Author Topic: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread  (Read 1026444 times)

Offline Star One

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1300 on: 12/30/2014 08:48 am »
Is it too much of a reach to suggest that at one in their early evolution that Mars & Earth were identical in their potential for life to evolve on them?

Online Bob Shaw

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1301 on: 12/30/2014 02:45 pm »
Yes.

They were always different (Mars has no tides, with all that implies about organisms suffering natural selection, and a host of other differences, too).

The question really boils down to the *similarities*, of which there are many - were they similar enough?

Offline Star One

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1302 on: 12/30/2014 04:33 pm »
In relation to early life it would be interesting to see if we could pin down exactly when plate tectonics got started on Earth & if a similar process ever existed on Mars at a similar point in time.
« Last Edit: 12/30/2014 04:34 pm by Star One »

Offline Torbjorn Larsson, OM

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1303 on: 12/31/2014 01:52 am »
Glad to see Noffke's paper discussed! There is some slight and cautious blog activity out there...

I'm not as conversant with stromatolites as Dalhousie (astrobiology a recent hobby). But if some people refuse to see all stromatolites as bigenic the microbialites are much more testable since there isn't any abiotic similars (according to Noffke). And besides the 3 macrosignatures (morphology, association and succession) she lists 9 microsignatures that are checked (for confirmation).

Since Earth geology is much more complex (~4000 vs ~1000 minerals according to Hazen), the final item on Noffke's diagnostic list, differentiation between biotic and abiotic signatures should morally be quick. Perhaps the rovers together has massed enough material to check that point.

Ideally, we really want some nice, well-adapted RNA organisms or their traces, even if the DNA guys ate them later - not a wholly unlikely outcome, either! Would fossil metabolites of RNA organisms demonstrate different chirality to DNA critters (eg perhaps none at all), and would these perhaps be detectable? That would be a serious result if discovered! It might even be worth looking at Pre-Cambrian rocks on Earth (and, as I've oft repeated, on the Moon when we eventually start to strip mine it).

If it is DNA based, then the best we can hope for is the date of a last common ancestor, and as crust material flows back and forth across the Inner Solar System then that might not help.

I would claim that the situation is reversed.

If the emerging thermodynamics of replicators is correct, the NET is driven by replication (so you don't dissociate as fast as you replicate) and exponential growth (so evolution can happen). That puts severe constraints on early biological takeover. RNA is the only known polymer that can make the replicator bound with early inefficient metabolic NET engines (electron bifurcators). And it in turn is chemically constrained to use 4 bases out of a very limited set, to balance replication vs enzymatic efficiency.

On the other hand, RNA cells are not necessarily chirally constrained, selfish ribozymes that co-evolve to replicate the opposite chirality is smaller and more efficient than a monochiral cell. It is first with the evolution of protein translation that chiral symmetry has to be broken.

The chemical constraints are loosened then replication and translation separates. There are many potential alternatives to DNA, but it is a simple enough modification of RNA so quite likely.

But here is the kicker, independent of above discussed chemical constraint: we can trace ancestry through phylogenies all the way to the DNA LUCA. (And in the case of tRNA and the rRNA preserved core back to the RNA UCA lineage.) We can see differences between ancestors of genes and easily distinguish between different roots in DNA (or analog) cells.

Offline Torbjorn Larsson, OM

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1304 on: 12/31/2014 02:18 am »
Is it too much of a reach to suggest that at one in their early evolution that Mars & Earth were identical in their potential for life to evolve on them?

I don't think so. In many ways they were alike. The main differences was minor:

- Mars aggregated within ~ 1 million years*, while Earth & Moon coalesced after ~ 100 million years when Tellus and Theia collided.

- Earth global ocean at 4.4 billion year was ~ 5 km deep in latest estimates, while if Mars global ocean (if it existed) was a mere 0.5 km or so. Seems Curiosity can confirm a later northern ocean, or at least a vast amount of crater lakes, any of which would be enough for life emergence. If the lake it sees have unbroken, not dried up, sediments, it is longlived and needed a humid atmosphere for that.

