Author Topic: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary  (Read 44697 times)

Offline Warren Platts

I heard about this on the radio this morning:


Russia plans moon base, Mars mission: Promise made 50 years after Gagarin's voyage

Quote
Russia has announced that it intends to build a base on the moon within 20 years, which it plans to use as a staging post for a manned mission to Mars.
 
The promise was made as Prime Minister Vladimir Putin chaired a meeting on Russia's space program just days ahead of the 50th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin becoming the first human in space.
 
The Kremlin is using Tuesday's anniversary to boost patriotic sentiment and briefing documents handed out before the Putin's meeting showed it is determined to restore the nation's space-program to its Soviet-era glory.
 
"Above all, we are talking about flights to the moon and the creation of a base close to its north pole where there is likely to be a source of water," the briefing document said. ...

Lev Zelyony, director of Russia's Space Research Institute, said it should first focus on the moon, predicting a new space race because of the recent discovery of water there. "Where there are resources, there is always competition."
(my emphasis)

This is from Prime Minister Putin himself.

I keep tellin' ya: if we keep snoozing, we're going to finish in 2nd (or 3rd) place....
« Last Edit: 04/08/2011 03:27 pm by Warren Platts »
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Offline Diagoras

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #1 on: 04/08/2011 02:22 pm »
From what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones. Is there any reason to believe that this time is any different? For example, is there money being allocated to these supposed programs? Is there the long-term political will to carry them out?
"It’s the typical binary world of 'NASA is great' or 'cancel the space program,' with no nuance or understanding of the underlying issues and pathologies of the space industrial complex."

Offline Space Pete

Meh, if I had a pound for every time Roscosmos announced these types of plans, then I'd have enough money to build a Moon base myself. :)

Having said that, Roscosmos funding is now at a higher level than it's been since the space race, due to increased revenue from sales of Russian oil & gas. At least Russian politicians are looking to the future in space - which is more than the US Congress are doing.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2011 02:39 pm by Space Pete »
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Offline Warren Platts

The article says that their current budget is $6.7 billion CAD. That's quite a bit, and I suspect they pay their employees a little less than the average NASA man or woman. If they marshalled their resources carefully,  I think they could do it.

Hydrocarbon prices--for liquid petroleum--are only going to increase. If Saudi Arabia goes down in flames, Russia will be the world's biggest oil exporter.
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Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #4 on: 04/08/2011 02:43 pm »
There is no race any more.

I know it will probably fall on deaf ears, but I'm throwing it out there regardless. Carry on.
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #5 on: 04/08/2011 03:02 pm »
Here is the Roskosmos take on this story:

http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=11628

http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=11628

"Russia will boost its efforts to explore the solar system and seek a bigger share of the market for space launches in the next decade, Prime Minister Vladmir Putin said on Thursday.

Speaking ahead of the 50th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin's pioneering space flight, Putin said Russia's plans go beyond transporting crews to the International Space Station.

"Russia should not limit itself to the role of an international space ferryman. We need to increase our presence on the global space market," Putin told space and other government officials at his residence outside Moscow.

Energy-rich Russia's space budget for 2010-2011 is 200 billion roubles ($7.09 billion), which Putin said made it the world's fourth-largest spender on space after U.S. space agency NASA, the European Space Agency and France.

"Such resources enable us to set serious goals," Putin said."


Basically, a vague expression of interest in someday doing something.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2011 03:34 pm by Danderman »

Offline Warren Platts

Huh? The page you linked to, once I run it through Google TranslateTM is to an interview with an ISS cosmonaut.

Here is a link to Putin's speech. Actually, now that I read it, his intentions regarding the Moon are rather mysterious.

Quote from: Vladimir Putin
Using existing experience of cooperation, we propose to combine the efforts of States Parties to the ISS program for implementation of projects studying the Moon, Mars and other planets in our solar system. We have here your suggestions. We know the reaction of our partners, we are studying this reaction, and we will choose the most suitable, the most interesting for our country cooperation options. Please also Roskosmos jointly with the Russian Academy of Sciences to prepare plans for research and space exploration for the long term and results in August this year reported to the Government.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2011 03:27 pm by Warren Platts »
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #7 on: 04/08/2011 03:36 pm »
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Offline simonbp

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #8 on: 04/08/2011 03:50 pm »
Energy-rich Russia's space budget for 2010-2011 is 200 billion roubles ($7.09 billion), which Putin said made it the world's fourth-largest spender on space after U.S. space agency NASA, the European Space Agency and France.

And I don't know if that should make the Russians depressed that they behind France, or the French depressed that the Russians seem to get a lot more for their money...
« Last Edit: 04/08/2011 03:51 pm by simonbp »

Offline grdja

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #9 on: 04/08/2011 05:01 pm »
Oh there could well be a race. With couple more years of incredible good luck, we could have race between SpaceX&Bieglow and Russia.

Offline Halidon

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #10 on: 04/08/2011 07:24 pm »
Russia's made similar comments about their military, with mixed results to show for it. Though since they bought the Mistrals from France, maybe they'd be interested in doing a joint program with Europe.

Offline hop

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #11 on: 04/08/2011 08:38 pm »
Here is a link to Putin's speech. Actually, now that I read it, his intentions regarding the Moon are rather mysterious.
I don't see anything mysterious. A vague suggestion they should do something on the moon or Mars, preferably with unspecified "international partners" who would presumably foot a substantial part of the bill.

Certainly no major new policy initiatives spelled out there, let alone a moon base. Notice that most of the speech focused on things like GLONASS, Angara, and paying tribute to past glory. Despite the  positive tone, the subtext of the first two is none too subtle.

Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #12 on: 04/12/2011 12:59 pm »
There is no race any more.

Indeed. In order to have a race, you need at least 2 participants.

Russia is about to win by default...

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #13 on: 04/12/2011 01:23 pm »
Indeed. In order to have a race, you need at least 2 participants.

Russia is about to win by default...

You're overestimating the number of contestants by 1.
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #14 on: 04/12/2011 01:30 pm »
Indeed. In order to have a race, you need at least 2 participants.

