Russia has announced that it intends to build a base on the moon within 20 years, which it plans to use as a staging post for a manned mission to Mars. The promise was made as Prime Minister Vladimir Putin chaired a meeting on Russia's space program just days ahead of the 50th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin becoming the first human in space. The Kremlin is using Tuesday's anniversary to boost patriotic sentiment and briefing documents handed out before the Putin's meeting showed it is determined to restore the nation's space-program to its Soviet-era glory. "Above all, we are talking about flights to the moon and the creation of a base close to its north pole where there is likely to be a source of water," the briefing document said. ...Lev Zelyony, director of Russia's Space Research Institute, said it should first focus on the moon, predicting a new space race because of the recent discovery of water there. "Where there are resources, there is always competition."
Using existing experience of cooperation, we propose to combine the efforts of States Parties to the ISS program for implementation of projects studying the Moon, Mars and other planets in our solar system. We have here your suggestions. We know the reaction of our partners, we are studying this reaction, and we will choose the most suitable, the most interesting for our country cooperation options. Please also Roskosmos jointly with the Russian Academy of Sciences to prepare plans for research and space exploration for the long term and results in August this year reported to the Government.
Energy-rich Russia's space budget for 2010-2011 is 200 billion roubles ($7.09 billion), which Putin said made it the world's fourth-largest spender on space after U.S. space agency NASA, the European Space Agency and France.
Here is a link to Putin's speech. Actually, now that I read it, his intentions regarding the Moon are rather mysterious.
There is no race any more.
Indeed. In order to have a race, you need at least 2 participants. Russia is about to win by default...
Quote from: aquanaut99 on 04/12/2011 12:59 pmIndeed. In order to have a race, you need at least 2 participants. Russia is about to win by default...You're overestimating the number of contestants by 1.
More likely, by 2.
You don't have to race when you are the only one on the track.
Russia was the last country to land anything on the moon in 1976. Just to annoy the heck out of Chinese who plan to land Chang'e 3 in 2013, they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun before that.
There are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects. I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology.
Quote from: savuporo on 04/12/2011 03:40 pmRussia was the last country to land anything on the moon in 1976. Just to annoy the heck out of Chinese who plan to land Chang'e 3 in 2013, they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun before that.To retain their title of "last country to land anything on the moon" they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun just after the Chang'e landing.
1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
With all of this talk of moon bases, I wonder if the MLM is fully funded and being prepared for flight next year?
Quote from: Danderman on 04/12/2011 02:39 pm1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.Partially agreed. It doesn't sound like much specific is being detailed here, but that the comments are coming from Putin himself is significant.Putin has lately been talking a lot about reviving Russia's aerospace relevance. Increasing activity in their space program could help redevelop the engineering talent and infrastructure to support this.Recall also that one of the Russian poster's here dug up mention a couple months ago that Russia was funding renewed work on nuclear thermal rockets as in-space propulsion.I at least hope this is another real sign that Russia is trying to turn things around for their own program, and being involved in an international program keeps the scale reasonable.An international Mars mission in the 2030 time frame using a Russian-built, nuclear-powered departure/return stage appeals to me.Quote from: PahTo on 04/12/2011 03:58 pmWith all of this talk of moon bases, I wonder if the MLM is fully funded and being prepared for flight next year?Ouch!
An international Mars mission in the 2030 time frame using a Russian-built, nuclear-powered departure/return stage appeals to me.
They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision,
Quote from: MadameConcorde on 04/12/2011 07:37 pmThere are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects. I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology. They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...
Putin has lately been talking a lot about reviving Russia's aerospace relevance. Increasing activity in their space program could help redevelop the engineering talent and infrastructure to support this.
Quote from: aquanaut99 on 04/12/2011 08:01 pmQuote from: MadameConcorde on 04/12/2011 07:37 pmThere are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects. I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology. They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...The Russians don't have a launch vehicle that can send a crewed spacecraft beyond LEO. And they don't seem to have the money to develop that launch vehicle.Nor do they have a unified vision in which such a mission makes sense.
