Author Topic: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)  (Read 173948 times)

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #780 on: 12/02/2017 08:07 PM »

The original DARPA contract with us was fixed-price (which is how I managed all my gov't contracts or OTA agreements).  For Phase 3 they decided they wanted to go to cost-plus, and I didn't, so we novated the equipment, including that beautiful plenum (25K lbm of stainless...) to one of our subcontractors.  (DARPA can't actually own facilities so they never took title to the hardware.)  After Phase 3 ended, the equipment was removed from the site by that contractor and put in storage; beyond that I don't know the disposition – until I saw the photo above.
Which suggests either they are a sub contractor on this programme or they sold it off. It looks in good condition.
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline Archibald

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Offline t43562

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #782 on: 12/05/2017 06:09 AM »

For those of us who aren't experts :
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/rascal.htm

Quote
The power plant is comprised of conventional, military gas turbine engines but with a technology enhancement called Mass Injection and Pre-Compressor Cooling (MIPCC) that allows for higher Mach number and altitude operation. This capability is required for the MPV to accomplish a zoom maneuver in which the vehicle accelerates as it climbs to very high altitude. There it deploys the expendable upper stage that places the payload on obit. The reusable MPV then decelerates upon reentry and lands on a conventional runway.

... which makes it sound like a true pre-cursor to SABRE and so fortunate that something that similar was done that the equipment could be reused.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #783 on: 12/05/2017 07:31 AM »

For those of us who aren't experts :
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/rascal.htm

... which makes it sound like a true pre-cursor to SABRE and so fortunate that something that similar was done that the equipment could be reused.
Only if by "pre cursor" you mean 12 years after REL was founded. :(

It's more like the precursor to the XS-1 concept, although it's unclear what launch speed they were targeting for the reusable aircraft. We know a Phantom II with this technology could achieve "Extended dash" speeds of M3  in the mid 70's. 

So more for the general hypersonics thread.

The rocket equation is pretty steep. Every extra Mach number is good, provided it's not bought at a vast cost. As a launch vehicle long term cruise at high speed is unnecessary. The Phantom II was  a 2 seat vehicle. Drone conversions have flown with an equipment rack fitted in the seat mounting rails, which seem to be quite standardized on military aircraft.  So stripping the weapon systems and possibly most of the "Systems Operator" support could deliver a system up to M4 for long enough to prep and drop a 2nd stage. Maybe
« Last Edit: 12/05/2017 07:13 PM by john smith 19 »
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

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Offline Star One

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #785 on: 12/07/2017 06:25 AM »

For those of us who aren't experts :
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/rascal.htm

Quote
The power plant is comprised of conventional, military gas turbine engines but with a technology enhancement called Mass Injection and Pre-Compressor Cooling (MIPCC) that allows for higher Mach number and altitude operation. This capability is required for the MPV to accomplish a zoom maneuver in which the vehicle accelerates as it climbs to very high altitude. There it deploys the expendable upper stage that places the payload on obit. The reusable MPV then decelerates upon reentry and lands on a conventional runway.

... which makes it sound like a true pre-cursor to SABRE and so fortunate that something that similar was done that the equipment could be reused.

Great link full of ads (even with an ad blocker) and doesn’t even format properly on a mobile browser, which makes it virtually impossible to read what the article says.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #786 on: 12/07/2017 08:17 AM »
An amusing diversion from the tech talk, but still on topic  ;)

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16742530/visions-ventures-escape-velocities-anthology-ebook-arizona-state-university-science-fiction
Searched the book.
No sign of "Skylon" or "Reaction engines"
Want to reference which stories are relevant or move to the entertainment section?
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #787 on: 12/07/2017 08:31 AM »

For those of us who aren't experts :
https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/rascal.htm

... which makes it sound like a true pre-cursor to SABRE and so fortunate that something that similar was done that the equipment could be reused.
No. A "true" precursor was the work "Aerospace" plane work in the US in the late 50's/early 60's using the "Liquid Air Cycle Engine"  and LH2 to liquefy air. This required a lot more LH2 (and SABRE C2 needed about 5x the LH2 it actually needed to burn to get the stated thrust level). Bond's realization that you could get near LO2 density without going to LO2, was a key breakthrough to making SABRE viable, as was an actual solution to the frost control problem.
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline oddbodd

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #788 on: 12/07/2017 11:22 AM »
An amusing diversion from the tech talk, but still on topic  ;)

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16742530/visions-ventures-escape-velocities-anthology-ebook-arizona-state-university-science-fiction
Searched the book.
No sign of "Skylon" or "Reaction engines"
Want to reference which stories are relevant or move to the entertainment section?

Obviously I was being a bit too "cute" with my cryptic message. ;) It was just about the cover artwork having two very prominent Skylon vehicles in it, not the book itself. I wondered when I saw it whether REL have some kind of implicit/explicit copyright of the Skylon design, and whether or not the artist would of had to have sought permission to use the likeness in his work.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #789 on: 12/07/2017 06:46 PM »
An amusing diversion from the tech talk, but still on topic  ;)

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16742530/visions-ventures-escape-velocities-anthology-ebook-arizona-state-university-science-fiction
Searched the book.
No sign of "Skylon" or "Reaction engines"
Want to reference which stories are relevant or move to the entertainment section?

Obviously I was being a bit too "cute" with my cryptic message. ;) It was just about the cover artwork having two very prominent Skylon vehicles in it, not the book itself. I wondered when I saw it whether REL have some kind of implicit/explicit copyright of the Skylon design, and whether or not the artist would of had to have sought permission to use the likeness in his work.
AFAIK Skylon came out of the REL design process  just after they were formed in the late 80's. They were fairly strapped for cash and I don't think it was ever patented (I'm not sure you can patent an aircraft layout under UK or EU patent law). In any case it's modeled on the Avro 730 M3 reconnaissance plane of the late 50's that fell victim to the Sandy's UK defense review of 1957.

So it also pre-dates Princess Amidala's  starship in the Star Wars films as well by a couple of decades.
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Online nacnud

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Re: The Reaction Engines Skylon/SABRE Master Thread (6)
« Reply #790 on: 12/07/2017 08:46 PM »
I think REL relies on trade secrets rather than patents, as patents can be stolen by governments and run out after 20 years anyway. It's almost as if they knew this would take a long time...

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