Russia is about to win by default...

You're overestimating the number of contestants by 1.

More likely, by 2.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #15 on: 04/12/2011 02:39 pm »
As a service to the readers here, in regards to spectacular Russian claims about future projects, there are two principles to keep in mind:

1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

2) If the news article about a spectacular new project references a scientist from IKI, then the story is worthless, because the news reporter doesn't have a clue about Russian space.

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #16 on: 04/12/2011 02:40 pm »
More likely, by 2.

I don't know how many contestants different people perceive in this modern phantom (i.e. not really there) space race. To clarify, I count 0.
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Offline John Duncan

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #17 on: 04/12/2011 03:34 pm »
You don't have to race when you are the only one on the track.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #18 on: 04/12/2011 03:40 pm »
Russia was the last country to land anything on the moon in 1976.
Just to annoy the heck out of Chinese who plan to land Chang'e 3 in 2013, they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun before that.
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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #19 on: 04/12/2011 03:49 pm »
You don't have to race when you are the only one on the track.

That was my point. If you're the only one racing you're still beating all those who don't participate, even if you never arrive...

Also, Russia is about to have a monopoly on human spaceflight. That puts them back in the position of world leader they already occupied in 1961 - 1965 and 1975 - 1981. This time, though, it may be for much longer (perhaps until the Chinese overtake them sometime in the late 2020s or early 2030s...)

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #20 on: 04/12/2011 03:58 pm »

With all of this talk of moon bases, I wonder if the MLM is fully funded and being prepared for flight next year?

Offline Warren Platts

Pretty much all they need is a lander. There budget apparently is $7B USD/year, apparently. That's enough, if they're smart about how they spend it. They could do an Apollo 8 rerun within a couple of months, if they really wanted to.
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Offline sdsds

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #22 on: 04/12/2011 06:58 pm »
Russia was the last country to land anything on the moon in 1976.
Just to annoy the heck out of Chinese who plan to land Chang'e 3 in 2013, they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun before that.

To retain their title of "last country to land anything on the moon" they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun just after the Chang'e landing.
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Offline starsalor

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #23 on: 04/12/2011 07:03 pm »
I would really like to see a Soyuz do an " Apollo 8 " style mission ! That ,my friends, in itself would be enough to light the race fires again ! Think of it..How many Americans would stand still for the Russian to establish the " High-Ground "  ???
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Offline MadameConcorde

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #24 on: 04/12/2011 07:37 pm »
There are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects.

I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology. If there are investors putting down money then there is no doubt that they will do it.
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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #25 on: 04/12/2011 08:01 pm »
There are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects.

I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology.

They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #26 on: 04/12/2011 08:07 pm »
I'll never understand the neo-space race fantasist mentality...
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Offline Chris Bergin

If this Russian decided he wanted to do space flight, he'd dominate.



He's into throwing money into black holes, like Chelsea :D

Second richest man in the world I think.
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #28 on: 04/12/2011 08:14 pm »
Russia was the last country to land anything on the moon in 1976.
Just to annoy the heck out of Chinese who plan to land Chang'e 3 in 2013, they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun before that.

To retain their title of "last country to land anything on the moon" they should do a modernized Lunokhod rerun just after the Chang'e landing.

Compare :
"Our Change'3 is the first probe to land on the moon this century ! Its been 37 years since anyone has been able to accomplish that ! See the live HD video from the lunar surface, nobody has done that before !"

To:
"Our probe landed on the moon, just like Russians did .. last week. Its been all over the news .."
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Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #29 on: 04/12/2011 08:14 pm »
1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Partially agreed. It doesn't sound like much specific is being detailed here, but that the comments are coming from Putin himself is significant.

Putin has lately been talking a lot about reviving Russia's aerospace relevance. Increasing activity in their space program could help redevelop the engineering talent and infrastructure to support this.

Recall also that one of the Russian poster's here dug up mention a couple months ago that Russia was funding renewed work on nuclear thermal rockets as in-space propulsion.

I at least hope this is another real sign that Russia is trying to turn things around for their own program, and being involved in an international program keeps the scale reasonable.

An international Mars mission in the 2030 time frame using a Russian-built, nuclear-powered departure/return stage appeals to me.


With all of this talk of moon bases, I wonder if the MLM is fully funded and being prepared for flight next year?

Ouch!

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #30 on: 04/12/2011 08:22 pm »
1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Partially agreed. It doesn't sound like much specific is being detailed here, but that the comments are coming from Putin himself is significant.

Putin has lately been talking a lot about reviving Russia's aerospace relevance. Increasing activity in their space program could help redevelop the engineering talent and infrastructure to support this.

Recall also that one of the Russian poster's here dug up mention a couple months ago that Russia was funding renewed work on nuclear thermal rockets as in-space propulsion.

I at least hope this is another real sign that Russia is trying to turn things around for their own program, and being involved in an international program keeps the scale reasonable.

An international Mars mission in the 2030 time frame using a Russian-built, nuclear-powered departure/return stage appeals to me.


With all of this talk of moon bases, I wonder if the MLM is fully funded and being prepared for flight next year?

Ouch!

That was one of the big mistakes of CxP in the US it put too much emphasis on the LV and almost none on the deep space systems.

The irony was CxP could have gotten a return to the moon but it would have destroyed any technological lead the US had in the process.
Griffin was paying for Ares by raiding the R&D programs.

I expect Spacex and Bigelow to attempt a lunar landing using Falcon Heavy which can easily support an Apollo class mission with two launches.

There is a race and we have at least three contestants between Russia ,private US companies,and China.
« Last Edit: 04/12/2011 08:28 pm by Patchouli »

Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #31 on: 04/12/2011 08:25 pm »
An international Mars mission in the 2030 time frame using a Russian-built, nuclear-powered departure/return stage appeals to me.

Greenpeace and Co. will go ape$hit if the Russians announce they will launch a nuclear reactor into space...
« Last Edit: 04/12/2011 08:25 pm by aquanaut99 »

Offline hop

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #32 on: 04/12/2011 08:29 pm »
They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision,
This is just wishful thinking. There is zero evidence of that they have any serious plans beyond ISS, let alone the will to fund it.

