Author Topic: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats  (Read 24786 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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I didn't know we made the "first step"... ;)

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Offline yg1968

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #1 on: 05/19/2016 02:30 am »
Very interesting hearing. But I was disapointed that Bigelow wasn't invited to the hearing. ATK-Orbital, Boeing and LM were all there.

Orbital seemed concerned about the 30% skin in the game requirement for the Nextstep-2 proposal. Culbertson wondered whether NASA would allow them to get some of that money back through commercialization of their habitats.

Crusan said that that NASA may procure a deep space habitat under fixed price for parts of the habitat (for example, for the module itself) but cost plus for the more risky parts of the habitat.

Andy Weir was very pro-commercial sector. I am not sure that the House committee expected this.

Weir discussed artificial gravity for a while. He said that you would need a 450m cable for it to work. You could have modules at both end of the cable. He said that the cable would be long but that it would only weight a fraction of the weight of the ISS (85,000 pounds, I believe). So it would be doable. He said that it would mitigate the problems that the crew would have if it stays in zero G for too long prior to getting to Mars. He said that crews coming from the ISS take weeks to get used to Earth gravity and that this would also be an issue when astronauts land on Mars.  His artificial gravity idea would fix this problem.
« Last Edit: 05/20/2016 06:06 pm by yg1968 »

Offline jongoff

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #2 on: 05/19/2016 04:16 am »
Very interesting hearing. But I was disapointed that Bigelow wasn't invited to the hearing. ATK-Orbital, Boeing and LM were all there.

Orbital seemed concerned about the 30% skin in the game requirement for the Nextstep-2 proposal. Culbertson wondered whether NASA would allow them to get some of that money back through commercialization of their habitats.

Andy Weir was very pro-commercial sector. I am not sure that the House committee expected this.

Crusan said that that NASA may procure a deep space habitat under fixed price for parts of the habitat (for example, the module itself) but cost plus for the more risky parts of the habitat.

Weir discussed about artificial gravity for a while. He said that you would need a 450m cable for it to work. You could have modules at both end of the cable. He said that the cable would be long but that it would only weight a fraction of the weight of the ISS (85,000 pounds, I believe). So it would be doable. He said that it would mitigate the problems that the crew would have if it stays in zero G for too long prior to getting to Mars. He said that crews coming from the ISS take weeks to get used to Earth gravity and that this would also be an issue when astronauts land on Mars.  His artificial gravity idea would fix this problem.

Between his testimony here, and some of his statements at the H2M conference, I'm even more impressed with Andy Weir than I was from reading his book. Glad someone finally pointed out how badly we need a variable gravity research capability in space.

~Jon

Offline AncientU

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #3 on: 05/19/2016 05:32 pm »
Very interesting hearing. But I was disapointed that Bigelow wasn't invited to the hearing. ATK-Orbital, Boeing and LM were all there.

Orbital seemed concerned about the 30% skin in the game requirement for the Nextstep-2 proposal. Culbertson wondered whether NASA would allow them to get some of that money back through commercialization of their habitats.

Andy Weir was very pro-commercial sector. I am not sure that the House committee expected this.

Crusan said that that NASA may procure a deep space habitat under fixed price for parts of the habitat (for example, the module itself) but cost plus for the more risky parts of the habitat.

Weir discussed about artificial gravity for a while. He said that you would need a 450m cable for it to work. You could have modules at both end of the cable. He said that the cable would be long but that it would only weight a fraction of the weight of the ISS (85,000 pounds, I believe). So it would be doable. He said that it would mitigate the problems that the crew would have if it stays in zero G for too long prior to getting to Mars. He said that crews coming from the ISS take weeks to get used to Earth gravity and that this would also be an issue when astronauts land on Mars.  His artificial gravity idea would fix this problem.

Between his testimony here, and some of his statements at the H2M conference, I'm even more impressed with Andy Weir than I was from reading his book. Glad someone finally pointed out how badly we need a variable gravity research capability in space.

