's just funny. :)

Edit: BTW how far is the pad from their position? I am sure several km. How many seconds since the Delta launched? It may be possible that they missed the launch and the sound had not yet arrived, just a guess.


Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 08/30/2013 08:18 am

I think you are misinterpreting the photo. Or do you really think that a rocket is launching right in front of them, but instead they are looking at pad with no activity?  ::) The picture is much more of a telephoto capture than it looks, which tweaks the perspective.

It's not a matter of interpretation or what I believe. It clearly shows them looking at Falcon 9, a very different direction to where the tourists right next to them are looking for the launch. But really I don't mean to interpret much into it. It's just funny. :)

It clearly shows no such thing. If you think so, you should save the interpretation of pictures to others. They are facing away from us, in a direction that due to the telescopic foreshortening if perspective is difficult to determine.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/30/2013 08:29 am
What Lars_J said.

Can we move on, please?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/30/2013 08:44 am
Wow, I wondered how long it would take for people to start talking about where the men in uniform were looking at. You people really have a gift for overanalyzing everything.

Also, what Lars_J and mlindner said.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: pippin on 08/30/2013 10:16 am
Reentry license? There's a license for everything sheesh! But isn't the First stage reentering the atmosphere too?

The first stage is coming down anyway. With good chances that it's in one piece.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: MP99 on 08/30/2013 02:01 pm
Reentry license? There's a license for everything sheesh! But isn't the First stage reentering the atmosphere too?

The first stage is coming down anyway. With good chances that it's in one piece.

I believe the safety assumption would generally be that the stage breaks up before it hits, so any hits will be from smaller fragments (Shuttle [and other?] SRBs excluded).

A stage that stays in one piece, then maybe fails shortly before landing could drop a sizable hunk of metal on anyone unlucky enough to be underneath. That may be seen as a bigger safety / licensing issue? Not sure if that's what you were trying to say?

cheers, Martin

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 08/30/2013 02:57 pm
If you start here:
https://www.google.com/maps?q=vandenberg+afb&hl=en&ll=34.640093,-120.59967&spn=0.032483,0.052314&sll=37.266469,-122.02642&sspn=0.251368,0.41851&t=h&z=15

And plot out the lines of sight, you see that the two pads are visually very close to each other.  It would be very difficult to tell who's looking at what - the lens simply opens up the view.

(Red for Delta, Yellow for F9, cross lines are my interpretation for the terrain (the two cross-creeks).   Red structure on/behind the ridgeline shown in red circle)

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 08/30/2013 03:26 pm
Safety of the first stage coming down is handled in launch licensing not entry licensing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 08/30/2013 04:36 pm
Safety of the first stage coming down is handled in launch licensing not entry licensing.
I presume you mean in the current setup, where the 1st stage lands downrange? For a return-to-launchpad situation, I would imagine that another form of licensing is required?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: newpylong on 08/30/2013 05:07 pm
You can bet they don't give two sh*ts about the Falcon 9 doing a WDR...


I noticed the Falcon on the pad. Really a great find. But I specifically referred to the photo where the men in uniform look at the Falcon instead of the rising Delta. I don't see that in this thread before

Yes, I noticed that too. They seem to be more excited about the Falcon doing a WDR / Dry rehearsal than a ascending Delta IV heavy. Some would say they have their priorities right. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/30/2013 07:21 pm
You can bet they don't give two sh*ts about the Falcon 9 doing a WDR

They definitely seem to be looking at SLC-6W rather than the ascending Delta-IVH.  I know that SpaceX has picked up a few DoD contracts; maybe their job was to scope out the pad's security issues or something?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 08/30/2013 07:41 pm
You can bet they don't give two sh*ts about the Falcon 9 doing a WDR

They definitely seem to be looking at SLC-6W rather than the ascending Delta-IVH.  I know that SpaceX has picked up a few DoD contracts; maybe their job was to scope out the pad's security issues or something?

The Delta had launched a few seconds before. Quite possible that the sound had not reached that position and they just have missed the launch.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 08/30/2013 07:58 pm
You can bet they don't give two sh*ts about the Falcon 9 doing a WDR

They definitely seem to be looking at SLC-6W rather than the ascending Delta-IVH.  I know that SpaceX has picked up a few DoD contracts; maybe their job was to scope out the pad's security issues or something?

The Delta had launched a few seconds before. Quite possible that the sound had not reached that position and they just have missed the launch.



Can we stop this line of discussion? They're military, they're here to observe the launch, they would have been standing there for 10+ minutes if not longer already if they wanted to look, the angles are close together so its impossible to determine the look angles. Occam's razor says they're looking at the D4H launch. End.

You guys are using the same reasoning the Moon landing hoaxers use to say the shadows pointing in different directions on the moon show evidence of a stage light.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: pippin on 08/30/2013 08:07 pm
underneath. That may be seen as a bigger safety / licensing issue? Not sure if that's what you were trying to say?

What Antares said above. First stage coming down is part of normal launch/range safety, it makes absolutely no sense to have a separate process for that, especially since you track the range where it does come down and you have termination systems.

Complete flyback might be a different animal but I'd assume they'd handle that as part of the launch planning, too.

But an upper stage returning can essentially come down anywhere and any time if things seriously go wrong, that's an entirely different animal.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: myersd97 on 08/31/2013 08:13 am
Not to belabor the point, but If it helps, I was about 30 feet behind them, and they were definitely looking at the Delta. 

Also, to further accentuate the point regarding the distance and telephoto perspective, it is actually further than the maps upthread show.  You have to draw the lines all the way back across Ocean Ave onto Northbase, and then up on New Mexico/New Beach Road.  We were very close to the gravel pit.  Relative distance to the Delta pad is about 11 miles.

One last note, the Falcon has remained elevated since that day--looks like no payload still, but definitely elevated.  Was on southbase today and confirmed that.   Awesome to see it that close.   
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 08/31/2013 08:28 am
@myersd97:
thanks for the news on F9 ! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/31/2013 10:26 am
Good morning, SLC-4E (from a person on twitter)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Silmfeanor on 08/31/2013 10:33 am
Good morning, SLC-4E
Wooohoooo, thanks for the picture!
That's gonna be a great rocket with fairing added. Skinny looking!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 08/31/2013 10:44 am
Good morning, SLC-4E

What's the source of this photo?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: uko on 08/31/2013 11:17 am
Thanks! Wow! Cool! Finally! I love it!

Looks like a frame from an official camera.. "EAST HILL TOP" embedded in the corner.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 08/31/2013 11:31 am
Interesting I still don't see any lightning towers. Is it not an issue because of the mountains?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: spectre9 on 08/31/2013 11:34 am
Looks like there was a short break in the legendary VAFB fog.

Can really see how tall it is now and that's without the payload.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jamsta on 08/31/2013 11:39 am
Good morning, SLC-4E

That's real purty! Love the fog.

Is that a bi-directional flame tunnel in the foreground?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 08/31/2013 11:52 am
Interesting I still don't see any lightning towers. Is it not an issue because of the mountains?

Maybe also because of the rarity of lighting storms in the area.  On the rare occasions when a storm is coming in, they can just roll the vehicle back into the hangar.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/31/2013 12:59 pm
Good to see it at last. Don't see any "gripper arms" at the top of the T/E, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: corrodedNut on 08/31/2013 01:05 pm
Is that a bi-directional flame tunnel in the foreground?

The pit on the right is for the hydraulic lifter, the flame trench exit is to the left.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: corrodedNut on 08/31/2013 01:12 pm
Good to see it at last. Don't see any "gripper arms" at the top of the T/E, though.

It seems that they have forgone the the "gripper arms" in favor of a system that latches directly to the vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Elvis in Space on 08/31/2013 01:30 pm
Interesting I still don't see any lightning towers. Is it not an issue because of the mountains?

Keep in mind that the weather in SoCal is deadly dull compared to Florida. I remember it rained briefly one night in July while I was visiting and that made the news next morning as only the fourth time in 25 years such a thing had happened.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PerW on 08/31/2013 01:39 pm
No legs?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Silmfeanor on 08/31/2013 01:42 pm
No legs?
This was known a long time ago...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/31/2013 02:10 pm
Good to see it at last. Don't see any "gripper arms" at the top of the T/E, though.

It seems that they have forgone the the "gripper arms" in favor of a system that latches directly to the vehicle.

They are there, just a different design
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 08/31/2013 04:04 pm
Good to see it at last. Don't see any "gripper arms" at the top of the T/E, though.

It seems that they have forgone the the "gripper arms" in favor of a system that latches directly to the vehicle.

They are there, just a different design

Yeah, I see them now, right at the top of the vehicle, edge on to the viewpoint.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/31/2013 07:59 pm
So, where is CASSIOPE? Is it still being processed somewhere or have MDA just asked that it not be integrated until after all the pad tests of the launch vehicle are complete?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 08/31/2013 08:10 pm
WDR is done without the payload.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/31/2013 08:28 pm
WDR is done without the payload.

Nonetheless, my question remains.  It is currently back at the HIF or would it be elsewhere?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 08/31/2013 08:30 pm
It has been at the launch site for quite awhile.  It is in one of threads
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/01/2013 08:12 pm
The "Ares I was skinny too" posts - well most of them - have been moved into the F9 v1.1 thread.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31734.1155
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 09/01/2013 10:48 pm
Good morning, SLC-4E (from a person on twitter)

Great to get my long weekend wish to see the Falcon 9 V1.1! I'm staying positive knowing that this is a test launch and hoping for the best. As padrat said on another thread a lot is riding on this launch. Let's hope that things stay "nominal".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: beancounter on 09/02/2013 05:11 am
Good morning, SLC-4E (from a person on twitter)

Great to get my long weekend wish to see the Falcon 9 V1.1! I'm staying positive knowing that this is a test launch and hoping for the best. As padrat said on another thread a lot is riding on this launch. Let's hope that things stay "nominal".
I bet the customer doesn't think it's a 'test' launch!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 09/02/2013 05:16 am
Good morning, SLC-4E (from a person on twitter)

Great to get my long weekend wish to see the Falcon 9 V1.1! I'm staying positive knowing that this is a test launch and hoping for the best. As padrat said on another thread a lot is riding on this launch. Let's hope that things stay "nominal".
I bet the customer doesn't think it's a 'test' launch!