Especially for the geology that life most likely descend from, submarine hydrothermal systems, these bodies were very much alike. (And so likely are Europa.)

* It used to be 3-4 million years as estimate, but recent observations indicates planets are very much formed already within 1 million years.

Tidbits:

- Early Earth plate tectonics were more convection and so called sagduction than the subduction we recognize today. The earliest continents were assembled out of island arc segments that arose out of ocean plates subduction, and are at most 4 billion years old. (The non-oceanic-crust Isua rocks dates up to 4.0 billion years, the oceanic-crust Isua rocks dates to 4.2 billion years AFAIK.)

People have started to claim that life arose at ~ 4.4 billion years as we know we had an ocean, and the archaea-bacteria split prefers to be dated at 4 billion years. That is, life got started before plate tectonics as we know it.

Mars likely had very little of anything, its crust solidified fast.

- I don't see how tides would affect evolution at large as it started out in the deep. Except that an absence would have delayed the advance to land a minute bit. (More available nutrients as detritus in a tidal zone.)

It affected particulars of diversity, certainly. But now we are talking complex multicellulars that Mars never evolved (if it had life) - no oxygen.
« Last Edit: 12/31/2014 02:29 am by Torbjorn Larsson, OM »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1305 on: 12/31/2014 03:13 am »
If the chemical basis is the same, it *can* be contamination, but still might not be, inasmuch as life chemistry might well reinvent the wheel in all sorts of places. Ideally, we really want some nice, well-adapted RNA organisms or their traces, even if the DNA guys ate them later - not a wholly unlikely outcome, either! Would fossil metabolites of RNA organisms demonstrate different chirality to DNA critters (eg perhaps none at all), and would these perhaps be detectable? That would be a serious result if discovered! It might even be worth looking at Pre-Cambrian rocks on Earth (and, as I've oft repeated, on the Moon when we eventually start to strip mine it).

Nucleic acids don’t survive long after death geologically speaking.  We will only find it in living or recently living material.  No chance of indigenous material in Precambrian rocks or in lunar samples.


Quote
If it is DNA based, then the best we can hope for is the date of a last common ancestor, and as crust material flows back and forth across the Inner Solar System then that might not help.

Meteoritic transfers are rare, so any non anthropogenic transfer will show last contact the order of several My if not much earlier.  Naturally occurring transfer from early to Mars would still be a major discovery.

Quote
As for forward contamination, the Soviet landers (yes, plural - just because we only have an idea of what happened to one of them doesn't mean at least one of the others didn't land, even if in (ahem) a disassembled condition) and parachutes don't appear to have been sterilised; efforts were made with Viking, but not so much with subsequent US landers, deliberate or not. In some respects, a visit to the Mars-3 site by a nice, sterile sample-return vehicle might be seriously interesting, and might even prove that there is life on Earth, and even (briefly) on Mars...

Components of Russian landers were sterilised and then assembled in clean rooms, which makes them cleaner than any US mission since Viking.


Quote
We do already have an example of a life-bearing object suffering a meteoric-like entry into a planetary atmosphere, and the inhabitants of said object not only surviving, but breeding: the famous Columbia worms. OK, we're not talking about lengthy exposure to space conditions, but we've already seen the unexpected survival of reasonably advanced organisms, which might make it even more likely that tougher varmints could do their thing!

Don’t think the Columbia nematodes are particularly relevant.  They were much better protected inside the spacecraft structure than microbes travelling to Mars and, apart from a few minutes falling through the upper atmosphere, were never in an inhospitable environment. 

This is very different to any microbes going to Mars, which have to survive the trip there and a very hostile surface.  The latest work indicates that there are no confirmed locations on Mars where terrestrial microbes could thrive, although some slope sites remain a possibility.  See Rummel http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/ast.2014.1227?journalCode=ast
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1306 on: 12/31/2014 03:29 am »
Glad to see Noffke's paper discussed! There is some slight and cautious blog activity out there...