~Jon

Your new-found spokesperson was 'edged out' by someone named von Braun 65 years ago.
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Offline jongoff

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #4 on: 05/19/2016 08:46 pm »
Very interesting hearing. But I was disapointed that Bigelow wasn't invited to the hearing. ATK-Orbital, Boeing and LM were all there.

Orbital seemed concerned about the 30% skin in the game requirement for the Nextstep-2 proposal. Culbertson wondered whether NASA would allow them to get some of that money back through commercialization of their habitats.

Andy Weir was very pro-commercial sector. I am not sure that the House committee expected this.

Crusan said that that NASA may procure a deep space habitat under fixed price for parts of the habitat (for example, the module itself) but cost plus for the more risky parts of the habitat.

Weir discussed about artificial gravity for a while. He said that you would need a 450m cable for it to work. You could have modules at both end of the cable. He said that the cable would be long but that it would only weight a fraction of the weight of the ISS (85,000 pounds, I believe). So it would be doable. He said that it would mitigate the problems that the crew would have if it stays in zero G for too long prior to getting to Mars. He said that crews coming from the ISS take weeks to get used to Earth gravity and that this would also be an issue when astronauts land on Mars.  His artificial gravity idea would fix this problem.

Between his testimony here, and some of his statements at the H2M conference, I'm even more impressed with Andy Weir than I was from reading his book. Glad someone finally pointed out how badly we need a variable gravity research capability in space.

~Jon

Your new-found spokesperson was 'edged out' by someone named von Braun 65 years ago.

I'm just pointing out that I'm glad someone Congress might actually listen to is making those arguments again. I know several of us have been making this argument for many years, but hearing it stated so bluntly in a Congressional testimony was refreshing.

~Jon

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Statements of witnesses here (click on names for pdf files).
Getting through max-Q for humanity becoming fully spacefaring

Offline vulture4

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #6 on: 06/01/2016 07:23 pm »
Babin: "We know what goal we want to achieve: putting humans on Mars." Babin said nothing about the value of anything other than sending a few Americans to Mars. I'm not at all sure we know this is our goal, and if it is, the cost and practical benefits are critical. What about development of civilization in LEO with dozens or hundreds of people in space?

Use of a tether-based centrifuge is an old idea but there is currently no evidence that artificial gravity is the most efficient countermeasure for the effects of weightlessness.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2016 07:25 pm by vulture4 »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #7 on: 06/01/2016 07:27 pm »
Mars is the consensus primary end-goal of the space community. Some think we should go to the Moon first, some think asteroids, some think just to go straight there, but a solid super-duper-majority of the human spaceflight community agree that Mars is a good goal, whether near or far term.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #8 on: 06/01/2016 11:13 pm »
Except for us O'Neillians.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #9 on: 06/02/2016 05:15 am »
Except for us O'Neillians.

Aren't we all O'Neillians? Except we may have different ideas on the natural progression towards them.

Offline RonM

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #10 on: 06/02/2016 03:20 pm »
Except for us O'Neillians.

Aren't we all O'Neillians? Except we may have different ideas on the natural progression towards them.

If someone is pro space colony and asteroid mining, then setting up a colony on Mars would be a waste of time. Why go back to a gravity well?

Personally, I think we should do all of the above, but there's no funding for that. Doesn't seem to be enough funding for any of it.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #11 on: 06/02/2016 03:55 pm »
Mars is the consensus primary end-goal of the space community. Some think we should go to the Moon first, some think asteroids, some think just to go straight there, but a solid super-duper-majority of the human spaceflight community agree that Mars is a good goal, whether near or far term.

'A few humans' sounds awfully  close to Flags and Footprints.  Don't think there are (hardly) any left in the space community that believe F&F is still a viable end in human space flight.
That's not in my post that you quoted. What are you referring to?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline clongton

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #12 on: 06/02/2016 04:16 pm »
Personally, I think we should do all of the above, but there's no funding for that. Doesn't seem to be enough funding for any of it.