Offline grdja

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #33 on: 04/12/2011 08:34 pm »
Greenpeace mostly doesn't know there is world outside of USA. And Russia has launched dozens and dozens of full reactors and RTG powered satellites without anyone complaining much.

Now otoh if EU or USA wanted to launch a nuclear powered anything...

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #34 on: 04/12/2011 11:51 pm »

With all of this talk of moon bases, I wonder if the MLM is fully funded and being prepared for flight next year?

My impression is that Putin has not been to convey all necessary funding to Khrunichev at this time.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #35 on: 04/12/2011 11:53 pm »
There are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects.

I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology.

They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...

The Russians don't have a launch vehicle that can send a crewed spacecraft beyond LEO. And they don't seem to have the money to develop that launch vehicle.

Nor do they have a unified vision in which such a mission makes sense.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #36 on: 04/12/2011 11:57 pm »

Putin has lately been talking a lot about reviving Russia's aerospace relevance. Increasing activity in their space program could help redevelop the engineering talent and infrastructure to support this.

It would be newsworthy if Putin stopped promising funding for the space program. For example, if Putin were to state that the real budget for Russian space would decline, that would be something new. Putin *always* promises big things for the Russian program Real Soon Now, specifically because a lot of people believe him.

I am sure that there are people who believe that the Russian program is well funded today, on the basis of Putin's 2005 promises.



Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #37 on: 04/13/2011 12:11 am »
There are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects.

I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology.

They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...

The Russians don't have a launch vehicle that can send a crewed spacecraft beyond LEO. And they don't seem to have the money to develop that launch vehicle.

Nor do they have a unified vision in which such a mission makes sense.

Um, yes, they do.  They have since the 1960's:

Proton

Here's a photograph of a Proton being prepared for manned flight, where it launched it's modified Soyuz to a lunar mission, Zond:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Proton_Zond_Launch.jpg
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #38 on: 04/13/2011 12:54 am »
There are a lot of Russian entrepreneurs with tons of money. They can invest it in Space projects.

I would to see these Moon projects taking shape. Russia can do it. They have the technology.

They have the technology. Soon, they will have the money. And most importantly, they have vision, the very thing which is totally absent in the US of A...

The Russians don't have a launch vehicle that can send a crewed spacecraft beyond LEO. And they don't seem to have the money to develop that launch vehicle.

Nor do they have a unified vision in which such a mission makes sense.

Um, yes, they do.  They have since the 1960's:

Proton

Here's a photograph of a Proton being prepared for manned flight, where it launched it's modified Soyuz to a lunar mission, Zond:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Proton_Zond_Launch.jpg

That would accomplish a lunar flyby an even more capable mission could be accomplished via LEO rendezvous.
Really all you need is a mostly full Block-D launched by Proton.

Though I think the present proton has more TLI throw then the 1970 variant.
I even seen a surface mission that required about 4 Proton and two Soyuz launches.

With a Fregat added to the lunar train you could even enter lunar orbit.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_acts.html
« Last Edit: 04/13/2011 01:01 am by Patchouli »

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #39 on: 04/13/2011 02:19 am »
From what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones.

Sort of like "newspace" commercial companies, thus far at least! 

Offline Diagoras

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #40 on: 04/13/2011 02:50 pm »
From what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones.

Sort of like "newspace" commercial companies, thus far at least! 

Really? Obvious troll is obvious.

Quote
Um, yes, they do.  They have since the 1960's

How long would it take the Russians to get their hardware capable of recreating an Apollo 8, in people's opinion? Could they do it as soon as announced? Two years? Four?
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Offline savuporo

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« Last Edit: 04/13/2011 03:04 pm by savuporo »
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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #42 on: 04/13/2011 03:10 pm »
Space Adventures has been pitching Soyuz based lunar flyby for ages.
See
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/10/news/funny/moontrip/index.htm
EDIT: More recent update on this:

http://moonandback.com/2011/02/03/top-russian-official-says-negligible-upgrade-needed-for-lunar-trip/


Anyone care to guess who that first US$150 million ticket-holder "whom most people would recognize" could be?

I'm thinking of Richard Branson...

Offline Diagoras

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #43 on: 04/13/2011 03:16 pm »
Space Adventures has been pitching Soyuz based lunar flyby for ages.
See
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/10/news/funny/moontrip/index.htm
EDIT: More recent update on this:

http://moonandback.com/2011/02/03/top-russian-official-says-negligible-upgrade-needed-for-lunar-trip/


But isn't a fly-by different from an Apollo 8 lunar orbit? Or am I getting mixed up?
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Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #44 on: 04/13/2011 03:18 pm »
From what I recall, Russia has a long history of promising spectacular actions and delivering more mundane ones.

Sort of like "newspace" commercial companies, thus far at least! 

Really? Obvious troll is obvious.

Quote
Um, yes, they do.  They have since the 1960's

How long would it take the Russians to get their hardware capable of recreating an Apollo 8, in people's opinion? Could they do it as soon as announced? Two years? Four?
Effectively as soon as announced, providing there was a spare Soyuz.  If not, it would be a delay of 12 months to purchase a special order.  Otherwise, all other equipment is already in place, ready to use, so I understand. 

The Proton is a reliable rocket, well suited to the job.  It would be more than capable of this role, and all of the needed equipment is ready.  It is a case of will, rather than capability, which keeps them from doing so.
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Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #45 on: 04/13/2011 03:22 pm »
Space Adventures has been pitching Soyuz based lunar flyby for ages.
See
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/10/news/funny/moontrip/index.htm
EDIT: More recent update on this:

http://moonandback.com/2011/02/03/top-russian-official-says-negligible-upgrade-needed-for-lunar-trip/


But isn't a fly-by different from an Apollo 8 lunar orbit? Or am I getting mixed up?
Technically correct.  Apollo 8 did lunar orbit.  This would be a Zond mission, out and back.  Different in that you'd not be staying in lunar orbit.
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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #46 on: 04/13/2011 03:57 pm »
The Proton is a reliable rocket, well suited to the job.  It would be more than capable of this role, and all of the needed equipment is ready.  It is a case of will, rather than capability, which keeps them from doing so.