I'm not as conversant with stromatolites as Dalhousie (astrobiology a recent hobby). But if some people refuse to see all stromatolites as bigenic the microbialites are much more testable since there isn't any abiotic similars (according to Noffke). And besides the 3 macrosignatures (morphology, association and succession) she lists 9 microsignatures that are checked (for confirmation).

I would say that stromatolites are much easier to recognise, MISS are quite subtle in non-carbonate lithologies.   if people quibble over Archean stroms they will certainly reject supposed MISS.

Quote
Since Earth geology is much more complex (~4000 vs ~1000 minerals according to Hazen), the final item on Noffke's diagnostic list, differentiation between biotic and abiotic signatures should morally be quick. Perhaps the rovers together has massed enough material to check that point.

Hazen's hypothesis is interesting but hard to test.

The detailed work described by Noffke to demonstrate biogenicity (equally applicable to the more easily recognised stromatolites) could only be done on returned samples, and probably would require a great many of them, e.g. from a crewed mission.

To date only a three mineralogy results have been published by the Curiosity team, two from the Yellowknife Bay area.  Unlike the MERs, Curiosity lacks a non-contact way of determining mineralogy.  It can only determine mineralogy on drilled samples which are processed through the CheMin instrument.  Because of technical issues this has rarely been used (five times so far in total).

Quote
If the emerging thermodynamics of replicators is correct, the NET is driven by replication (so you don't dissociate as fast as you replicate) and exponential growth (so evolution can happen). That puts severe constraints on early biological takeover. RNA is the only known polymer that can make the replicator bound with early inefficient metabolic NET engines (electron bifurcators). And it in turn is chemically constrained to use 4 bases out of a very limited set, to balance replication vs enzymatic efficiency.

On the other hand, RNA cells are not necessarily chirally constrained, selfish ribozymes that co-evolve to replicate the opposite chirality is smaller and more efficient than a monochiral cell. It is first with the evolution of protein translation that chiral symmetry has to be broken.

The chemical constraints are loosened then replication and translation separates. There are many potential alternatives to DNA, but it is a simple enough modification of RNA so quite likely.

But here is the kicker, independent of above discussed chemical constraint: we can trace ancestry through phylogenies all the way to the DNA LUCA. (And in the case of tRNA and the rRNA preserved core back to the RNA UCA lineage.) We can see differences between ancestors of genes and easily distinguish between different roots in DNA (or analog) cells.

Interesting update, thanks.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1307 on: 12/31/2014 03:42 am »
Since Noffke mentioned Carbla Point at Shark Bay, I can't resist some photos of microbial mats and stroms from the next point south, Goat Point (Carbla is even better but I have not been back with a digital camera).  For the non-geologists, stromatolites are domes, mats are flat (more or less).

If you want to read more about this marvellous world heritage area, the definitive report can be downloaded from http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/17940.aspx#19545 (free)

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Online robertross

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1308 on: 12/31/2014 11:24 am »
Please remember this is an update thread

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1309 on: 12/31/2014 10:06 pm »
Back to sleep then. 
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Online robertross

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1310 on: 01/01/2015 06:40 pm »
Back to sleep then. 

The thread created for the MSL feature article would be just as appropriate a thread for much of the discussioon here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36444.0

Online robertross

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1311 on: 01/14/2015 10:28 pm »
01.14.2015
Crystal-Rich Rock 'Mojave' is Next Mars Drill Target

A rock target where NASA's Curiosity Mars rover is using its sample-collection drill this week may have a salty story to tell.
This target, called "Mojave," displays copious slender features, slightly smaller than grains of rice, that appear to be mineral crystals. A chance to learn their composition prompted the Curiosity science team to choose Mojave as the next rock-drilling target for the 29-month-old mission investigating Mars' Gale Crater. The features might be a salt mineral left behind when lakewater evaporated.
This week, Curiosity is beginning a "mini-drill" test to assess the rock's suitability for deeper drilling, which collects a sample for onboard laboratory analysis.