There's been "no funding for that" since Apollo was shut down. WRT the federal government or any of its agencies, including NASA, that is not going to change anytime soon. We have all been watching this slow train wreck for many years now. Most thought we were waiting for Congress to wise up and appropriate some real money. Turns out what we were actually waiting for was for someone in the commercial world to take the bull by the horns because it is becoming increasingly evident that Congress never will. But they still play the game. They keep having hearings about all the grand things we are going to [someday] do in space. Yawn.
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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #13 on: 06/02/2016 08:25 pm »
Deleted. Not content for the space policy section.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2016 08:27 pm by guckyfan »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #14 on: 07/27/2016 12:15 am »
Quote from: spacepolicyonline
Wayne Hale: what about artificial gravity? Gerst: fine to discuss in movie world but not in my world. No studies show we need it.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/757938498175283200

Offline gbaikie

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #15 on: 07/27/2016 03:09 am »
Except for us O'Neillians.

Aren't we all O'Neillians? Except we may have different ideas on the natural progression towards them.

If someone is pro space colony and asteroid mining, then setting up a colony on Mars would be a waste of time. Why go back to a gravity well?

If you have cheap rocket fuel, why wouldn't you go to Mars.
If space colony or Mars doesn't have cheap rocket fuel- the colony and/or Mars is not viable.
Cheap rocket fuel includes rocket fuel tens times more expensive than rocket fuel which can be
less $1 per kg on Earth.
Or flip side if want a space colony and/or Mars settlements the path to get there is to get cheap rocket fuel in Space.

Rocket fuel at $1000 per kg at LEO or high earth orbit would step towards colonies in space, but there is no
reason that rocket fuel in high earth orbit can not be cheaper than rocket fuel on the Earth surface. There is constant sunlight, and you just need water- and our solar system has far more water than Earth has.

One should start mining water on the Moon because it's a place to start making rocket fuel in space in terms
of a relatively small scale, but if doing colonies one going to need thousands of tons or hundreds of thousands of ton of rocket fuel per year in space.
« Last Edit: 07/27/2016 03:12 am by gbaikie »

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #16 on: 07/27/2016 06:22 am »
Quote from: spacepolicyonline
Wayne Hale: what about artificial gravity? Gerst: fine to discuss in movie world but not in my world. No studies show we need it.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/757938498175283200

For NASA going to Mars, which is likely in a very limited way, that makes sense.

Artificial gravity is going to take years to develop and iterate, and though it might be required once we start expanding humanity out into space in meaningful numbers, for a four person mission to Mars it's not cost effective.  Habs will do fine for now, especially since the likelihood that NASA will get funded to go to Mars anytime soon is pretty slim...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline vulture4

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #17 on: 07/27/2016 05:58 pm »
Artificial gravity is certainly possible but we have had people in 0-G for well over a year without identifying any problems severe enough to be considered roadblocks. I am concerned about increasing the cost and complexity of any project at this stage. Artificial gravity could easily become a requirement, adding greatly to the minimum cost of any long duration human spaceflight.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2016 06:41 pm by vulture4 »

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #18 on: 07/29/2016 02:24 am »
Quote from: spacepolicyonline
Wayne Hale: what about artificial gravity? Gerst: fine to discuss in movie world but not in my world. No studies show we need it.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/757938498175283200

For NASA going to Mars, which is likely in a very limited way, that makes sense.

Artificial gravity is going to take years to develop and iterate, and though it might be required once we start expanding humanity out into space in meaningful numbers, for a four person mission to Mars it's not cost effective.  Habs will do fine for now, especially since the likelihood that NASA will get funded to go to Mars anytime soon is pretty slim...

//concur//

Ron,

Our first Mars explorers will be subjected to a lot of things that settlers in 20 years will not.  We are not going to send humans on suicide missions but they will not have all the creature comforts we would like to have. 

We will have artificial gravity when either:

A)  Congress decides we need it
B) Bazzilionaire decides he or she wants it

Do we need it?  I feel we do... but does NASA and congress think we need it?  Mmmm not so much.

Enjoying the ride.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
 

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Hearing: Next Steps to Mars: Deep Space Habitats
« Reply #19 on: 07/30/2016 12:29 am »
Artificial gravity is useful for studying partial-gravity but isn't needed for Mars transit.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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