The customer knows far better than any of us do exactly what this launch is.  They know all the publicly-available information we know, plus details that aren't public.

The speculation is that they are paying far below the usual Falcon 9 rate for this flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/02/2013 05:17 am
Presumably, they're paying around $10 million or whatever SpaceX used to charge for Falcon 1 launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 09/02/2013 05:59 am
Given the choice between sending a payload in a Falcon 1 with a 60% failure rate, or the successor to the V1.0 which had a 100% primary mission success rate, I would choose the latter.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 09/02/2013 11:09 am
Given the choice between sending a payload in a Falcon 1 with a 60% failure rate, or the successor to the V1.0 which had a 100% primary mission success rate, I would choose the latter.

You underestimate how different v1.1 is to v1.0. Success of v1.0 doesn't have that much bearing on it, just as the initial failures of Falcon 1 don't have much of a bearing on the expected reliability once the wrinkles have been ironed out on the vehicle.

Then again, Cassiope would have needed Falcon 1e, also an unflown vehicle - but a less complex one than F9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jcc on 09/02/2013 12:40 pm
Given the choice between sending a payload in a Falcon 1 with a 60% failure rate, or the successor to the V1.0 which had a 100% primary mission success rate, I would choose the latter.

You underestimate how different v1.1 is to v1.0. Success of v1.0 doesn't have that much bearing on it, just as the initial failures of Falcon 1 don't have much of a bearing on the expected reliability once the wrinkles have been ironed out on the vehicle.

Then again, Cassiope would have needed Falcon 1e, also an unflown vehicle - but a less complex one than F9.

F9v1.1 still has engine out capability, lacking that the v1.0 would have had an 80% primary mission success rate instead of 100%.

The rest of the potential advantages are harder to quantify, unless you have intimate knowledge of the design choices and test procedures of both versions. Presumably, NASA has that knowledge, I don't know how much Spacex shares with other customers.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 09/02/2013 12:55 pm
Given the choice between sending a payload in a Falcon 1 with a 60% failure rate, or the successor to the V1.0 which had a 100% primary mission success rate, I would choose the latter.
You underestimate how different v1.1 is to v1.0. Success of v1.0 doesn't have that much bearing on it, just as the initial failures of Falcon 1 don't have much of a bearing on the expected reliability once the wrinkles have been ironed out on the vehicle.
Then again, Cassiope would have needed Falcon 1e, also an unflown vehicle - but a less complex one than F9.

F9v1.1 still has engine out capability, lacking that the v1.0 would have had an 80% primary mission success rate instead of 100%.
Your logic is only valid if you assume the engine-out that was experienced during F9, flight 4, were to have a similar probability of occuring on a rocket without engine-out capability.
It is next to impossible to validate such an assumption.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jcc on 09/02/2013 03:12 pm
Given the choice between sending a payload in a Falcon 1 with a 60% failure rate, or the successor to the V1.0 which had a 100% primary mission success rate, I would choose the latter.
You underestimate how different v1.1 is to v1.0. Success of v1.0 doesn't have that much bearing on it, just as the initial failures of Falcon 1 don't have much of a bearing on the expected reliability once the wrinkles have been ironed out on the vehicle.
Then again, Cassiope would have needed Falcon 1e, also an unflown vehicle - but a less complex one than F9.

F9v1.1 still has engine out capability, lacking that the v1.0 would have had an 80% primary mission success rate instead of 100%.
Your logic is only valid if you assume the engine-out that was experienced during F9, flight 4, were to have a similar probability of occuring on a rocket without engine-out capability.
It is next to impossible to validate such an assumption.

If you compare it with a completely different vehicle that has a smaller number of engines it may be difficult, but I would challenge your statement that it is next to impossible to validate, because risks are calculated for every launch by insurance companies and apparently by the FAA, so clearly there are methods that are used.

The question at hand is if an F9 with engine out capability is more robust than an F9 without that cability, where losing any one of 9 engines would result in loss of mission. That would clearly be worse, unless the engines are many times more reliable than the average.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SolSystem on 09/03/2013 08:38 pm
They are paying less than $10 million. The launch deal was signed in mid-2005.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/04/2013 01:21 am
If 9/14 is looking solid, then the WDR must be basically done. Wouldn't the hot fire have to be this week to give enough time for data review before the launch?  We should hear something on that soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 09/04/2013 01:32 am
If 9/14 is looking solid, then the WDR must be basically done. Wouldn't the hot fire have to be this week to give enough time for data review before the launch?  We should hear something on that soon.

Yes, hot fire is already scheduled, see L2.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 09/04/2013 03:45 am
Is this new information? They show the CASSIOPE launch as being September 10th according to a NASA mission database. I must assume the MacGregor test is one of the future missions, perhaps Thaicom 6?

http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/spacex-to-conduct-test-as-early-as-wednesday/article_de4ea69c-14eb-11e3-a2af-001a4bcf887a.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 09/04/2013 04:06 am
Is this new information? They show the CASSIOPE launch as being September 10th according to a NASA mission database. I must assume the MacGregor test is one of the future missions, perhaps Thaicom 6?

http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/spacex-to-conduct-test-as-early-as-wednesday/article_de4ea69c-14eb-11e3-a2af-001a4bcf887a.html

This is the wrong place to report McGregor news....see the McGregor thread. As reported there is a strong possibility of Sept. 14th launch with a hotfire this week. If it's on L2, I'd take it to the bank.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PreferToLurk on 09/04/2013 05:07 am
As reported there is a strong possibility of Sept. 14th launch with a hotfire this week. If it's on L2, I'd take it to the bank.

While you are absolutely correct in pointing out that the 10th NET date is no longer accurate, I would only bank on that being the plan and not on a Sept 14th launch.  Still only a NET date and a lot of things could crop up during the hotfire that might need some analysis before moving on.

A launch anytime in September will be a win for SpaceX. IMO

If they go from hotfire to launch without another slip of at least a few days I would be surprised -- happy, but very surprised.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 09/04/2013 02:24 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 09/04/2013 02:40 pm
To answer a question from a previous photo the gripper arms are now clearly visible.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 09/04/2013 03:24 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Silmfeanor on 09/04/2013 03:35 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?
Too big for a thruster, and you would expect more of them placed evenly around the stage.
Not an umbilical - those are at bottom for stage 1.

So, downward looking camera?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 09/04/2013 03:39 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?
Too big and unsymmetrical for a thruster, and you would expect more of them. Not an umbilical - those are at bottom for stage 1.

So, downward looking camera?

Camera makes sense. They certainly need it to do a video of the first stage elegantly reaching the sea surface.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 09/04/2013 03:47 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?
Too big and unsymmetrical for a thruster, and you would expect more of them. Not an umbilical - those are at bottom for stage 1.

So, downward looking camera?

Camera makes sense. They certainly need it to do a video of the first stage elegantly reaching the sea surface.

Way too large for a camera...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 09/04/2013 03:49 pm
Highly likely it's a GOX vent. There's also one at the top of the RP-1 tank, presumably a He pressurization vent.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mrmandias on 09/04/2013 04:27 pm
Is this new information? They show the CASSIOPE launch as being September 10th according to a NASA mission database. I must assume the MacGregor test is one of the future missions, perhaps Thaicom 6?

http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/spacex-to-conduct-test-as-early-as-wednesday/article_de4ea69c-14eb-11e3-a2af-001a4bcf887a.html

This is the wrong place to report McGregor news....see the McGregor thread. As reported there is a strong possibility of Sept. 14th launch with a hotfire this week. If it's on L2, I'd take it to the bank.
My speculation--and its speculation only--is that the scheduled hotfire is a second WDR with a hotfire only if the WDR goes acceptably.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/04/2013 04:43 pm
Is this new information? They show the CASSIOPE launch as being September 10th according to a NASA mission database. I must assume the MacGregor test is one of the future missions, perhaps Thaicom 6?

http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/spacex-to-conduct-test-as-early-as-wednesday/article_de4ea69c-14eb-11e3-a2af-001a4bcf887a.html

This is the wrong place to report McGregor news....see the McGregor thread. As reported there is a strong possibility of Sept. 14th launch with a hotfire this week. If it's on L2, I'd take it to the bank.
My speculation--and its speculation only--is that the scheduled hotfire is a second WDR with a hotfire only if the WDR goes acceptably.
Isn't that true for any hotfire?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 09/04/2013 05:35 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?

Another guess - something to do with landing support?
GH didn't have any sensors (cameras/laser/radar) sticking out though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: sublimemarsupial on 09/04/2013 05:42 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?

Propulsive vents for use as ullage thrusters for boostback/velocity reduction burns?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lobo on 09/04/2013 05:44 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

I'm assuming there will be a different erector for FH?  I'm not seeing how an outboard core would fit on this, but maybe it's just a bad angle.
But I'm assuming there's no reason they can't have a couple of erectors on hand, depending on what LV is being processed for launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/04/2013 05:50 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

I'm assuming there will be a different erector for FH?  I'm not seeing how an outboard core would fit on this, but maybe it's just a bad angle.
But I'm assuming there's no reason they can't have a couple of erectors on hand, depending on what LV is being processed for launch.
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. While I wouldn't put it past them to end up using a different erector for the Heavy, this does appear to be the same erector they have shown falcon heavy using in cgi.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/04/2013 06:06 pm
This *is* the FH strongback/erector.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/04/2013 06:48 pm

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?

A fairing for the stage sep pushoff rods.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lobo on 09/04/2013 07:02 pm
Elon's new tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/375156462542000128/photo/1

The first official picture of F9R on the transporter/erector(?).

I'm assuming there will be a different erector for FH?  I'm not seeing how an outboard core would fit on this, but maybe it's just a bad angle.
But I'm assuming there's no reason they can't have a couple of erectors on hand, depending on what LV is being processed for launch.
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. While I wouldn't put it past them to end up using a different erector for the Heavy, this does appear to be the same erector they have shown falcon heavy using in cgi.