Indeed. They had the capability to do this since the 1960s. Soyuz and Proton were originally designed for exactly this kind of mission.

I would really love it if such a space tourist flight took place this decade, even if it is just a single, one-off stunt with 2 paying passengers. Because it would prove once and for all that a huge HLV is not required to go BLEO (assuming it works, ofc).

Darn it, why don't I have a spare 150 million lying around... I'd buy that second seat right now and... Poyekhali!
« Last Edit: 04/13/2011 03:59 pm by aquanaut99 »

Offline cro-magnon gramps

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #47 on: 04/13/2011 04:13 pm »
Putin is all about restoring Russian (read CCCP) Honor and Glory; he is probably the closest they have to a JFK; he has the Charisma to pull this off; to me he has just thrown down the gauntlet to the west, now the question is, who is going to pick it up; and while we like to think in terms of "The Cold War Space Race", this is the 21st century, and that scenario is not likely; this is an era of co-operation; to me he has said, 'We have been there, we look up and dream about it, and we will continue to dream until we get off our backsides and do something about it; WHO IS WITH ME!!" of course that is a para phrase ;)
    on this forum, we have talked a lot about this very idea, of IPs getting together and going to the Moon and Mars; but now we are faced with even the tiniest hint of it, we are seemingly backing off; that makes no sense; we should be grabbing this and pushing it forward, not holding it back with senseless arguments about what can the Russians do or not do; my questions
 1) What has the Space Industry, Gov't and Commercial to say about this; and if there is nothing, perhaps we should question them on it, prod them to make a stand, one way or another;
  2) What can we do together in this decade, to further the 1961 dream of Man in Space

      just my 2 cents

      Cheers
         Gramps
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #48 on: 04/13/2011 04:18 pm »
That would accomplish a lunar flyby an even more capable mission could be accomplished via LEO rendezvous.
Really all you need is a mostly full Block-D launched by Proton.

http://www.constellationservices.com/lunarexpresssmsystem.html

I guess I need to plug this one again. Lots of people have re-invented this wheel.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #49 on: 04/13/2011 04:20 pm »
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space.

I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #50 on: 04/13/2011 04:26 pm »
Oh, look, ESA has vision, too.

 ;D ;D

Offline aquanaut99

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #51 on: 04/13/2011 04:27 pm »
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space.

I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.


If we can find 1 more billionaire willing to pay 150 million for the trip, then it'll happen. After that, it could be repeated. Even if it is only once per decade, it's still better than anything that happened over the past 40 years.

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #52 on: 04/13/2011 04:27 pm »
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space.

I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.

Not quite.  Russia runs Soyuz today.  We don't run Apollo today.  Proton was designed for manned flight, Delta is not.  We don't have the latent capability to return people to the moon, not without new systems.  Russia does, without the need to invest in new technologies, nor even to build or develop anything other than what they are already doing.

This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so. 
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Offline Warren Platts

One thing I noticed when reading some google translations of Russian websites is that they seem as paralyzed by the Moon/Mars false dichotomy as we are....
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline gospacex

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #54 on: 04/13/2011 04:32 pm »
You don't have to race when you are the only one on the track.

That was my point. If you're the only one racing you're still beating all those who don't participate, even if you never arrive...

Also, Russia is about to have a monopoly on human spaceflight. That puts them back in the position of world leader

World leader with what? Slightly uprated R7 and still-hypergolic Proton which is always one major chemical mishap away from being cancelled for good?

Angara is like fusion reactors - always 5 years in the future.

Here's the story of Russian/Kazakh "effort" to refurbish former Energia launch pad for future Angara launches:

(1) bold statements from both countries' officials
(2) establishment of joint companies
(3) buying all critically necessary stuff for said joint companies, such as expensive cars for bosses; cubicles, PCs, internet lines and wireless for workers; and such.
(4) cutting down large parts of old derelict stand for scrap metal. Sell it cheaply to companies owned by bosses' relatives, which resell it at market prices. Note: bosses are ethnically Russians and Kazakhs, so it benefits both sides. No one is complaining.
(5) after a few years, when bold announcements are forgotten, quietly shut joint companies down.

I leave it to your imagination to guess the fate of current bold statements.

Not that NASA is much better. Yes, NASA management doesn't steal $$$ (at least not as blatantly), but the results are somewhat similar - such as $0.5bn Ares I tower.

However, *finally* capitalism kicks in on US side. With any luck, Musk can outperform and obsolete both US-govt and ex-Soviet dinosaurs.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2011 04:33 pm by gospacex »

Offline gospacex

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #55 on: 04/13/2011 04:35 pm »
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space.

I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.

Not quite.  Russia runs Soyuz today.  We don't run Apollo today.  Proton was designed for manned flight, Delta is not.  We don't have the latent capability to return people to the moon, not without new systems.  Russia does, without the need to invest in new technologies, nor even to build or develop anything other than what they are already doing.

This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so.

Show me their lander.

Offline hop

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #56 on: 04/13/2011 04:36 pm »
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.
No they don't. They have almost everything needed for a *flyby* not *orbit*.

That's one of the reasons this concept isn't really very attractive: As cool as it would be, it doesn't make much of an incremental building block for exploration. If you want to get into orbit or land, you still have lots of development to do, and the flyby doesn't buy you much in that direction.

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #57 on: 04/13/2011 04:46 pm »
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space.

I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.

Not quite.  Russia runs Soyuz today.  We don't run Apollo today.  Proton was designed for manned flight, Delta is not.  We don't have the latent capability to return people to the moon, not without new systems.  Russia does, without the need to invest in new technologies, nor even to build or develop anything other than what they are already doing.

This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so.