Quote from: Danderman on 04/12/2011 11:53 pmQuote from: aquanaut99 on 04/12/2011 08:01 pmQuote from: MadameConcorde on 04/12/2011 07:37 pmThere are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects. I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology. They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...The Russians don't have a launch vehicle that can send a crewed spacecraft beyond LEO. And they don't seem to have the money to develop that launch vehicle.Nor do they have a unified vision in which such a mission makes sense.Um, yes, they do. They have since the 1960's:ProtonHere's a photograph of a Proton being prepared for manned flight, where it launched it's modified Soyuz to a lunar mission, Zond:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Proton_Zond_Launch.jpg
From what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones.
Quote from: Diagoras on 04/08/2011 02:22 pmFrom what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones. Sort of like "newspace" commercial companies, thus far at least!
Um, yes, they do. They have since the 1960's
Space Adventures has been pitching Soyuz based lunar flyby for ages.Seehttp://money.cnn.com/2005/08/10/news/funny/moontrip/index.htmEDIT: More recent update on this:http://moonandback.com/2011/02/03/top-russian-official-says-negligible-upgrade-needed-for-lunar-trip/
Quote from: vt_hokie on 04/13/2011 02:19 amQuote from: Diagoras on 04/08/2011 02:22 pmFrom what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones. Sort of like "newspace" commercial companies, thus far at least! Really? Obvious troll is obvious.QuoteUm, yes, they do. They have since the 1960'sHow long would it take the Russians to get their hardware capable of recreating an Apollo 8, in people's opinion? Could they do it as soon as announced? Two years? Four?
Quote from: savuporo on 04/13/2011 03:03 pmSpace Adventures has been pitching Soyuz based lunar flyby for ages.Seehttp://money.cnn.com/2005/08/10/news/funny/moontrip/index.htmEDIT: More recent update on this:http://moonandback.com/2011/02/03/top-russian-official-says-negligible-upgrade-needed-for-lunar-trip/But isn't a fly-by different from an Apollo 8 lunar orbit? Or am I getting mixed up?
The Proton is a reliable rocket, well suited to the job. It would be more than capable of this role, and all of the needed equipment is ready. It is a case of will, rather than capability, which keeps them from doing so.
That would accomplish a lunar flyby an even more capable mission could be accomplished via LEO rendezvous.Really all you need is a mostly full Block-D launched by Proton.
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space. I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.
Quote from: John Duncan on 04/12/2011 03:34 pmYou don't have to race when you are the only one on the track.That was my point. If you're the only one racing you're still beating all those who don't participate, even if you never arrive...Also, Russia is about to have a monopoly on human spaceflight. That puts them back in the position of world leader
Quote from: Danderman on 04/13/2011 04:20 pmHaving a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space. I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.Not quite. Russia runs Soyuz today. We don't run Apollo today. Proton was designed for manned flight, Delta is not. We don't have the latent capability to return people to the moon, not without new systems. Russia does, without the need to invest in new technologies, nor even to build or develop anything other than what they are already doing.This capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations. They have no compelling reason to actually do so.
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.
Quote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 04:27 pmQuote from: Danderman on 04/13/2011 04:20 pmHaving a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space. I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.Not quite. Russia runs Soyuz today. We don't run Apollo today. Proton was designed for manned flight, Delta is not. We don't have the latent capability to return people to the moon, not without new systems. Russia does, without the need to invest in new technologies, nor even to build or develop anything other than what they are already doing.This capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations. They have no compelling reason to actually do so.Show me their lander.
Quote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 04:27 pmThis capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.No they don't. They have almost everything needed for a *flyby* not *orbit*. That's one of the reasons this concept isn't really very attractive: As cool as it would be, it doesn't make much of an incremental building block for exploration. If you want to get into orbit or land, you still have lots of development to do, and the flyby doesn't buy you much in that direction.
If we can find 1 more billionaire willing to pay 150 million for the trip, then it'll happen. After that, it could be repeated. Even if it is only once per decade, it's still better than anything that happened over the past 40 years.
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations. They have no compelling reason to actually do so.
Quote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 04:27 pmThis capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations. They have no compelling reason to actually do so. Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?