Ahhh..ok.  I couldn't tell that bend at the base is set off from the core that far.  It looks like it's right next to it at that picture without room for an outboard booster.  The other pics clarify that.  THanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 09/04/2013 07:35 pm

What is the molded opening at the bottom of the top of the first stage. A cold gas thruster?

A fairing for the stage sep pushoff rods.

No, those are at the top of the interstage, not bottom.

There are some cold gas thruster fairings visible on the interstage, but I'm not sure if that's what you were looking at.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 09/04/2013 08:07 pm
I think the detail is this one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: corrodedNut on 09/04/2013 08:28 pm
Let's play fill-in-the-blank:

A- Upper stage "combo" umbilical
B- 1st stage/interstage umbilical
C- 1st stage GOX vent
D- 1st stage He vent
E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters? Antennas?
F- 1st stage-2nd stage separation system fairings (3)
G- 1st stage cold gas thrusters?

Those are my guesses, feel free to make your own.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/04/2013 09:55 pm

E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters

They would be on the base of the stage, inside the interstage
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 09/04/2013 10:02 pm

E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters

They would be on the base of the stage, inside the interstage

They are in fairings on the outer surface of the interstage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/04/2013 10:05 pm
^^^  ???

How can cold gas thrusters for the 2nd stage be on the outside of the interstage, which remains attached to the first stage?

Or did you mean the 1st stage cold gas thrusters?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: pippin on 09/04/2013 10:05 pm
That's the 1st stage ones, right?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 09/04/2013 10:05 pm

E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters

They would be on the base of the stage, inside the interstage

They are in fairings on the outer surface of the interstage.

I don't think you're talking about the same thing, in this case stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 09/04/2013 10:25 pm
Is this new information? They show the CASSIOPE launch as being September 10th according to a NASA mission database. I must assume the MacGregor test is one of the future missions, perhaps Thaicom 6?

http://www.wacotrib.com/blogs/joe_science/spacex-to-conduct-test-as-early-as-wednesday/article_de4ea69c-14eb-11e3-a2af-001a4bcf887a.html

This is the wrong place to report McGregor news....see the McGregor thread. As reported there is a strong possibility of Sept. 14th launch with a hotfire this week. If it's on L2, I'd take it to the bank.
My speculation--and its speculation only--is that the scheduled hotfire is a second WDR with a hotfire only if the WDR goes acceptably.

Wednesdays seem to be the "gate days" for the WbW delay... any information on launch dates yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 09/04/2013 11:37 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th

http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 09/04/2013 11:45 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th

http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php

Interesting that they are listing it;  it is still dependent on how the hot fire test goes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: RocketmanUS on 09/05/2013 12:00 am
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th

http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php
Thanks for the update.

Well that means I'll only need one back of popcorn next Tuesday.
To bad they will not be launching on Tuesday.

Might need a poll for when they might launch this year.
Would at least be fun to see who would come the closest and time of day.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: corrodedNut on 09/05/2013 12:09 am

E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters

They would be on the base of the stage, inside the interstage

I don't know what "E" are. It seems strange to have thrusters surface mounted to the 2nd stage tanks, and not the aft bulkhead as Jim says. There appear to be four, equally spaced around the circumference of the stage, which is why I suggest they could be antennas. They look a little big for antennas, however. Whatever "G" are, they seem to be located the same longitudinally as "E", but lower down on the interstage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 09/05/2013 12:55 am
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th

http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php

Interesting that they are listing it;  it is still dependent on how the hot fire test goes.

When is HF scheduled?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jcc on 09/05/2013 01:00 am

E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters

They would be on the base of the stage, inside the interstage

I don't know what "E" are. It seems strange to have thrusters surface mounted to the 2nd stage tanks, and not the aft bulkhead as Jim says. There appear to be four, equally spaced around the circumference of the stage, which is why I suggest they could be antennas. They look a little big for antennas, however. Whatever "G" are, they seem to be located the same longitudinally as "E", but lower down on the interstage.

Above E could be attachment points for the payload fairing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: tigerade on 09/05/2013 01:26 am

When is HF scheduled?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32667.60
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: rickyramjet on 09/05/2013 01:29 am
Any chance the item(s) circled in red are the hard points for attaching the two side boosters of the Falcon Heavy?  I've attached images from SpaceX Falcon Heavy page.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 09/05/2013 01:50 am

When is HF scheduled?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32667.60

"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you. "
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/05/2013 01:53 am

When is HF scheduled?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32667.60

"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you. "
have to be a member of L2...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: notsorandom on 09/05/2013 02:19 am

When is HF scheduled?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32667.60

"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you. "
have to be a member of L2...
The non-L2 answer would be that the HF is scheduled before the 14th. Likely a few days before the launch so that they have time to go over the results and make any necessary changes. Since it is now being posted by NASA the NET date for launch looks to be the 14th.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 09/05/2013 04:17 am

When is HF scheduled?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32667.60

"An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you. "
have to be a member of L2...
What's LT (besides slightly exclusive)?   I'm from the BBS era, don't really understand forums.  :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason1701 on 09/05/2013 04:30 am
I was talking about first stage / interstage, sorry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 09/05/2013 04:33 am
What's LT (besides slightly exclusive)?

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/l2/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: beancounter on 09/05/2013 06:42 am
What's LT (besides slightly exclusive)?

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/l2/

Yes, well worth it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 09/05/2013 07:56 am
Any chance the item(s) circled in red are the hard points for attaching the two side boosters of the Falcon Heavy?  I've attached images from SpaceX Falcon Heavy page.

If so, then the stage is rotated 90 degrees from its orientation in FH mode.  And that's problematic because the umbilicals are on the side of the TE now, so rotating the stage 90 degrees would put the umbilicals in the wrong direction, facing one of the side boosters.  Also, if they are side booster hard points, there should be some on the opposite side of the core too, but none are visible.  Granted, the picture is taken from a low angle, but still the feature C is large enough to project below the bottom horizon line of the stage, so the one on top should do the same.

On the other hand, no attach points are visible on the side, where they definitely should be clearly visible in this shot if the hard points were there.

Still, I'd guess these are not booster attach points.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 09/05/2013 09:06 am
Any chance the item(s) circled in red are the hard points for attaching the two side boosters of the Falcon Heavy?  I've attached images from SpaceX Falcon Heavy page.

If so, then the stage is rotated 90 degrees from its orientation in FH mode.  And that's problematic because the umbilicals are on the side of the TE now, so rotating the stage 90 degrees would put the umbilicals in the wrong direction, facing one of the side boosters.  Also, if they are side booster hard points, there should be some on the opposite side of the core too, but none are visible.  Granted, the picture is taken from a low angle, but still the feature C is large enough to project below the bottom horizon line of the stage, so the one on top should do the same.

On the other hand, no attach points are visible on the side, where they definitely should be clearly visible in this shot if the hard points were there.

Still, I'd guess these are not booster attach points.

What Chris said.
Also C and D have the same shape (probably they are similar item): being located close to the upper bulkhead of the LOX tank (C) and the upper bulkhead of the RP1 tank (D) they are most probably vents (as described in corrodedNut's post).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dhHopkins on 09/05/2013 12:22 pm
Any chance the item(s) circled in red are the hard points for attaching the two side boosters of the Falcon Heavy?  I've attached images from SpaceX Falcon Heavy page.

If so, then the stage is rotated 90 degrees from its orientation in FH mode.  And that's problematic because the umbilicals are on the side of the TE now, so rotating the stage 90 degrees would put the umbilicals in the wrong direction, facing one of the side boosters.  Also, if they are side booster hard points, there should be some on the opposite side of the core too, but none are visible.  Granted, the picture is taken from a low angle, but still the feature C is large enough to project below the bottom horizon line of the stage, so the one on top should do the same.

On the other hand, no attach points are visible on the side, where they definitely should be clearly visible in this shot if the hard points were there.

Still, I'd guess these are not booster attach points.

What Chris said.
Also C and D have the same shape (probably they are similar item): being located close to the upper bulkhead of the LOX tank (C) and the upper bulkhead of the RP1 tank (D) they are most probably vents (as described in corrodedNut's post).

Hey, the whole thing looks large, but I see what could be an opening on the bottom - could that be a port for a camera.  Could this be the much anticipated source of that fantastic view of the 1st stage water landing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cambrianera on 09/05/2013 12:44 pm
A vent need an opening.
Doubt SpaceX is putting two cameras on the same side but....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 09/05/2013 01:44 pm
A vent need an opening.
Doubt SpaceX is putting two cameras on the same side but....
They might if one camera (the one on the U/S) is not going to be present when the core tries to re-enter and splash down under propulsion.

Another possibility is that it is a sensor for the descent and slow-down.  The main navigational sensors will, again, by on the upper stage.  Maybe these are sensors specifically for the descent and (eventual) landing, placed at the top of the stage due to some weight distribution issue.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 09/05/2013 02:23 pm
Any chance the item(s) circled in red are the hard points for attaching the two side boosters of the Falcon Heavy?  I've attached images from SpaceX Falcon Heavy page.

If so, then the stage is rotated 90 degrees from its orientation in FH mode.  And that's problematic because the umbilicals are on the side of the TE now, so rotating the stage 90 degrees would put the umbilicals in the wrong direction, facing one of the side boosters.  Also, if they are side booster hard points, there should be some on the opposite side of the core too, but none are visible.  Granted, the picture is taken from a low angle, but still the feature C is large enough to project below the bottom horizon line of the stage, so the one on top should do the same.

On the other hand, no attach points are visible on the side, where they definitely should be clearly visible in this shot if the hard points were there.

Still, I'd guess these are not booster attach points.

What Chris said.
Also C and D have the same shape (probably they are similar item): being located close to the upper bulkhead of the LOX tank (C) and the upper bulkhead of the RP1 tank (D) they are most probably vents (as described in corrodedNut's post).

Hey, the whole thing looks large, but I see what could be an opening on the bottom - could that be a port for a camera.  Could this be the much anticipated source of that fantastic view of the 1st stage water landing?