Show me their lander.
Show me what lander is needed for lunar orbit.
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Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #58 on: 04/13/2011 05:09 pm »
Sorry, didn't mean to troll, I just let my frustration get the better of me. It sucks seeing our existing human spaceflight capability trashed, with nothing to replace it now and no guarantee that anything will be there even 5 years from now. I just want less hype, more substance. Promises count for a lot less than launching actual hardware!

I'd love to see even a "stunt" Soyuz lunar flyby, as it would be an exciting and historic event, despite the lack of much practical value.

Offline Warren Platts

How about this:

Translunar injection delta v = 3.25 km/sec

Delta v to L2 = 3.43 km/sec

Delta v back to Earth = 0.34 km/sec

Total delta v = 3.77 km/sec

So maybe if they could coax a few hundred extra m/sec out of it, they could visit L2, loiter for a little while, and then head back. That would be a true first possibly doable with what they've already got.....
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #60 on: 04/13/2011 05:16 pm »
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.
No they don't. They have almost everything needed for a *flyby* not *orbit*.

That's one of the reasons this concept isn't really very attractive: As cool as it would be, it doesn't make much of an incremental building block for exploration. If you want to get into orbit or land, you still have lots of development to do, and the flyby doesn't buy you much in that direction.
What piece is missing for Orbit?
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #61 on: 04/13/2011 05:35 pm »
If we can find 1 more billionaire willing to pay 150 million for the trip, then it'll happen. After that, it could be repeated. Even if it is only once per decade, it's still better than anything that happened over the past 40 years.

That's called "Chinese Marketing", at least its a variant of that failed approach to business. Chinese Marketing is a pitch for a project/product/service that begins with "if we could get 1% of the Chinese market, this thing will make a billion dollars for us".

In this case, the variant of Chinese marketing is called "trolling for billionaires".

In both variants, the success rate is extremely low.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #62 on: 04/13/2011 05:36 pm »
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so. 

Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #63 on: 04/13/2011 05:40 pm »
Having a latent capability of flying people around the Moon is not the same as having a national vision for major expansion into space.

I can imagine a Russian posting that because the US has Apollo capsules in museums, and has a Delta IV Heavy, that the US has a national vision to return to the Moon. It doesn't make sense.

Not quite.  Russia runs Soyuz today.  We don't run Apollo today.  Proton was designed for manned flight, Delta is not.  We don't have the latent capability to return people to the moon, not without new systems.  Russia does, without the need to invest in new technologies, nor even to build or develop anything other than what they are already doing.

This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so.

Show me their lander.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

 ;D ;D

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #64 on: 04/13/2011 05:43 pm »
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so. 

Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?

No, it just means that they have the capacity should a vision ever be gained.  But without that, it remains just a capability which they possess which is not being utilized in this particular manner.  It is similar to Chinese submarines, they are capable of deep sea operation, but they operate only within 150 miles of their coast.
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #65 on: 04/13/2011 06:27 pm »
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so. 

Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?

No, it just means that they have the capacity should a vision ever be gained.  But without that, it remains just a capability which they possess which is not being utilized in this particular manner.  It is similar to Chinese submarines, they are capable of deep sea operation, but they operate only within 150 miles of their coast.

In other words, Putin has not announced a lunar base nor really anything that means anything.

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #66 on: 04/13/2011 06:37 pm »
This capacity is there, right now, with Russia.  They build, and operate, every piece required for manned lunar space orbital operations.  They have no compelling reason to actually do so. 

Tying this back to the OP, does having this latent capability mean that Russia has a big vision for space exploration?

No, it just means that they have the capacity should a vision ever be gained.  But without that, it remains just a capability which they possess which is not being utilized in this particular manner.  It is similar to Chinese submarines, they are capable of deep sea operation, but they operate only within 150 miles of their coast.

In other words, Putin has not announced a lunar base nor really anything that means anything.

Talk about adding 2+2 and getting 3.  You asked me a direct, question, I directly answered, then you applied that answer to another thread of conversation. 

Putin announced such an operation, as pointed out at the beginning of the thread.  This does not mean a vision as of yet, he needs to convince the Duma, and from my sources inside of Russia there is still some resistance.  If he can convince them, then they will have a vision, and more importantly, they will have all of the technologies necessary for the first step of operations to begin.  Which means, unlike the US announcement for lunar missions in 2006, Russia could begin the preliminary operations immediately, without the need to develop new technologies.  They will need to develop new components for landing, but that is all that they *need* to develop.  (technically they could refurbish the dozen or so LK's, but I would not hold my breath for that)  Capsule, launcher, even long term habitat, all already in service and operating sufficiently today. 

If Putin gets his way, and I suspect he will, they will have a vision by years end.
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Offline hop

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #67 on: 04/13/2011 08:05 pm »
What piece is missing for Orbit?
A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Putin announced such an operation, as pointed out at the beginning of the thread
No he didn't. He made some vague feelgood statements on an important historical anniversary. The record of these turning into concrete actions is very, very poor.

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #68 on: 04/14/2011 01:06 am »
What piece is missing for Orbit?
A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. 

Proton, with lower payload capacity, handled flyby missions with Zond in the 1960's.  Since then we have improved it's performance.  It is more than capable of doing the mission on it's own.  However, the manned access for Proton I believe was removed awhile back.  So, a smarter arrangement would be to do a two launch system, Soyuz on R-7, mission module on Proton, and a single docking action.  You would need to use a Briz-M module for the return burn, as it is hypergolic and does not have the concerns of boiloff for Blok-D, but that is not a major concern.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2011 01:25 am by Downix »
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #69 on: 04/14/2011 01:22 am »
What piece is missing for Orbit?
A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. 


Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.
JRF

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #70 on: 04/14/2011 01:28 am »
What piece is missing for Orbit?
A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. 


Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.
Yes, the 1968 version of Proton is indeed only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar mission.  This is not 1968.  Since then, Proton has had a payload improvement of ~22% from around 5500 kg TLI to almost 7000 kg.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2011 02:08 am by Downix »
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #71 on: 04/14/2011 02:25 am »
How about this:

Translunar injection delta v = 3.25 km/sec

Delta v to L2 = 3.43 km/sec

Delta v back to Earth = 0.34 km/sec

Total delta v = 3.77 km/sec

So maybe if they could coax a few hundred extra m/sec out of it, they could visit L2, loiter for a little while, and then head back. That would be a true first possibly doable with what they've already got.....