Quote from: Danderman on 04/13/2011 05:36 pmQuote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 04:27 pmThis capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations. They have no compelling reason to actually do so. Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?No, it just means that they have the capacity should a vision ever be gained. But without that, it remains just a capability which they possess which is not being utilized in this particular manner. It is similar to Chinese submarines, they are capable of deep sea operation, but they operate only within 150 miles of their coast.
Quote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 05:43 pmQuote from: Danderman on 04/13/2011 05:36 pmQuote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 04:27 pmThis capacity is there, right now, with Russia. They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations. They have no compelling reason to actually do so. Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?No, it just means that they have the capacity should a vision ever be gained. But without that, it remains just a capability which they possess which is not being utilized in this particular manner. It is similar to Chinese submarines, they are capable of deep sea operation, but they operate only within 150 miles of their coast.In other words, Putin has not announced a lunar base nor really anything that means anything.
What piece is missing for Orbit?
Putin announced such an operation, as pointed out at the beginning of the thread
Quote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 05:16 pmWhat piece is missing for Orbit?A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Quote from: hop on 04/13/2011 08:05 pmQuote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 05:16 pmWhat piece is missing for Orbit?A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread.
Quote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 01:06 amQuote from: hop on 04/13/2011 08:05 pmQuote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 05:16 pmWhat piece is missing for Orbit?A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.
How about this: Translunar injection delta v = 3.25 km/secDelta v to L2 = 3.43 km/secDelta v back to Earth = 0.34 km/secTotal delta v = 3.77 km/secSo maybe if they could coax a few hundred extra m/sec out of it, they could visit L2, loiter for a little while, and then head back. That would be a true first possibly doable with what they've already got.....
Quote from: Jorge on 04/14/2011 01:22 amQuote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 01:06 amQuote from: hop on 04/13/2011 08:05 pmQuote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 05:16 pmWhat piece is missing for Orbit?A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.Yes, the 1968 version of Proton is indeed only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar mission. This is not 1968. Since then, Proton has had a payload improvement of ~22% from around 5500 kg TLI to almost 7000 kg.
Quote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 01:28 amQuote from: Jorge on 04/14/2011 01:22 amQuote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 01:06 amQuote from: hop on 04/13/2011 08:05 pmQuote from: Downix on 04/13/2011 05:16 pmWhat piece is missing for Orbit?A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.Yes, the 1968 version of Proton is indeed only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar mission. This is not 1968. Since then, Proton has had a payload improvement of ~22% from around 5500 kg TLI to almost 7000 kg.That is barely enough performance to allow the Soyuz (~6800 kg) to keep its orbital module (vs. Zond, which had only the descent and service modules). I don't think it's enough to support LOI/TEI, even if you launched the Soyuz separately a la CSI's proposal. (Or at least I'm not going to believe it until someone shows me the numbers.)
Proton, with lower payload capacity, handled flyby missions with Zond in the 1960's. Since then we have improved it's performance. It is more than capable of doing the mission on it's own.
Never said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module.
Quote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 01:06 amProton, with lower payload capacity, handled flyby missions with Zond in the 1960's. Since then we have improved it's performance. It is more than capable of doing the mission on it's own. Actually, AFAIK, Proton-M shows a lunar capability of 5500 kg, less than the mass of a Zond, let alone Soyuz. And nowhere near close to sending a Soyuz with some sort of extra prop tank into lunar orbit.
Quote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 03:01 amNever said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module. How long do you expect your crew to spend in just a DM ? Even the Zond swingby would have been pretty rough. Soyuz is cozy even with the BO.If you do pull it off, it's still just a short duration stunt that isn't a useful stepping stone to an actual exploration.
Quote from: Warren Platts on 04/13/2011 05:14 pmHow about this: Translunar injection delta v = 3.25 km/secDelta v to L2 = 3.43 km/secDelta v back to Earth = 0.34 km/secTotal delta v = 3.77 km/secSo maybe if they could coax a few hundred extra m/sec out of it, they could visit L2, loiter for a little while, and then head back. That would be a true first possibly doable with what they've already got.....Particularly if the Russians leave behind a communications satellite at EML2. Currently spacecraft and surface rovers on the far-side of the Moon cannot contact Earth. This would count as two firsts.
