Author Topic: SLS manifest options aim for Phobos prior to 2039 Mars landing  (Read 55715 times)

Offline MP99


2. Since most launches are cargo anyway, and Orion is only going to HLO, would it make sense to transfer Orion to FH, make SLS cargo only, and delete EDS on SLS? Perhaps Dragon V2 on FH should replace Orion altogether; my WAG is FH could place manned Dragon in this orbit.

The FH doesn't have the performance to send the Orion Capsule with SM to a HLO.

I'm wondering how close a disposable FH with super-cyro prop and cross-feed could come to putting a DragonV2 in that orbit.

Elon Musk (elonmusk):
In expendable mode, Falcon Heavy can send a fully loaded Dragon to Mars or a light Dragon to Jupiter's moons. Europa mission wd be cool.

http://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/643538701981716481

TMI is much more dV than TLI.

Cheers, Martin

Offline Jim

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I think that is what a lot of people (myself included) is hoping for once the current administration leaves office.

Not going to happen.  It is not a priority.

Offline MP99

Anyway, Musk will have astronauts on Mars long before NASA even flies by an asteroid.

You seem to be assuming that Musk is going to pay for his own astronauts to Mars. He has never indicated that. And in fact if you look at what he has said, he has always indicated an intent to provide capability that somebody else is going to pay at least part of the cost. The most he's talked about is partnerships. NASA would have to be a major partner in that.

So abandon the idea that Elon Musk is funding his own human mission to Mars and will save us all.

Yup. Shame, but yup.

ISTM this is a common theme across commercial HSF projects. Many of them seem to think that other projects have funding, and those might spend a bunch of money buying services from them. Then reality sets in, and it becomes clear that none have funding and their last chance is that NASA might realise that they're cheaper than Shuttle, or SLS/Orion, or whatever - which is barmy.

One advantage to SpaceX - Elon may have the ear of some billionaire to help with funding.



How to break the logjam? Maybe if costs come down enough, someone will feel that the risks are low enough to fund projects that might kick-start an industry - basically, find some commercial project that justifies people in orbit to support it.

Even that is a long way from supporting a Mars mission, other than general cost reduction through increasing flight rate.

Cheers, Martin

Offline redliox

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NASA have proposed ISRU for Mars surface missions but there is nothing about ISRU in Phobo missions.

Being able to extract oxygen from Phobos especially for rocket fuel would dramatically reduce mission costs.

As much as I'd approve ISRU on the Martian moons...the problem is we don't have a clue what they're truly made of.  The best data we have comes chiefly from Mars Express since it's the only spacecraft that bothered to make decent visits of Phobos; they still consult Mariner 9's spectroscopic data to show just how data-poor we are.  They're dry on the surface, lightweight, and probably porous; beyond that it's anyone's guess.

Point being, until something lands on either moon, "eats" the dirt to "taste" what they're made of, there's no way to plan what kind of ISRU to use.

The only thing that might change things to warrant ISRU would be a dedicated probe visiting Phobos/Deimos, and on top of that we'd further assume it finds something easy to process rich in water or hydrogen.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline A_M_Swallow

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{snip}
Point being, until something lands on either moon, "eats" the dirt to "taste" what they're made of, there's no way to plan what kind of ISRU to use.

The only thing that might change things to warrant ISRU would be a dedicated probe visiting Phobos/Deimos, and on top of that we'd further assume it finds something easy to process rich in water or hydrogen.

If we are making propellent then an oxygen compound will do. One of the solar thermal processors being investigated for the Moon could be adapted for Phobos. The solar collectors would have to be about twice the size.
http://www.solarthermalworld.org/sites/gstec/files/story/2015-05-24/vg09-268.pdf

Carbon compounds on Phobos could be converted to something flammable like methane.

Offline TrevorMonty

{snip}
Point being, until something lands on either moon, "eats" the dirt to "taste" what they're made of, there's no way to plan what kind of ISRU to use.

The only thing that might change things to warrant ISRU would be a dedicated probe visiting Phobos/Deimos, and on top of that we'd further assume it finds something easy to process rich in water or hydrogen.

If we are making propellent then an oxygen compound will do. One of the solar thermal processors being investigated for the Moon could be adapted for Phobos. The solar collectors would have to be about twice the size.
http://www.solarthermalworld.org/sites/gstec/files/story/2015-05-24/vg09-268.pdf

Carbon compounds on Phobos could be converted to something flammable like methane.
Thanks for the paper.
I knew about the oxygen extraction process but not how they planned to create the solar concentrator.

Electrolysis extracts oxygen from water and hydrogen is recycled. In theory only a small amount of hydrogen is required.
« Last Edit: 09/28/2015 02:07 am by TrevorMonty »

Offline TrevorMonty

Phobos or Deimos LOX would significantly lower the cost of accessing Mars surface. A reusable LOX/LH Mars lander eg 20t Xeus lander is only just able to do a round trip form Mars surface to low Mars orbit (LMO) then back to surface on full tank using propulsive reentry/landing. With the lander lifting LH from Mars surface and having its LOX refueled in orbit form Phobos LOX, it can deliver 7-8t LH to LMO fuel depot.

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