Particularly if the Russians leave behind a communications satellite at EML2.  Currently spacecraft and surface rovers on the far-side of the Moon cannot contact Earth.  This would count as two firsts.

Offline Jorge

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #72 on: 04/14/2011 02:30 am »
What piece is missing for Orbit?
A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. 


Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.
Yes, the 1968 version of Proton is indeed only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar mission.  This is not 1968.  Since then, Proton has had a payload improvement of ~22% from around 5500 kg TLI to almost 7000 kg.

That is barely enough performance to allow the Soyuz (~6800 kg) to keep its orbital module (vs. Zond, which had only the descent and service modules). I don't think it's enough to support LOI/TEI, even if you launched the Soyuz separately a la CSI's proposal. (Or at least I'm not going to believe it until someone shows me the numbers.)
JRF

Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #73 on: 04/14/2011 03:01 am »
What piece is missing for Orbit?
A stage big enough to get the Soyuz into lunar orbit and get it back to earth. An LV big enough to launch all this. You could presumably do Podsadka type scenario with enough launches, but it's not a straightforward use of mostly existing capability like the the flyby concept.
Have had since the 1960's for both, as already established earlier in the thread. 


Incorrect. Proton was only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar trajectory, not lunar orbit.
Yes, the 1968 version of Proton is indeed only capable of putting Zond on a circumlunar mission.  This is not 1968.  Since then, Proton has had a payload improvement of ~22% from around 5500 kg TLI to almost 7000 kg.

That is barely enough performance to allow the Soyuz (~6800 kg) to keep its orbital module (vs. Zond, which had only the descent and service modules). I don't think it's enough to support LOI/TEI, even if you launched the Soyuz separately a la CSI's proposal. (Or at least I'm not going to believe it until someone shows me the numbers.)
Never said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module.  Removing that eliminates ~1300 kg, leaving the Service module (~2600 kg) and decent module (~2900 kg).  So, with a total of 5500 kg, we have ~1500 kg of surplus. 

Now, the Ikar stage has a fully fueled mass of 3134 kg.  Adding this, we're only marginally short of delta v for LLO from LEO from a stock Proton, less than 400 m/s.  Ikar can restart up to 50 times, so we burn a bit of it's fuel to gain that delta v, resulting in a total of 1 Soyuz sans OM + an ikar with 1200kg of fuel.  Burning that fuel for the return trip, and viola, you have your mission.
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #74 on: 04/14/2011 04:29 am »

Proton, with lower payload capacity, handled flyby missions with Zond in the 1960's.  Since then we have improved it's performance.  It is more than capable of doing the mission on it's own. 

Actually, AFAIK, Proton-M shows a lunar capability of 5500 kg, less than the mass of a Zond, let alone Soyuz. And nowhere near close to sending a Soyuz with some sort of extra prop tank into lunar orbit.

Offline hop

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #75 on: 04/14/2011 04:46 am »
Never said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module.
How long do you expect your crew to spend in just a DM ? Even the Zond swingby would have been pretty rough. Soyuz is cozy even with the BO.

If you do pull it off, it's still just a short duration stunt that isn't a useful stepping stone to an actual exploration.


Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #76 on: 04/14/2011 04:51 am »

Proton, with lower payload capacity, handled flyby missions with Zond in the 1960's.  Since then we have improved it's performance.  It is more than capable of doing the mission on it's own. 

Actually, AFAIK, Proton-M shows a lunar capability of 5500 kg, less than the mass of a Zond, let alone Soyuz. And nowhere near close to sending a Soyuz with some sort of extra prop tank into lunar orbit.

Ok, studying this some more.  The original Proton-K could deliver 5300 kg TLI.  The initial Proton-M upgrade boosted that to 5500.  Remember, the Proton-M is not a fixed model, it has multiple options, 4th stage options, and even 5th stage options.  While the Briz-M is more common, the Blok-D has slightly higher TLI capabilty.

For example, with Briz-M, the GEO is 2900kg, while with the latest Blok-D is 3200kg.  The Briz-M is also listed as TLI being 5600kg, while with the stretched Blok-D TLI is being listed as 6800kg. 
« Last Edit: 04/14/2011 05:39 am by Downix »
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Offline Downix

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #77 on: 04/14/2011 04:54 am »
Never said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module.
How long do you expect your crew to spend in just a DM ? Even the Zond swingby would have been pretty rough. Soyuz is cozy even with the BO.

If you do pull it off, it's still just a short duration stunt that isn't a useful stepping stone to an actual exploration.

The discussion is on technical capability, not on comfort or long duration.  The statement was made that the Russians have no capability, which is false.  They do have the capability for a single launch lunar mission.  If it is a useful mission is another matter.  You are correct, it would be a stunt, not a practical mission.  A practical mission would be a two step mission, launching first a large hypergolic stage.  Then you launch your standard Soyuz, which docks with it.  Once docked, the stage ignites, sending your much larger, more practical mission on its way.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline gospacex

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #78 on: 04/14/2011 08:22 am »
How about this:

Translunar injection delta v = 3.25 km/sec

Delta v to L2 = 3.43 km/sec

Delta v back to Earth = 0.34 km/sec

Total delta v = 3.77 km/sec

So maybe if they could coax a few hundred extra m/sec out of it, they could visit L2, loiter for a little while, and then head back. That would be a true first possibly doable with what they've already got.....

Particularly if the Russians leave behind a communications satellite at EML2.  Currently spacecraft and surface rovers on the far-side of the Moon cannot contact Earth.  This would count as two firsts.