President Medvedev visits Jaroslav Air Defence Academy. Preparations.http://fishki.net/comment.php?id=86542
Quote from: hop on 04/14/2011 04:46 amQuote from: Downix on 04/14/2011 03:01 amNever said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module. How long do you expect your crew to spend in just a DM ? Even the Zond swingby would have been pretty rough. Soyuz is cozy even with the BO.If you do pull it off, it's still just a short duration stunt that isn't a useful stepping stone to an actual exploration.The discussion is on technical capability, not on comfort or long duration. The statement was made that the Russians have no capability, which is false. They do have the capability for a single launch lunar mission. If it is a useful mission is another matter. You are correct, it would be a stunt, not a practical mission. A practical mission would be a two step mission, launching first a large hypergolic stage. Then you launch your standard Soyuz, which docks with it. Once docked, the stage ignites, sending your much larger, more practical mission on its way.
the misleading title of this thread, which makes an unproven assertion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9141416/Russia-to-finally-send-man-to-the-Moon.htmlAnother Russian moon plan (or the same one?).
I heard about this on the radio this morning:Russia plans moon base, Mars mission: Promise made 50 years after Gagarin's voyageQuoteRussia has announced that it intends to build a base on the moon within 20 years, which it plans to use as a staging post for a manned mission to Mars. The promise was made as Prime Minister Vladimir Putin chaired a meeting on Russia's space program just days ahead of the 50th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin becoming the first human in space. The Kremlin is using Tuesday's anniversary to boost patriotic sentiment and briefing documents handed out before the Putin's meeting showed it is determined to restore the nation's space-program to its Soviet-era glory. "Above all, we are talking about flights to the moon and the creation of a base close to its north pole where there is likely to be a source of water," the briefing document said. ...Lev Zelyony, director of Russia's Space Research Institute, said it should first focus on the moon, predicting a new space race because of the recent discovery of water there. "Where there are resources, there is always competition." (my emphasis)This is from Prime Minister Putin himself.I keep tellin' ya: if we keep snoozing, we're going to finish in 2nd (or 3rd) place....
The moon is not an intermediate point in the [space] race, it is a separate, even a self-contained goal. It would hardly be rational to make some ten or twenty flights to the moon, and then wind it all up and fly to the Mars or some asteroids. This process has the beginning, but has no end: we are going to come to the moon forever.
I am bumping this for the benefit of anyone who believes anything that Russian politicians say on Cosmonautics Day.
Quote from: Dmitry RogozinThe moon is not an intermediate point in the [space] race, it is a separate, even a self-contained goal. It would hardly be rational to make some ten or twenty flights to the moon, and then wind it all up and fly to the Mars or some asteroids. This process has the beginning, but has no end: we are going to come to the moon forever.He is right, but so what? Putin is too busy resurrecting Soviet Union, and no one else in Russia would be able to make this kind of political decision to finance Moon base.
"Construction of the first stage of Russia's super-rocket - capable of lifting 80 tonnes - is already underway, according to Roscosmos chief Oleg Ostapenko."
And from the Man in the news: It isn't just the red planet that Russia is planning to conquer. Earlier this month, deputy premier Dmitry Rogozin said: 'We are coming to the moon forever.'
gas and oil prices are depressed ATM and Russia is losing its biggest customer (EU), so no mirabolant space projects for a while.... Putin will be too busy in buying weaponry to invest in anything else. Moreover, if US and EU get some degree of human spaceflight independently (which looks done for US from 2017 onwards, and possibly for EU from 2025 onwards) a big financing source for russian space programs disappear.....Russia is not interested in science, has no private business to carry out private space investment, and classical gvt customers are trying to get out of it....... so I guess LOT of Kremlin's sponsored activity (military first of all) will be needed to keep the Russin space agency to the current activity levels, let alone increase them....
Politicians are like teenagers - they spend until the bank bounces the cheques.
>Hydrocarbon prices--for liquid petroleum--are only going to increase. If Saudi Arabia goes down in flames, Russia will be the world's biggest oil exporter.
The U.S. will surpass Russia and Saudi Arabia as the world’s top oil producer by 2015, and be close to energy self-sufficiency in the next two decades, amid booming output from shale formations, the IEA said.>