That feature is too large, modern cameras need less than an inch hole, that feature is several inches large.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kevin-rf on 09/05/2013 02:46 pm
That feature is too large, modern cameras need less than an inch hole, that feature is several inches large.

Depends on the lens and chip you use. Besides you always want a housing  window larger than the lense you use. Especially if it is a fish eye.

Haven't eagle eye'd NSFer's spotted the camera mount on previous Falcons. They where not small.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 09/05/2013 03:11 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th
http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php

According to the webpage above, the launch forecasts "reflect dates published elsewhere". So there must be another public publication of the 14th Sept somewhere, right? The question is: where?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 09/05/2013 03:34 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th
http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php

According to the webpage above, the launch forecasts "reflect dates published elsewhere". So there must be another public publication of the 14th Sept somewhere, right? The question is: where?

L2? It's technically public, in the government sense.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AnalogMan on 09/05/2013 03:50 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th
http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php (http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php)

According to the webpage above, the launch forecasts "reflect dates published elsewhere". So there must be another public publication of the 14th Sept somewhere, right? The question is: where?

One of GSFC's regular sources is spaceflightnow.com - they updated their launch schedule a couple of days ago to the present launch date & window times.

(NasaSpaceflight.com is also used as a source for launch updates occasionally - but only from published news articles though, not the forum.)

The GFSC update is not shown in their "change log" yet - this normally gives the source used (see http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/change_log.php).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/05/2013 03:51 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th

http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php

That is not "NASA".  That is a group who supports the NASA TDRSS and Ground network.  They use all available sources to update their schedule and hence it should not be used as a source document.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 09/05/2013 09:07 pm
Based on the 14th launch date, do we have a potential hotfire date yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/05/2013 09:16 pm
Based on the 14th launch date, do we have a potential hotfire date yet?
yes, in L2. Nothing else public, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 09/05/2013 09:31 pm
NASA has posted the new CASSIOPE launch date of the 14th

http://msdb.gsfc.nasa.gov/launches.php

That is not "NASA".  That is a group who supports the NASA TDRSS and Ground network.  They use all available sources to update their schedule and hence it should not be used as a source document.

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. Looks like there are sources, and there are "sources". :)

The 14th date is now appearing on other sites such as Cornell University (CUSat), University of Calgary, & the Waco Tribune, but nothing official so far.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Salo on 09/05/2013 10:40 pm
http://mertensiana.phys.ucalgary.ca/

Sept 4, 2013: The Cassiope launch date has been moved to September 14, 2013 aboard the SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket. The launch will take place from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, making it the first spacecraft to launch from this new SpaceX facility. Watch for continued updates as this milestone approaches!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Salo on 09/05/2013 10:56 pm
The 14th date is now appearing on other sites such as Cornell University (CUSat), University of Calgary, & the Waco Tribune, but nothing official so far.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2013/09/cusat-set-launch-sept-14-making-gps-precise
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/05/2013 11:02 pm
I posted the 14th on the update thread back on the 3rd after holding in L2 at source requests since the 1st.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32685.0

Stop only reading this thread. This is only the discussion thread.

Sorry if that sounds a bit p--sy, but when you get five people sending you messages - today - saying "OMG. Chris! It's now the 14th according to blah.blah.com!" It gets a bit much for my tired head ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Salo on 09/05/2013 11:12 pm
http://spacegrant.colorado.edu/dande-news
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Salo on 09/06/2013 10:40 am
USU Get Away Special Team Set to Monitor Solar Effects on Satellites (http://www.usu.edu/ust/index.cfm?article=52602)
 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/06/2013 06:21 pm
Let's play fill-in-the-blank:

A- Upper stage "combo" umbilical
B- 1st stage/interstage umbilical
C- 1st stage GOX vent
D- 1st stage He vent
E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters? Antennas?
F- 1st stage-2nd stage separation system fairings (3)
G- 1st stage cold gas thrusters?

Those are my guesses, feel free to make your own.

Radar?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Silmfeanor on 09/06/2013 08:56 pm
http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/37094musk-says-spacex-being-%E2%80%9Cextremely-paranoid%E2%80%9D-as-it-readies-for-falcon-9%E2%80%99s (http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/37094musk-says-spacex-being-%E2%80%9Cextremely-paranoid%E2%80%9D-as-it-readies-for-falcon-9%E2%80%99s)

relevant for this - some quotes:

Quote
“Cassiope paid a tiny fraction of the price for the right to be on the demonstration flight. This is essentially a development flight for the rocket. It’s not an operational flight,” Musk said.

“Cassiope is a very small satellite. It takes up just a tiny fraction of the volume of the fairing. They paid, I think, maybe 20 percent of the normal price of the mission,” he added.

Quote
“Just before we hit the ocean, we’re going to relight the engine and see if we can mitigate the landing velocity to the point where the stage could potentially be recovered, but I give this maybe a 10 percent chance of success,” Musk said.

So, what was suspected about CASSIOPE not paying full price is validated. Also, rightfully downplaying the chance of total relight-grasshopper like touchdown.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: bioelectromechanic on 09/07/2013 10:02 am
What's the launch window for Cassiope? Hopefully it's not an instantaneous one like for CRS flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 09/07/2013 01:20 pm
What's the launch window for Cassiope? Hopefully it's not an instantaneous one like for CRS flights.

SpaceFlightNow has 1600-1800 GMT (12-2 p.m. EDT; 9-11 a.m. PDT)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 09/07/2013 07:17 pm
Let's play fill-in-the-blank:

A- Upper stage "combo" umbilical
B- 1st stage/interstage umbilical
C- 1st stage GOX vent
D- 1st stage He vent
E- 2nd stage cold gas thrusters? Antennas?
F- 1st stage-2nd stage separation system fairings (3)
G- 1st stage cold gas thrusters?

Those are my guesses, feel free to make your own.

Radar?

I still say it's the landing sensors for the turn-around, braking and descent.  There's likely some weight-distribution issue that means they have to be at the top of the stage rather than the bottom.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/09/2013 04:45 am
Per that Facebook post on the update thread, does passing the FRR mean that the hotfire date set for Tuesday won't slip further?  We should expect an attempt will happen Tues?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/09/2013 04:49 am
The facebook update mentions that the fairing has been integrated to the launch vehicle - So will the hot-fire occur withe the payload inside the fairing? Or will the fairing be empty for the hot-fire, or the fairing taken off temporarily?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 09/09/2013 08:47 am

I still say it's the landing sensors for the turn-around, braking and descent.  There's likely some weight-distribution issue that means they have to be at the top of the stage rather than the bottom.

The stage would use inertial and GPS guidance for the pre-entry maneuvers and braking burn. That doesn't require any external sensors (unless you count a GPS antenna as a sensor). For landing, that probably only needs radar as already discussed.

I doubt weight distribution has much to do with the siting of the radar antenna. I think it's more likely that it would be kept away from the propulsion bay to avoid excessive heating on ascent and entry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: blazotron on 09/09/2013 07:46 pm
If MCCX is the mission control at Canaveral, will this one be designated MCVX?

MCC-X is Dragon mission control in Hawthorne. There's "only" a LCC at the Cape and now VAFB.

I think MCC-X is used for all missions. LCC will lose sight of the vehicle after it passes over the horizon, which is long before the flight is complete.


If I could just note a correction. LCC's don't lose telemetry when vehicles go over the horizon.  That is what down range stations, tracking sites and TDRSS are for.   

MCCX is for the Dragon and not for Falcon.  LCCs are for launch vehicles.   Launch vehicles are not controlled in flight but monitored.   The LCC at VAFB is in the RLCC bldg 8500, which was for the Shuttle but now is shared with all vehicles.  The LCC at the Cape is right outside the south gate.

SpaceX's LCC at Vandenberg is in a separate building 8505 right next door to 8500. SpaceX occupies the entire building and do not share it with other vehicles.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 09/10/2013 02:34 am
The facebook update mentions that the fairing has been integrated to the launch vehicle - So will the hot-fire occur withe the payload inside the fairing? Or will the fairing be empty for the hot-fire, or the fairing taken off temporarily?

The payload(s) are encapsulated inside the fairing. And apparently this is one of the payloads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T73qP_lMkPY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/10/2013 02:40 am
The facebook update mentions that the fairing has been integrated to the launch vehicle - So will the hot-fire occur withe the payload inside the fairing? Or will the fairing be empty for the hot-fire, or the fairing taken off temporarily?

The payload(s) are encapsulated inside the fairing. And apparently this is one of the payloads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T73qP_lMkPY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Kerbal Space Program FTW!  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 09/10/2013 03:05 am
Cornell's CUSat is apparently flying too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwgrt-ikNTg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/10/2013 07:34 am
As seen in the update thread - first view of F9v1.1 with fairing:   :D
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/377325202121580544

Quote
Elon Musk
‏@elonmusk
First of next gen Falcon 9 rockets rolls out to the launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base pic.twitter.com/hNl6zKodvr
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: woods170 on 09/10/2013 08:14 am
As seen in the update thread - first view of F9v1.1 with fairing:   :D
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/377325202121580544

Quote
Elon Musk
‏@elonmusk
First of next gen Falcon 9 rockets rolls out to the launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base pic.twitter.com/hNl6zKodvr
I just love "Rockets in the Mist".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: subzero788 on 09/10/2013 09:17 am
Rolled for the static fire I presume?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/10/2013 11:42 am
That tweet is dated 9/10 at 2am. So F9 should be vertical at the pad with fairing right now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 09/10/2013 12:24 pm
Elon tweets that, as this will be the first flight of a rocket with lots of new technology, the chances of a failure are 'significant'.  I hope that MDA have paid up their insurance and I'm sure they're thanking Elon for the privilege of having their payload ride on the first flight.  ::)

Welp! We're all set for the hotfire it seems! Looking forward to pics/results!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: corrodedNut on 09/10/2013 12:39 pm
As seen in the update thread - first view of F9v1.1 with fairing:   :D
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/377325202121580544

Quote
Elon Musk
‏@elonmusk
First of next gen Falcon 9 rockets rolls out to the launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base pic.twitter.com/hNl6zKodvr

What are we seeing here? This thing supporting the fairing/payload is an integration fitting, not part of the TE, right? So the encapsulated payload was mated to F9 at the pad? At 2 in the morning?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JBF on 09/10/2013 12:58 pm
What are we seeing here? This thing supporting the fairing/payload is an integration fitting, not part of the TE, right? So the encapsulated payload was mated to F9 at the pad? At 2 in the morning?
No It's part of the TE.  If you look at some of the earlier pictures you can see it sticking up above the 2nd stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 09/10/2013 01:06 pm
Elon tweets that, as this will be the first flight of a rocket with lots of new technology, the chances of a failure are 'significant'.  I hope that MDA have paid up their insurance and I'm sure they're thanking Elon for the privilege of having their payload ride on the first flight.  ::)

Welp! We're all set for the hotfire it seems! Looking forward to pics/results!