Russians have difficulty building comsats which can survive *in LEO* for more than a few years. Their electronics quality and expertise are still pathetic. They launched about as many Glonass sats as US launched GPS ones, but Glonass is not complete even now, because their sats die like flies.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #79 on: 04/14/2011 10:10 am »
President Medvedev visits Jaroslav Air Defence Academy. Preparations.

http://fishki.net/comment.php?id=86542

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #80 on: 04/14/2011 01:04 pm »
President Medvedev visits Jaroslav Air Defence Academy. Preparations.

http://fishki.net/comment.php?id=86542

Are they doing what I think they're doing? Hanging a canvas over the crumbling building and calling it a repair? This is something I'd expect from Wile E coyote :D
^^ Warning! Contains opinions. ^^ 

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #81 on: 04/14/2011 02:17 pm »
Never said anything about Soyuz keeping it's orbital module.
How long do you expect your crew to spend in just a DM ? Even the Zond swingby would have been pretty rough. Soyuz is cozy even with the BO.

If you do pull it off, it's still just a short duration stunt that isn't a useful stepping stone to an actual exploration.

The discussion is on technical capability, not on comfort or long duration.  The statement was made that the Russians have no capability, which is false.  They do have the capability for a single launch lunar mission.  If it is a useful mission is another matter.  You are correct, it would be a stunt, not a practical mission.  A practical mission would be a two step mission, launching first a large hypergolic stage.  Then you launch your standard Soyuz, which docks with it.  Once docked, the stage ignites, sending your much larger, more practical mission on its way.

If the contention is that the Proton can send a Zond around the Moon today, that is true.   However, the Lunar Express architecture described above would make a much safer and more comfortable ride.

Still, none of this has anything to do with the misleading title of this thread, which makes an unproven assertion.

« Last Edit: 04/14/2011 02:18 pm by Danderman »

Offline Warren Platts

the misleading title of this thread, which makes an unproven assertion.

Hey, don't blame me: here is the exact Reuters headline:

Russia plans moon base, Mars mission: Promise made 50 years after Gagarin's voyage

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Russia+plans+moon+base+Mars+mission/4580202/story.html#ixzz1JVWZAt2E
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Offline go4mars

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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #84 on: 03/14/2012 04:30 pm »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9141416/Russia-to-finally-send-man-to-the-Moon.html

Another Russian moon plan (or the same one?).

Here's all you need to see in the article to know that its a non-starter:

"Yury Karash, a corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Cosmonautics, said"

In other words, Some Guy in Russia wants to go to the Moon.

Offline deaville

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #85 on: 03/14/2012 07:45 pm »
The link to the Daily Telegraph site has been mentioned already. However, the web page does not include the photos that appear on page 17 in the actual newspaper.

Included in the four shown is one of Aldrin with the caption "... lunar race won by Aldrin's team." So, perhaps the LM pilot was the most important member of the crew for the lunar landing flights.  :)
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until they speak.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #86 on: 04/10/2014 06:56 pm »
I heard about this on the radio this morning:


Russia plans moon base, Mars mission: Promise made 50 years after Gagarin's voyage

Quote
Russia has announced that it intends to build a base on the moon within 20 years, which it plans to use as a staging post for a manned mission to Mars.
 
The promise was made as Prime Minister Vladimir Putin chaired a meeting on Russia's space program just days ahead of the 50th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin becoming the first human in space.
 
The Kremlin is using Tuesday's anniversary to boost patriotic sentiment and briefing documents handed out before the Putin's meeting showed it is determined to restore the nation's space-program to its Soviet-era glory.
 
"Above all, we are talking about flights to the moon and the creation of a base close to its north pole where there is likely to be a source of water," the briefing document said. ...

Lev Zelyony, director of Russia's Space Research Institute, said it should first focus on the moon, predicting a new space race because of the recent discovery of water there. "Where there are resources, there is always competition."
(my emphasis)

This is from Prime Minister Putin himself.

I keep tellin' ya: if we keep snoozing, we're going to finish in 2nd (or 3rd) place....

I am bumping this for the benefit of anyone who believes anything that Russian politicians say on Cosmonautics  Day.


Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #87 on: 04/21/2014 06:05 am »
Another Moon base announcement.

http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Russian_Federal_Space_Agency_is_elaborating_Moon_exploration_program_999.html

http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Russia_plans_to_get_a_foothold_in_the_Moon_999.html

Here's an interesting quote from Dmitry Rogozin in an article to be published by the government daily Rossiiskaya Gazeta on 18 April.

"The moon is not an intermediate point in the [space] race, it is a separate, even a self-contained goal. It would hardly be rational to make some ten or twenty flights to the moon, and then wind it all up and fly to the Mars or some asteroids. This process has the beginning, but has no end: we are going to come to the moon forever."
« Last Edit: 04/21/2014 06:10 am by Steven Pietrobon »
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #88 on: 04/21/2014 08:45 am »
They can announce all they want when protons stop blowing up I will start believing it.
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Offline Mader Levap

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #89 on: 04/21/2014 08:55 am »
Quote from: Dmitry Rogozin
The moon is not an intermediate point in the [space] race, it is a separate, even a self-contained goal. It would hardly be rational to make some ten or twenty flights to the moon, and then wind it all up and fly to the Mars or some asteroids. This process has the beginning, but has no end: we are going to come to the moon forever.
He is right, but so what? Putin is too busy resurrecting Soviet Union, and no one else in Russia would be able to make this kind of political decision to finance Moon base.
Be successful.  Then tell the haters to (BLEEP) off. - deruch
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Offline fregate

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #90 on: 04/21/2014 01:16 pm »
I am bumping this for the benefit of anyone who believes anything that Russian politicians say on Cosmonautics  Day.
Agreed, but please note that there are two major space-related festivity seasons in Russia - 4th of October (Sputnik launch date) as well as 12th of April (Cosmonautics Day, Yuri Gagarin spaceflight date).   
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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #91 on: 04/22/2014 03:25 pm »
Quote from: Dmitry Rogozin
The moon is not an intermediate point in the [space] race, it is a separate, even a self-contained goal. It would hardly be rational to make some ten or twenty flights to the moon, and then wind it all up and fly to the Mars or some asteroids. This process has the beginning, but has no end: we are going to come to the moon forever.
He is right, but so what? Putin is too busy resurrecting Soviet Union, and no one else in Russia would be able to make this kind of political decision to finance Moon base.