A weeklong pause in science operations to install a new version of rover flight software is scheduled to begin early next week, possibly before completion of the drilling and sample delivery. This is the fourth new version of the onboard software since the rover's August 2012 landing.

The Mojave drilling begins Curiosity's third round of investigating the basal layer of Mount Sharp exposed at an area called "Pahrump Hills." In the first round, the rover drove about 360 feet (110 meters) and scouted sites ranging about 30 feet (9 meters) in elevation. Then it followed a similar path, investigating selected sites in more detail. That second pass included inspection of Mojave in November 2014 with the dust-removal brush, close-up camera and Alpha Particle X-Ray Spectrometer on the rover's arm. The results put Mojave at the head of the list of targets for the rover's most intensive inspection, using laboratory instruments that ingest powdered rock collected by the drill.

"The crystal shapes are apparent in the earlier images of Mojave, but we don't know what they represent," said Curiosity Project Scientist Ashwin Vasavada at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California. "We're hoping that mineral identifications we get from the rover's laboratory will shed more light than we got from just the images and bulk chemistry."

Curiosity's Chemistry and Mineralogy instrument, or CheMin, can identify specific minerals in rock powder from a drilled sample. Analysis of the drill hole and drill tailings may also reveal whether the crystals are only at the surface, like a salty crust, or are also deeper in the rock.

"There could be a fairly involved story here," Vasavada said. "Are they salt crystals left from a drying lake? Or are they more pervasive through the rock, formed by fluids moving through the rock? In either case, a later fluid may have removed or replaced the original minerals with something else."

Curiosity's work at Pahrump Hills may include drilling one or more additional rocks before heading to higher layers of Mount Sharp.

Next week's planned software revision, like the mission's earlier ones, adds protections against vulnerabilities identified in rover testbed activities on Earth. It also adds improvements to make planning drives more efficient.

"The files have already been uplinked and are sitting in the rover's file system to be ready for the installation," said JPL's Danny Lam, the deputy engineering operations chief leading the upgrade process.

One change in the new software is to enable use of the rover's gyroscope-containing "inertial measurement unit" at the same time as the rover's drill, for better capability to sense slippage of the rover during a drilling operation. Another is a set of improvements to the rover's ability to autonously identify and drive in good terrain.

NASA's Mars Science Laboratory Project is using Curiosity to assess ancient habitable environments and major changes in Martian environmental conditions. JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, built the rover and manages the project for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington.

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1771

Online edkyle99

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1312 on: 01/22/2015 01:54 pm »
Nice summary of recent activity.  "Whale Rock" is interesting, among other things, and a dirtier rover selfie.
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2015/01211113-curiosity-update-sols-814.html

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 01/23/2015 04:08 am by edkyle99 »

Offline hop

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1313 on: 01/24/2015 08:05 pm »
There was a "perspective" by Kevin Zahnle in Science on the methane results http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6220/370.short

Unfortunately does not seem to be available outside the paywall.

Offline hop

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1314 on: 01/31/2015 11:33 pm »
From earlier discussion of isotope ratios:
One open question from those is seasonal variation. I'd expect the MSL team to publish atmosphere results for a full Mars year (or more) at some point, but if they have I wasn't able to find it.

An LPSC abstract says they do indeed see seasonal variation:
http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2015/pdf/3005.pdf

Quote
Results of our analyses reveal variations in both 𝛿18O and 𝛿13C that suggest a seasonal trend in the isotopic composition of atmospheric CO2. We will examine this finding particularly in the context of isotopic fractionation expected during CO2 condensation and sublimation cycles [15] and discuss implications for the martian atmosphere.