From the Space News article it appears MDA pay about $11M for the Guinea Pig privilege. From the SpaceX web site we get a launch price of $56.5M per Falcon 9 ver 1.1 flight. So 56.5 x 0.2 = 11.3 rounded to 11.

Quote
“Cassiope paid a tiny fraction of the price for the right to be on the demonstration flight. This is essentially a development flight for the rocket. It’s not an operational flight,” Musk said.

“Cassiope is a very small satellite. It takes up just a tiny fraction of the volume of the fairing. They paid, I think, maybe 20 percent of the normal price of the mission,” he added.

http://bit.ly/19pdpoI (http://bit.ly/19pdpoI)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/10/2013 01:24 pm
Elon tweets that, as this will be the first flight of a rocket with lots of new technology, the chances of a failure are 'significant'.

Lowering expectations is a key rule in business.  If investors expect $500M in profit and get $900M, the stock jumps.  If they're told $1B and get the same $900M, the stock plummets.  People only like good surprises. 

A good engineer, when running a proto for the first time, doesn't say anything more than "Watch this!"
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: SolSystem on 09/10/2013 01:46 pm
Actually they paid less than $10 million. The contract was signed in 2005 for a Falcon 1 launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 09/10/2013 01:50 pm
Actually they paid less than $10 million. The contract was signed in 2005 for a Falcon 1 launch.

I thought that this was sounding more and more like a Falcon-1 or -1e mission.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 09/10/2013 02:10 pm
The facebook update mentions that the fairing has been integrated to the launch vehicle - So will the hot-fire occur withe the payload inside the fairing? Or will the fairing be empty for the hot-fire, or the fairing taken off temporarily?

The payload(s) are encapsulated inside the fairing. And apparently this is one of the payloads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T73qP_lMkPY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Kerbal Space Program FTW!  ;D

Is it bad that "I wonder how to build that in KSP?" was my first thought too? :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 09/10/2013 03:29 pm
Cornell's CUSat is apparently flying too:


This CUSat seems very complex.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mader Levap on 09/10/2013 03:54 pm
Elon tweets that, as this will be the first flight of a rocket with lots of new technology, the chances of a failure are 'significant'.  I hope that MDA have paid up their insurance and I'm sure they're thanking Elon for the privilege of having their payload ride on the first flight.  ::)
And I am sure MDA knows what they got into way, way better than you (or anyone not related to SpaceX or MDA).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 09/10/2013 04:02 pm
Cornell's CUSat is apparently flying too:


This CUSat seems very complex.

More background on the secondaries:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2013/09/cusat-launch-now-delayed-until-sept-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_and_Atmospheric_Neutral_Density_Explorer
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mgrusin on 09/10/2013 07:23 pm
Kerbal Space Program FTW!  ;D
Is it bad that "I wonder how to build that in KSP?" was my first thought too? :)
I'd be very surprised if that wasn't done in STK, which is the primary mission design, analysis, and visualization software we use at COSGC.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dglow on 09/10/2013 07:31 pm
Kerbal Space Program FTW!  ;D
Is it bad that "I wonder how to build that in KSP?" was my first thought too? :)
I'd be very surprised if that wasn't done in STK, which is the primary mission design, analysis, and visualization software we use at COSGC.

The credits say they used both STK and KSP.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 09/11/2013 12:30 am
Kerbal Space Program FTW!  ;D
Is it bad that "I wonder how to build that in KSP?" was my first thought too? :)
I'd be very surprised if that wasn't done in STK, which is the primary mission design, analysis, and visualization software we use at COSGC.

Well, sure. I've actually used STK myself years ago.

That being said, the thing itself looks very "Kerbal." KSP players will understand.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Retired Downrange on 09/11/2013 12:54 am
Roll out photo with fairing just posted on FB


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153239285540131&set=a.10150303260090131.563831.353851465130&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf


SpaceX
The next gen Falcon 9 rocket with satellite fairing rolls out to SpaceX's launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 09/11/2013 02:37 am
Roll out photo with fairing just posted on FB


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153239285540131&set=a.10150303260090131.563831.353851465130&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf


SpaceX
The next gen Falcon 9 rocket with satellite fairing rolls out to SpaceX's launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base.

That was already on Elon's twitter and in higher resolution. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTyHRaVCIAAc8Zr.jpg:orig
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Froplume on 09/11/2013 07:39 am
Kerbal Space Program FTW!  ;D
Is it bad that "I wonder how to build that in KSP?" was my first thought too? :)
I'd be very surprised if that wasn't done in STK, which is the primary mission design, analysis, and visualization software we use at COSGC.

Well, sure. I've actually used STK myself years ago.

That being said, the thing itself looks very "Kerbal." KSP players will understand.

The rocket launch and fairing separation was done using Kerbal Space Program and a add-on by a user for the v1.1. All of the space video after that was done with STK using a model of the satellite that was ported from Solid Works.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Joffan on 09/12/2013 06:30 pm

The rocket launch and fairing separation was done using Kerbal Space Program and a add-on by a user for the v1.1. All of the space video after that was done with STK using a model of the satellite that was ported from Solid Works.

Thanks Froplume, and welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: averagespacejoe on 09/13/2013 04:16 am
So I know MDA has posted their patch for CASSIOPE for quite some time but any word now that we are almost L-2 whether SpaceX has or will release its own mission patch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: woods170 on 09/13/2013 06:37 am
Hmm....

Quote
Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk
Full thrust achieved on 2 sec static fire. Some anomalies to be investigated, so launch date tbd.
To be expected. This is a new vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AnjaZoe on 09/13/2013 08:15 am
I'm sorry, but Space-X did claim multiple times that they have tested way more than other space companies. If I test much much more (not my words!), I would not expect "anomalies" on a vehicle, that from its name is just an update to an existing one.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 09/13/2013 08:19 am
Hmm....

Quote
Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk
Full thrust achieved on 2 sec static fire. Some anomalies to be investigated, so launch date tbd.
To be expected. This is a new vehicle.
Yeah, and since I was betting on early-mid October for this one, I might now have a larger chance of being right.  ::) Happy to be wrong though!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Rabidpanda on 09/13/2013 08:22 am
I'm sorry, but Space-X did claim multiple times that they have tested way more than other space companies. If I test much much more (not my words!), I would not expect "anomalies" on a vehicle, that from its name is just an update to an existing one.

Except we all know that this is a completely new rocket and some small glitches are to be expected. And the whole point of testing so much is to find these anomalies, which it sounds like they did.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AnjaZoe on 09/13/2013 08:26 am
Yes, but you normally - according to gold old space industry fahsion -  test before the launch is just three days ahead with the payload already integrated  :o
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Rabidpanda on 09/13/2013 08:34 am
Well they have tested the engines and stages individually, this is just the first time it's been tested all together on the brand new pad. And this whole launch is really just a test flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: woods170 on 09/13/2013 10:42 am
I'm sorry, but Space-X did claim multiple times that they have tested way more than other space companies. If I test much much more (not my words!), I would not expect "anomalies" on a vehicle, that from its name is just an update to an existing one.



Remember what happened on the first launch of Delta IV Heavy? Cavitation in propellant feedline causing a slightly early shutdown of the first stage.  That was an anomaly as well. On a vehicle that by it's name was just a bigger version of the already existing Delta IV. And it was on a vehicle that had been thoroughly tested. But still, that anomaly occurred.

Point is: in rocketry you can test all you like, but there will always be something that bites you in the *ss once you actually start launching. ULA, Arianespace, ILS, SpaceX.... They can all attest to that. Anomalies will always be there. This is not just typical for SpaceX, but for the rest of the industry as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 09/13/2013 11:18 am
I'm sorry, but Space-X did claim multiple times that they have tested way more than other space companies. If I test much much more (not my words!), I would not expect "anomalies" on a vehicle, that from its name is just an update to an existing one.

That's a problem with your expectations, not with anything SpaceX did or said.  They said they did a lot of testing.  They didn't say that that meant we shouldn't expect anomalies in the hot fire test.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 09/13/2013 01:00 pm
What if the anomalies are with the pad and not with the vehicle?

This is the first "test" of the pad, after all.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 09/13/2013 01:06 pm
IIRC, the hot fire on the v.1.0 were up to ignition + 4 seconds, so for them to abort at 2 seconds was an early indication of 'anomalies'.  The only things that occur to me are thrust instabilities in one or more engines or a stress red-line warning on one of the hold-downs.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: docmordrid on 09/13/2013 01:20 pm
IIRC, the hot fire on the v.1.0 were up to ignition + 4 seconds, so for them to abort at 2 seconds was an early indication of 'anomalies'.  The only things that occur to me are thrust instabilities in one or more engines or a stress red-line warning on one of the hold-downs.
Or the 1D engines reached full, stable thrust in 2 seconds instead of the 1C's 4?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/13/2013 01:47 pm
a stress red-line warning on one of the hold-downs.

That isn't a measured value.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Joffan on 09/13/2013 02:05 pm
With the new pad and T/E, it's real progress to get the hotfire done, but it's also important to remember that the Falcon9 v1.1 has never yet flown. Despite all the computer modelling you could dream of, there's no substitute for the real rocket really going through MaxQ in the real atmosphere.