After Putin's conquests are over he has to reign .....what better propaganda but to bring the people together for a trip to the moon.   It's old Soviet doctrine it will happen.
« Last Edit: 04/22/2014 04:28 pm by Prober »
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #92 on: 04/29/2014 07:25 pm »
Just to inject a note of reality here, within the last year, Roskosmos changed its strategic plan to push back the first lunar mission 10 years.

Offline Jim

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #93 on: 04/29/2014 07:48 pm »
I heard about this on the radio this morning:


Russia plans moon base, Mars mission: Promise made 50 years after Gagarin's voyage

Quote
Russia has announced that it intends to build a base on the moon within 20 years, which it plans to use as a staging post for a manned mission to Mars.
 
The promise was made as Prime Minister Vladimir Putin chaired a meeting on Russia's space program just days ahead of the 50th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin becoming the first human in space.
 
The Kremlin is using Tuesday's anniversary to boost patriotic sentiment and briefing documents handed out before the Putin's meeting showed it is determined to restore the nation's space-program to its Soviet-era glory.
 
"Above all, we are talking about flights to the moon and the creation of a base close to its north pole where there is likely to be a source of water," the briefing document said. ...

Lev Zelyony, director of Russia's Space Research Institute, said it should first focus on the moon, predicting a new space race because of the recent discovery of water there. "Where there are resources, there is always competition."
(my emphasis)

This is from Prime Minister Putin himself.

I keep tellin' ya: if we keep snoozing, we're going to finish in 2nd (or 3rd) place....

Yeh, how is that going for you?

Offline Prober

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #94 on: 05/03/2014 05:45 pm »
Race to the red planet: Russia says YES to building super-rocket that will rival Nasa's designs in hopes of getting to Mars by 2030

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2617054/Race-red-planet-Russia-says-YES-building-super-rocket-rival-Nasas-designs-hopes-getting-Mars-2030.html#ixzz30fwfttUh

"Construction of the first stage of Russia's super-rocket - capable of lifting 80 tonnes - is already underway, according to Roscosmos chief Oleg Ostapenko."

And from the Man in the news:  It isn't just the red planet that Russia is planning to conquer. Earlier this month, deputy premier Dmitry Rogozin said: 'We are coming to the moon forever.'
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Offline francesco nicoli

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #95 on: 05/03/2014 06:22 pm »
gas and oil prices are depressed ATM and Russia is losing its biggest customer (EU), so no mirabolant space projects for a while.... Putin will be too busy in buying weaponry to invest in anything else. Moreover, if US and EU get some degree of human spaceflight independently (which looks done for US from 2017 onwards, and possibly for EU from 2025 onwards) a big financing source for russian space programs disappear.....
Russia is not interested in science, has no private business to carry out private space investment, and classical gvt customers are trying to get out of it....... so I guess LOT of Kremlin's sponsored activity (military first of all) will be needed to keep the Russin space agency to the current activity levels, let alone increase them....

Offline Danderman

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #96 on: 05/03/2014 06:26 pm »

"Construction of the first stage of Russia's super-rocket - capable of lifting 80 tonnes - is already underway, according to Roscosmos chief Oleg Ostapenko."

 :o

And from the Man in the news:  It isn't just the red planet that Russia is planning to conquer. Earlier this month, deputy premier Dmitry Rogozin said: 'We are coming to the moon forever.'

 ::)
« Last Edit: 05/03/2014 06:27 pm by Danderman »

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #97 on: 05/03/2014 06:49 pm »
The Russians do a lot of very positive announcing that never equates to anything ever actually happening.  ISTR very definite announcements that Klipper was under construction, that a Russian manned Mars spacecraft had been approved and crews were training for the mission, on and on...

With the Russians, at this point I believe a given mission will occur not just once it's launched, but (in the case of BLEO stuff) when it successfully burns out of LEO.

-Doug (with my shield, not yet upon it)
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #98 on: 05/03/2014 08:16 pm »
gas and oil prices are depressed ATM and Russia is losing its biggest customer (EU), so no mirabolant space projects for a while.... Putin will be too busy in buying weaponry to invest in anything else. Moreover, if US and EU get some degree of human spaceflight independently (which looks done for US from 2017 onwards, and possibly for EU from 2025 onwards) a big financing source for russian space programs disappear.....
Russia is not interested in science, has no private business to carry out private space investment, and classical gvt customers are trying to get out of it....... so I guess LOT of Kremlin's sponsored activity (military first of all) will be needed to keep the Russin space agency to the current activity levels, let alone increase them....

Politicians are like teenagers - they spend until the bank bounces the cheques.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #99 on: 05/04/2014 12:43 am »
Politicians are like teenagers - they spend until the bank bounces the cheques.

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."--P. J. O'Rourke

Offline Prober

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #100 on: 05/04/2014 04:03 pm »
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20140504/1006479505.html

This decent graphic comes from the link above.   
Doesn't seem to be much of a wall between Military and Science?

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Offline Prober

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #101 on: 05/05/2014 06:17 am »
This article is a wild ride.....

Why Crushing Russia's Space Ambitions Could Hurt Russia The Most

Read more: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/05/04/to-defend-ukraine-the-world-should-hit-russia-wher.aspx#ixzz30or2heT9

Wild and wonder where the info comes from.
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: Russian Moon Base Announced on Gagarin's 50th Anniversary
« Reply #102 on: 05/05/2014 02:13 pm »
>
Hydrocarbon prices--for liquid petroleum--are only going to increase. If Saudi Arabia goes down in flames, Russia will be the world's biggest oil exporter.

Uh, no. That would be the US.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-12/u-s-nears-energy-independence-by-2035-on-shale-boom-iea-says.html

Quote
The U.S. will surpass Russia and Saudi Arabia as the world’s top oil producer by 2015, and be close to energy self-sufficiency in the next two decades, amid booming output from shale formations, the IEA said.
>
DM

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