It also appears part of the reason it took so long is related to MTBSTFA again:
Quote
Interferences at m/z 12 and 13 have been more problematic in atmospheric experiments performed since SAM began analyzing solid samples, which introduced products of derivatization reagent N-methyl-N-(tert-butyldimethylsilyl)-trifluoro-acetamide (MTBSTFA) into the gas manifold

There's a whole session dedicated to Curiosity of course:
http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2015/pdf/sess102.pdf

Full program http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2015/

Offline catdlr

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1315 on: 02/04/2015 06:12 pm »
Curiosity Rover at 'Pahrump Hills'

http://www.nasa.gov/jpl/mro/pia19114/#.VNJup53F-kE

Photo Credit: JPL
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Offline hop

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1316 on: 03/05/2015 03:16 am »
Short circuit
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1783
Quote
NASA's Curiosity Mars rover is expected to remain stationary for several days of engineering analysis following an onboard fault-protection action on Feb. 27 that halted a process of transferring sample material between devices on the rover's robotic arm.

Telemetry received from the rover indicated that a transient short circuit occurred and the vehicle followed its programmed response, stopping the arm activity underway at the time of the irregularity in the electric current.

Update:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4504
Quote
Managers of NASA's Curiosity Mars rover mission expect to approve resumption of rover arm movements as early as next week while continuing analysis of what appears to be an intermittent short circuit in the drill.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2015 08:22 pm by hop »

Online robertross

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1317 on: 03/12/2015 09:58 pm »
03.12.2015
Rover Arm Delivers Rock Powder Sample

MARS SCIENCE LABORATORY MISSION STATUS REPORT

NASA's Curiosity Mars rover used its robotic arm Wednesday, March 11, to sieve and deliver a rock-powder sample to an onboard instrument. The sample was collected last month before the team temporarily suspended rover arm movement pending analysis of a short circuit.

The Chemistry and Mineralogy (CheMin) analytical instrument inside the rover received the sample powder. This sample comes from a rock target called "Telegraph Peak," the third target drilled during about six months of investigating the "Pahrump Hills" outcrop on Mount Sharp. With this delivery completed, the rover team plans to drive Curiosity away from Pahrump Hills in coming days.

"That precious Telegraph Peak sample had been sitting in the arm, so tantalizingly close, for two weeks. We are really excited to get it delivered for analysis," said Curiosity Project Scientist Ashwin Vasavada of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California.

The rover experienced a short circuit on Feb. 27 while using percussion action in its drill to shake sample powder from the drill into a sample-processing device on the arm. Subsequent testing at JPL and on Curiosity has identified the likely cause as a transient short in the motor for the drill's percussion action. During several tests on the rover in the past 10 days, the short was reproduced only one time -- on March 5. It lasted less than one one-hundredth of a second and did not stop the motor. Ongoing analysis will help the rover team develop guidelines for best use of the drill at future rock targets.

The rover's path toward higher layers of Mount Sharp will take it first through a valley called "Artist's Drive," heading southwestward from Pahrump Hills. The sample-processing device on the arm is carrying Telegraph Peak sample material at the start of the drive, for later delivery into the Sample Analysis at Mars (SAM) suite of instruments. The delivery will occur after SAM prepares for receiving the sample.

Curiosity's drill has used a combination of rotary and percussion action to collect samples from six rock targets since the rover landed inside Gale Crater in 2012. The first sampled rock, "John Klein," in the Yellowknife Bay area near the landing site, provided evidence for meeting the mission's primary science goal. Analysis of that sample showed that early Mars offered environmental conditions favorable for microbial life, including the key elemental ingredients for life and a chemical energy source such as used by some microbes on Earth. In the layers of lower Mount Sharp, the mission is pursuing evidence about how early Mars environments evolved from wetter to drier conditions.

http://mars.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1787

Offline bolun

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1318 on: 03/20/2015 03:13 pm »
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31988540

Quote
A fatty acid might be among organic molecules discovered on Mars by Nasa's Curiosity rover.

However, it's not possible at this stage to determine whether the compound has a biological or non-biological origin.

And contamination could still be responsible for the finding.

The results come from Curiosity's SAM instrument, and were presented at the 46th Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (LPSC) in Texas.

Offline Star One

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Re: LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread
« Reply #1319 on: 03/20/2015 05:26 pm »
Interesting but it's a real shame that the instrument is suffering from an ongoing contamination issue. Which likely means that any results produced are unfortunately going to be subject of dispute.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2015 07:38 pm by Star One »

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