There will be tight stomachs and held breath at SpaceX on launch day (and here too of course) no matter how smoothly the preparation goes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: edkyle99 on 09/13/2013 02:18 pm
Yes, but you normally - according to gold old space industry fahsion -  test before the launch is just three days ahead with the payload already integrated  :o
They did.  The vehicle had a wet dress rehearsal on August 28. 

Hot fire tests on the pad are not standard procedure for mature launch vehicles.  It used to be standard, back in the very early days, for Atlas and Titan and Thor, etc..  Most of those tests also only took place a few days before launch, and problems cropped up frequently.  Occasionally, a rocket would actually explode or otherwise be destroyed during a hot fire test.

Remember that Antares also endured an extended round of WDR and hot fire test scrubs.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 09/13/2013 02:30 pm
IIRC, the hot fire on the v.1.0 were up to ignition + 4 seconds, so for them to abort at 2 seconds was an early indication of 'anomalies'.  The only things that occur to me are thrust instabilities in one or more engines or a stress red-line warning on one of the hold-downs.

You realize how many things are monitored and can go out of limits with a rocket, right?  I'm not sure on what basis you can make narrow it down to those two things.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 09/13/2013 02:33 pm
I'm sorry, but Space-X did claim multiple times that they have tested way more than other space companies. If I test much much more (not my words!), I would not expect "anomalies" on a vehicle, that from its name is just an update to an existing one.
That's a problem with your expectations, not with anything SpaceX did or said.  They said they did a lot of testing.  They didn't say that that meant we shouldn't expect anomalies in the hot fire test.

I think Anja has an excellent point.  SpaceX is responsible for ratcheting up irrational expectations in the fan community, and now SpaceX is showing that it has the same teething problems everyone else has.  I've been making this point for years.  Irrational exuberance begets irrational depression when things don't go exactly perfect.  SpaceX should be proud for going so far so fast as a team that has recently come together.  As far as achieving orbit reliably on time, SpaceX is no better than anyone else on the planet, despite an ethos claiming to be.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/13/2013 03:40 pm
I'm sorry, but Space-X did claim multiple times that they have tested way more than other space companies. If I test much much more (not my words!), I would not expect "anomalies" on a vehicle, that from its name is just an update to an existing one.
That's a problem with your expectations, not with anything SpaceX did or said.  They said they did a lot of testing.  They didn't say that that meant we shouldn't expect anomalies in the hot fire test.

I think Anja has an excellent point.  SpaceX is responsible for ratcheting up irrational expectations in the fan community, and now SpaceX is showing that it has the same teething problems everyone else has.

 ::) Really? It sounds more like you think SpaceX is responsible for not launching a massive public education campaign about A) the realities of testing vs rubber on the ground (the thing hasn't even left the pad yet, so clearly the testing is not over) and B) history of issues with first launches of new types.

SpaceX is increasing the public interest in spaceflight.  (not massively, but still - Chris should be able to verify that with forum traffic)  :) Isn't that a good thing? Something that we all spaceflight enthusiasts have been wanting? But when it happens, we get complaints like yours that they simply aren't managing the P.R. as well as you think they should. But with increased attention you always get some good and bad, it comes with the territory.

I've been making this point for years.

And with increasing frequency recently.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 09/13/2013 04:20 pm
I think Anja has an excellent point.

I don't think Anja is a good representative of SpaceX fans. Not a reasonable space fan would ever equate "a lot more tests" to "no anomalies".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/13/2013 04:23 pm
Remember to keep an eye on the update thread. Things moving pretty fast and we're in for an intense weekend.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kirghizstan on 09/13/2013 04:30 pm
Remember to keep an eye on the update thread. Things moving pretty fast and we're in for an intense weekend.

is the target still sunday or are the tea leaves saying something different?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: WHAP on 09/13/2013 04:55 pm

I've been making this point for years.

And with increasing frequency recently.  ;)

Adding the winky doesn't hide the fact that this is an unnecessary statement.  Antares' recent posts (last couple of months) don't seem to be increasing with respect to statements about SpaceX's teething problems. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/13/2013 05:06 pm
Remember to keep an eye on the update thread. Things moving pretty fast and we're in for an intense weekend.

is the target still sunday or are the tea leaves saying something different?

Still Sunday!

Seems awfully tight, and it'll be at the mercy of how the second hot fire goes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Orbiter on 09/13/2013 05:07 pm
Cutting it close if they're going to hotfire again tomorrow, then have the LRR, then launch Sunday.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mader Levap on 09/13/2013 05:24 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/13/2013 05:27 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...

Remember the first F9 launch? An abort and then launch within a few hours. They can move fast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kirghizstan on 09/13/2013 05:52 pm
a SECOND hotfire?!?

just to make sure the kinks were worked out from the first?

good thing these engines are capable of many reuses
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Antares on 09/13/2013 05:59 pm
Isn't that a good thing?

Not when it backfires and loses people who would otherwise have been kept by slow build-up with accurate expectations.  Many of us who are enthusiasts already know what to expect.  There are many even in the industry, especially in the payload community, who believe the SpaceX spin.  I think let-downs or shortfalls end up losing more people than reasonable build-up fails to attract.  Out of being fooled once, they ignore subsequent achievements.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LegendCJS on 09/13/2013 06:03 pm
Isn't that a good thing?

Not when it backfires and loses people who would otherwise have been kept by slow build-up with accurate expectations.  Many of us who are enthusiasts already know what to expect.  There are many even in the industry, especially in the payload community, who believe the SpaceX spin.  I think let-downs or shortfalls end up losing more people than reasonable build-up fails to attract.  Out of being fooled once, they ignore subsequent achievements.

Nobody with the responsibility to decide how to spend space launch size amounts of money is letting amazing peopleism, hype, or enthusiasm influence their decisions.  Forum posters, however, are another story.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Targeteer on 09/13/2013 06:04 pm
From Facebook

30th Space Wing (Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif.)
The SpaceX launch date, which was tentatively scheduled for Sunday, is now to be determined. For more information about SpaceX, please email [email protected]
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mr. mark on 09/13/2013 07:17 pm
Wake me up when we have a launch date. I may have to spend more time on the Antares/Cygnus D launch thread. ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 09/13/2013 07:29 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...

Remember the first F9 launch? An abort and then launch within a few hours. They can move fast.

Of course, Orbital made sure the crew was well rested before the maiden launch, so they gave them a long weekend. It appears that SpaceX management has a different style. Push, Push, Push.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/13/2013 07:38 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...

Remember the first F9 launch? An abort and then launch within a few hours. They can move fast.

Of course, Orbital made sure the crew was well rested before the maiden launch, so they gave them a long weekend. It appears that SpaceX management has a different style. Push, Push, Push.

::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mlindner on 09/13/2013 08:31 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...

Remember the first F9 launch? An abort and then launch within a few hours. They can move fast.

Of course, Orbital made sure the crew was well rested before the maiden launch, so they gave them a long weekend. It appears that SpaceX management has a different style. Push, Push, Push.

Old folks need more rest time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lurker Steve on 09/13/2013 08:41 pm
You can't push on a rope
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 09/13/2013 08:52 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...

Remember the first F9 launch? An abort and then launch within a few hours. They can move fast.

Of course, Orbital made sure the crew was well rested before the maiden launch, so they gave them a long weekend. It appears that SpaceX management has a different style. Push, Push, Push.

Then again, Antares doesn't have a 50 launch backlog, so Orbital can afford to not push so hard. SpaceX needs to ramp up to a one-per-month launch cadence, ASAP. I expect if Orbital had the same kind of backlog, they'd be cracking the whip too.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 09/13/2013 08:59 pm
STILL Sunday?
This is... hardcore...

Remember the first F9 launch? An abort and then launch within a few hours. They can move fast.

Of course, Orbital made sure the crew was well rested before the maiden launch, so they gave them a long weekend. It appears that SpaceX management has a different style. Push, Push, Push.

Steve - you make it sound like a 18th century coal mine...

I betcha the people involved, which at this point are a mix of development and operation people, are very emotionally vested in this launch, and it's more a matter of management holding them back from making mistakes because they're TOO involved.

So I'd guess, without being there, that people sat down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 09/13/2013 09:07 pm

..So I'd guess, without being there, that people set down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.

You would hope so. Among the risks and consequences are burnout and staff turnover. But the point made earlier is true: they have to push because of the backlog. And QuantumG's description of his visit to Hawthorne suggests they are doing just that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/13/2013 09:14 pm
Calm it down people!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mb199 on 09/13/2013 09:20 pm
You would hope so. Among the risks and consequences are burnout and staff turnover. But the point made earlier is true: they have to push because of the backlog. And QuantumG's description of his visit to Hawthorne suggests they are doing just that.


This is like Christmas day for these people!  They probly need escorts to make them go home! LOL I am pretty sure they have not come this far and and waited this long that if they had to wait a day or 2 for them to to rest it would be done no question!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 09/13/2013 09:22 pm
The other schedule factors that likely drove SpaceX to push for a Sunday opportunity are (1) range conflicts with what sounds like upcoming VAFB missile ops that may tie up the range for a while, and (2) the high probability (60%) that any given day in September will have unfavorable weather conditions for meeting FAA safety standards. So the push to get a Sunday launch date was driven by a particular set of range constraints, it seems, not just "go fever."

(using my indoor voice, Chris.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: douglas100 on 09/13/2013 09:38 pm
Just to clarify: in my previous post I was speaking generally about working at sustained intensity over a long period. I was not suggesting that this particular launch campaign is going to burn anyone out. I'm sure they are aware of the dangers of long-term burn out as much as anyone else.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/13/2013 09:41 pm


(using my indoor voice, Chris.  ;)

Heh! ;D

What I don't get about people waving their you-know-what's around in the air over things like this is all these space company have - a lot of the time - hired from other companies. So when someone says "Oh, that decision wouldn't cut the mustard at Boeing," it was probably a former Boeing guy who made the decision based on improving practises from the time he was at Boeing.

Or maybe not, but one has to stop treating vehicles and companies like rival football teams (soccer or helmetball). There's a lot more commonality between them than one may assume.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jason Sole on 09/13/2013 09:49 pm
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/13/2013 09:51 pm
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Couldn't it be because... it's a new rocket? Did you follow Atlas V's or Delta IV's inaugural launch with this detail?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mb199 on 09/13/2013 09:54 pm
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Couldn't it be because... it's a new rocket? Did you follow Atlas V's or Delta IV's inaugural launch with this detail?

Compared to what? This is not just a new rocket it is also a new launch pad!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/13/2013 09:55 pm
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.

You kinda answered your own question there. It's a new (upgraded at least) vehicle and a brand new pad. And I wouldn't say they are having a "lot" of problems, they seem to be having some "what you might expect with a new rocket on a new pad" issues.....and you want your problems on the ground, not half way through first stage ascent.

Wowzers, this thread got to 200,000 views pretty fast!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/13/2013 09:58 pm

So I'd guess, without being there, that people sat down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.

Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Avron on 09/13/2013 10:01 pm
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.

You kinda answered your own question there. It's a new (upgraded at least) vehicle and a brand new pad. And I wouldn't say they are having a "lot" of problems, they seem to be having some "what you might expect with a new rocket on a new pad" issues.....and you want your problems on the ground, not half way through first stage ascent.

Wowzers, this thread got to 200,000 views pretty fast!

Its a good thing that the have lots of problems on the ground, before they launch.. once you launch, there ain't much fixing.. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Avron on 09/13/2013 10:04 pm

So I'd guess, without being there, that people sat down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.

Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.

If anyone other than Elon made the call to test again or launch.. I would find that realty difficult to belive
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: GalacticIntruder on 09/13/2013 10:28 pm

So I'd guess, without being there, that people sat down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.

Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.

If anyone other than Elon made the call to test again or launch.. I would find that realty difficult to belive

I agree. SpaceX is Elon's baby, and he cares more about this company than anything else. He makes the decisions. He would be willing to stretch out the launch until he thinks it has the best chance to succeed. We might be waiting weeks longer. After all, if it blows up, he is the face of it, unlike the other rocket companies. That is the downside of being high profile.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Nickolai on 09/13/2013 10:31 pm
Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.

Huh? F9-0.5? Can you elaborate or post some links?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mader Levap on 09/13/2013 10:37 pm
Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.
Huh? F9-0.5? Can you elaborate or post some links?
His remark is sarcastic - he considers that assembly unneccessary show and distraction.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AS-503 on 09/13/2013 10:45 pm
Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.
Huh? F9-0.5? Can you elaborate or post some links?
His remark is sarcastic - he considers that assembly unneccessary show and distraction.

But wasn't that more of an SA-500F type vehicle?
Which served a distinct function (not just promotional).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AJW on 09/13/2013 11:14 pm
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.

Falcon 9 is on a nearly identical initial launch rate when compared to Atlas V and Delta IV, even with the impact of the transition from V1.0 to V1.1.  I've been to KSC when an older rocket had a scrub that lasted over 4 months.  All you can do is trust the engineers to make the right decisions and pick up a good book to pass the time, like Steve Squyres 'Roving Mars'.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32719.msg1091484#msg1091484
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 09/13/2013 11:37 pm

So I'd guess, without being there, that people sat down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.

Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.

Well, neither of us is there, though I don't see what Occam's razor has to do with "top-down edicts" - Occam's razor says that lacking other data, the explanation requiring the least amount of conjecture is more likely to be true.  For example, a conspiracy is unlikely when the non-conspiracy story hold water.

Sure Elon has the final say, but the final say is also likely to be exactly as I described - talk with his crew, and make an informed decision with them.

I doubt that he'll "push push push" when his people are telling him they're either too tired or that they haven't had enough time to do a proper job. IMO, his job is to figure out whether they're trying to "run run run" too quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: padrat on 09/14/2013 12:40 am
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Couldn't it be because... it's a new rocket? Did you follow Atlas V's or Delta IV's inaugural launch with this detail?

Compared to what? This is not just a new rocket it is also a new launch pad!

And a new launch team....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Zed_Noir on 09/14/2013 12:49 am
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Couldn't it be because... it's a new rocket? Did you follow Atlas V's or Delta IV's inaugural launch with this detail?

Compared to what? This is not just a new rocket it is also a new launch pad!

And a new launch team....

So there are separate launch teams at CCAFS & VAFB?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kirghizstan on 09/14/2013 01:11 am
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Couldn't it be because... it's a new rocket? Did you follow Atlas V's or Delta IV's inaugural launch with this detail?

Compared to what? This is not just a new rocket it is also a new launch pad!

And a new launch team....

So there are separate launch teams at CCAFS & VAFB?

2 different pads that in theory could be launching within days of eachother of course they need 2 teams
Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/14/2013 01:21 am

So I'd guess, without being there, that people sat down like grown ups, weighted the risks and consequences of all options, and decided to continue at this pace.

Occam's razor would not lead to that conclusion.  It would be more of a top down edict.  Much like the frivolous assembly of F9-0.5 during the holiday season at the end of 2008.

That one data point from several years is going to be flogged over and over by you, Jim - but it still doesn't make a trend. Nor was it an actual launch of a flight article. Unless you care to point out detrimental go fever for the actual launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: justineet on 09/14/2013 01:28 am
Nothing big of a surprise here folks....the purpose of hot fire test is to identify any potential problems before launch especially on new rockets and systems.....turnover. issue?? .....no way......these people love their jobs....it's their dream job!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dcporter on 09/14/2013 01:31 am
Nothing big of a surprise here folks....the purpose of hot fire test is to identify any potential problems before launch especially on new rockets and systems.....turnover. issue?? .....no way......these people love their jobs....it's their dream job!

The ones I'm aware of on Twitter are sounding like you'd expect... exhilarated but running on fumes. You can only do that for so long, even for a job you love.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: meekGee on 09/14/2013 02:46 am
Nothing big of a surprise here folks....the purpose of hot fire test is to identify any potential problems before launch especially on new rockets and systems.....turnover. issue?? .....no way......these people love their jobs....it's their dream job!

The ones I'm aware of on Twitter are sounding like you'd expect... exhilarated but running on fumes. You can only do that for so long, even for a job you love.

That's 100% true.  But F9 has not yet made the transition to "business as usual" mode.   The more likely failures on these next few launches have to do with design issues, not flow execution.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/14/2013 05:39 pm
Has there been any L2 word on the causes of the first hot fire aborts?  I figure the reason for today's repeat is to make sure they can nail an instantaneous ignition time.  Cassiope has a window, but ISS launches don't.  So they need everything that can give a false alarm worked out.  Hopefully they get it dialed in today.
For trying to get a Cpk value on thresholds, they've got one data point.  And not enough to prove a trend against cert data at McGregor. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 09/14/2013 05:46 pm
A followup question:  How similar do we think the launch pads and McGregor test setup are?  Surely the same fittings and valves?  Overall hose lengths?  Similar tank setup?

Ignoring that the 2nd stage and payload are on top, is hotfiring the 1st stage at the pad basically the same test as acceptance at McGregor?  In terms of having to get everything right?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: PattiM on 09/14/2013 05:54 pm
I think the problem is that a flight vehicle is way different (and all "new parts") from a test stand.  I do static firings and it's amazing how much effort is saved by using the same equipment over and over.  But a rocket (including valves & seals) is all new hardware, and a lot of it!  (too much to do 100% testing with anything like rapid turnaround - NASA et. al. learnt this decades ago)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/14/2013 06:50 pm
I think the problem is that a flight vehicle is way different (and all "new parts") from a test stand.  I do static firings and it's amazing how much effort is saved by using the same equipment over and over.  But a rocket (including valves & seals) is all new hardware, and a lot of it!  (too much to do 100% testing with anything like rapid turnaround - NASA et. al. learnt this decades ago)
Of course, the point is to use even the rocket parts over and over again. ;)

But yes, this is the same architecture as v1.0 (i.e. TSTO kerolox with 9 engines on first stage, engine-out capability, gas generator, similar pad flow, etc...) but the hardware is very, very significantly changed. The pad is new. They will naturally have problems that need solving on this first flight, like every other rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: bioelectromechanic on 09/14/2013 09:59 pm
I'm surprised nobody is admiring Elon's dauntlessness.

Once you've done the seemingly impossible and got a pretty good cheap launch vehicle like the F9,  it takes a tremendous amount of courage to risk it all with by going after a huge leap in technology like the F9.1.
Consider the Russians were too afraid to change out vacuum tubes for transistors for 40 years.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 09/14/2013 10:20 pm
I'm surprised nobody is admiring Elon's dauntlessness.

Once you've done the seemingly impossible and got a pretty good cheap launch vehicle like the F9,  it takes a tremendous amount of courage to risk it all with by going after a huge leap in technology like the F9.1.
Consider the Russians were too afraid to change out vacuum tubes for transistors for 40 years.
He has said in a interview that if he can’t make rockets reusable, he would consider SpaceX has failed.  People from Silicon Valley have different mind set. Of course, there is Mars, and F9R  is just one small step.

So I admire more his vision and the way to approach his end goal.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 09/14/2013 11:01 pm
I think the problem is that a flight vehicle is way different (and all "new parts") from a test stand.  I do static firings and it's amazing how much effort is saved by using the same equipment over and over.  But a rocket (including valves & seals) is all new hardware, and a lot of it!  (too much to do 100% testing with anything like rapid turnaround - NASA et. al. learnt this decades ago)

The whole first stage was fired on a test stand in Texas.  This same stage that's on the pad in California.  There are no new parts on the first stage of the flight vehicle.

Only two things were new with the hot fire on the pad:

    1. The ground equipment on the pad.  This includes the flame trench, the transporter/erector, the propellent hoses etc.

    2. The second stage and payload attached to the top.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: mb199 on 09/14/2013 11:17 pm
No hot fire test today, scheduled for Wednesday Sept 18.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 09/14/2013 11:38 pm
No hot fire test today, scheduled for Wednesday Sept 18.
That’s why Elon is taking a break in Vegas  ;D

@elonmusk: Supporting @FloydMayweather in Vegas w @justinbieber, @Shervin, @Kimbal and @TalulahRiley. Am behind JB's fist. http://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/379009738324729856/photo/1
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars_J on 09/15/2013 12:05 am
No hot fire test today, scheduled for Wednesday Sept 18.

Bummer, but they'll take the time they need.

On a more positive note, that means I'll have a chance of catching the launch live, since I will be out of Internet access for the next few days.. :-) (on a cruise)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: WHAP on 09/15/2013 02:18 am
No hot fire test today, scheduled for Wednesday Sept 18.
That’s why Elon is taking a break in Vegas  ;D

@elonmusk: Supporting @FloydMayweather in Vegas w @justinbieber, @Shervin, @Kimbal and @TalulahRiley. Am behind JB's fist. http://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/379009738324729856/photo/1

Or that's why there was no hot fire test today  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Prober on 09/15/2013 02:20 am
No hot fire test today, scheduled for Wednesday Sept 18.
That’s why Elon is taking a break in Vegas  ;D

@elonmusk: Supporting @FloydMayweather in Vegas w @justinbieber, @Shervin, @Kimbal and @TalulahRiley. Am behind JB's fist. http://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/379009738324729856/photo/1 (http://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/379009738324729856/photo/1)
hmmm good spend some major $$ while in town.    For those that don't know the fight is scheduled because its Mexico's independence day.  Its Floyd Mayweather vs the best of Mexico.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: WHAP on 09/15/2013 02:34 am
But they do seem to be having a lot of problems with this new rocket Chris.
Couldn't it be because... it's a new rocket? Did you follow Atlas V's or Delta IV's inaugural launch with this detail?

IIRC Atlas V was better (not so many slips).  Delta IV's was about the same as v.1.1 is now, but we'll see when v1.1 launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: go4mars on 09/15/2013 03:50 am
I'm surprised nobody is admiring Elon's dauntlessness.
You are wrong.  Most of the nerds on here do admire it.  Even a lot of the ones who think it's a bad idea. 

It's bold, but the praise may be understated because it's a relatively small step along the extremely bold path of Mars colonization.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Garrett on 09/15/2013 09:52 am
Per Elon's recent tweet (see update thread) launch is now NET Sept 29th.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Silmfeanor on 09/15/2013 10:21 am
Per Elon's recent tweet (see update thread) launch is now NET Sept 29th.

full text - reflecting not only the need for a 2nd test but the range being busy ( testing ICBMs as Elon puts it )
Quote
Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk 1h

Will do another static fire of rocket to make sure all is good & AF needs to test ICBMs, so probable launch Sept 29/30.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: geza on 09/15/2013 10:54 am
Why static fire is often referred to as hot fire? Is there such thing, that cold fire? :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: R7 on 09/15/2013 11:19 am
Is there such thing, that cold fire? :-)

Sort of, wet dress rehearsals are also known as cold flow tests.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/15/2013 11:32 am
going after a huge leap in technology like the F9.1.


It isn't a leap in technology much less a huge one, it is just a different configuration.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 09/15/2013 11:34 am

Sort of, wet dress rehearsals are also known as cold flow tests.

Cold flow test are usually done with inert gases vs propellants
A hot flow would be with propellants and no launch vehicle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 09/15/2013 12:06 pm
going after a huge leap in technology like the F9.1.


It isn't a leap in technology much less a huge one, it is just a different configuration.

The fact that it will (eventually) be reusable is a big leap.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Avron on 09/15/2013 01:04 pm
going after a huge leap in technology like the F9.1.


It isn't a leap in technology much less a huge one, it is just a different configuration.

The fact that it will (eventually) be reusable is a big leap.

There is one thing making it reusable, its another thing to do so in a cost effective way so as to reduce costs of the whole program proportionally to the cost of disposable LV.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: yg1968 on 09/15/2013 04:07 pm
Apparently, you will get a 25% discounted price for using a reusable rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/15/2013 04:15 pm
Apparently, you will get a 25% discounted price for using a reusable rocket.
That's a start! The nice thing about fast-turnaround reusability is it restores elasticity, allowing the supplier to give deep discounts who buy lots of flights. And /that/ is potentially a game changer.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 09/15/2013 08:10 pm
The CASSIOPE mission will test, if everything goes correctly, all the hardware/software needed to make the vehicle reusable except for landing legs. Adding legs is not much of a complexity, but more of a performance penalty. Some software changes are necessary in the feedback flight control loops possibly, at least changes of the constants.

If the legs are designed such that they can be attached/detached as part of the pad flow then the difference in reusable and expendable vehicles would actually be minor.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: IRobot on 09/15/2013 08:45 pm
Apparently, you will get a 25% discounted price for using a reusable rocket.
That's a start! The nice thing about fast-turnaround reusability is it restores elasticity, allowing the supplier to give deep discounts who buy lots of flights. And /that/ is potentially a game changer.
From Elon's words, he seemed to imply that 25% is on the long run, not for the first customer...

That makes me wonder how much Falcon 9 2nd stage costs and why is he so eager to make the 2nd stage recoverable. At first I though the engines (at $1M each) were by far the biggest part of the cost, so first stage would be much more expensive than 2nd stage. If that is not the case, all this effort will not revolutionize space access.

Still, FH benefits a LOT more, 27 engines, 3 cores and the same 2nd stage. The discount for FH should be much larger.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 09/15/2013 09:30 pm
Apparently, you will get a 25% discounted price for using a reusable rocket.
That's a start! The nice thing about fast-turnaround reusability is it restores elasticity, allowing the supplier to give deep discounts who buy lots of flights. And /that/ is potentially a game changer.
From Elon's words, he seemed to imply that 25% is on the long run, not for the first customer...
...
Citation? My statement was a general statement, not a specific one. The upper stage isn't the biggest cost, the issue is that SpaceX HAS to be profitable, so they need a certain number of launches per year to pay for their staff and overhead. There aren't an infinite number of commercial payloads out there. They cannot lower their costs by much until the market grows or they'll go out of business. However, if someone wanted a LOT of launches with streamlined processing, I'd imagine SpaceX could offer them deep discounts if they got fast-turnaround reusability working even with an expendable upper stage. Deep as in 50% below offered price. But if you still have standard processing flow that commercial customers expect and only have payloads one at a time, it's much harder to make enough money to offer more than say a 25% discount. Full reusability doesn't make sense unless SpaceX can launch 40+ times a year (which is basically EVERY commercial payload, and that's a range of payload classes), while partial reusability can be profitable at a fraction of that (8-10 times a year according to Lockheed Martin).

And I really don't think engines are as important to total costs as many make them out to be. A rocket is so much more than the sum of its parts.


Think about it this way: If SpaceX is currently viable at 8 launches per year (at, say, 50 million a year for 16 metric tons $3125/kg), offering a 25% discount (on cost per kg, assuming a 75% as big payload...$2344/kg) will give them the same revenue ($400 million) at 14 flights per year, but now they have a more complicated flow which can be compensated by not having to manufacture as many cores every year (and possibly having lower testing costs?). But would it really be worth the risk? They probably would want at least 16 or 18 launches if they get reusability working. Then it'd be worth the hassle for them. Full reuse is much harder. If they offered, say, a 57% discount on the partially reusable (with a 33% reduction in payload, so 8mT per flight and thus $1000/kg), they'd need at LEAST 50 flights to equal the same revenue as they had before. That is a huge number of flights, again it's the entire commercial market and maybe a little more. In order to make it profitable, they'd need to get more flights than that (say, 80 flights/year) or they'd have to charge more.

This is all terribly risky, so now you see why most companies have stuck with expendable. It's not that reusable is impossible, it's that there's just not enough demand out there. This is a very imperfect market. A company like SpaceX, if they really can hit their advertised rates while doing it on schedule and with comparably low risk all at the same time (which may be questionable), will end up owning nearly the whole market and thus has no real incentive to lower costs.

ULA (and before that their parent companies) was in this situation earlier, and realized they would be no less profitable if they simply let Russia and China (and subsidized Europe) take the commercial market, and so decided to serve just gov't customers. They could get away with this because there are high barriers to entry and because, well, to be honest, space launch isn't very profitable.

SpaceX may get around this by finding other revenue sources, such as crewed spaceflight and ISS logistics (ULA cannot build spacecraft because of anti-trust or somesuch) and possibly by increasing profitability with partial reuse. I personally believe that full reuse will require either a significant beyond-LEO exploration program by NASA (provided NASA doesn't firmly decide to use just their own launchers) or a significantly expanded commercial market.

SpaceX overcame the barrier to entry partially by having a rich guy who wanted to do cool stuff with connections to other rich friends (who also wanted to do stuff) who could finance the capital and by finding NASA in need of space station logistics after Shuttle's loss. Blue Origin may also overcome the barrier to entry in much the same way, except Jeff Bezos is more of a loner but he's a much richer loner so Blue Origin can tinker for longer than SpaceX can without being concerned with things like "customers." But once Blue Origin is successful, they could compete with SpaceX in cost in the partial reusability regime, perhaps giving customers the confidence to invest in the new business opportunities that lower launch costs enable. If the market grows significantly because of this (perhaps toward orbital tourism, I don't know), then conditions would be ripe for full reuse.


(BTW, the situation is obviously more complex... Not all payloads need the full v1.1 expendable capacity and not all payloads would fit on F9R, and some payloads will need FH, which could bring in significantly more profit... Gov't customers are really helpful in this way since they have complicated requirements that help revenue significantly. It'd be even better if they had simple requirements but lots of launch need.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Kabloona on 09/15/2013 09:31 pm
While we twiddle out thumbs for two more weeks, here's a somewhat informative article on weather considerations for launch at VAFB. And while Capt Weiss says a launch has never been cancelled due to weather during her tenure there, the FAA waiver for this particular launch states that there's only a 40% probability of weather meeting the FAA safety criteria at any given time in September. (The waiver did not say whether that probability changes in later months in case of slips.)

http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123363212
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - CASSIOPE - September, 2013 - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/15/2013 10:57 pm
This thread is now way too long and starting to wander a bit.

Time for Thread 2:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32859.0