Author Topic: Never-Flown Titan Variants  (Read 68451 times)

Offline TCizadlo

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #80 on: 08/01/2016 12:10 am »
Mr. Kyle,

I think I have found a reference to the "Titan V" as "Growth Titan IV" in a report entitled "Space Station Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle Utilization" on NTRS ( http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880011804.pdf ). The diagram (showing a LDC Titan with two RSRMs) is on the 18th page of the PDF and gives a height of 265.5 feet, and a LEO payload of 95k lbs.

Offline simonbp

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #81 on: 08/01/2016 04:26 pm »
Mr. Kyle,

I think I have found a reference to the "Titan V" as "Growth Titan IV" in a report entitled "Space Station Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle Utilization" on NTRS ( http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880011804.pdf ). The diagram (showing a LDC Titan with two RSRMs) is on the 18th page of the PDF and gives a height of 265.5 feet, and a LEO payload of 95k lbs.

Cool find. I don't think I've seen the single-SSME mega-Atlas before...

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #82 on: 08/01/2016 05:04 pm »
Mr. Kyle,

I think I have found a reference to the "Titan V" as "Growth Titan IV" in a report entitled "Space Station Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle Utilization" on NTRS ( http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880011804.pdf ). The diagram (showing a LDC Titan with two RSRMs) is on the 18th page of the PDF and gives a height of 265.5 feet, and a LEO payload of 95k lbs.
Good find.  I suspect that this was still a hypergolic propellant LDC Titan, but the twist here, which I haven't seen before, is the use of STS Solid Rocket Boosters.   This would have been in lieu of the five seven-segment boosters needed for "Barbarian". 

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #83 on: 08/02/2016 09:57 am »
I found info about Titan IIIF version

The Titan IIIF is NASA version for Titan IIIM
Not manned rated Launcher, but feature rest of Titan IIIM, upgraded Engine, seven segment booster.

Standart T-IIIF (2 booster two stage)
35000 lbs in 200 nautical mile at 28.5°
36000 lbs in 125 nautical mile at 50.0° 
32000 lbs in 100 nautical mile at 90.0° (MOL mission)

there were study  to use different Upper stages
Transtage, 26% more Payload in equatorial synchronous orbit compare to Titan IIIC
Agena D 10,500  lbs (probes for translunar injection)
Centaur  18,000 lbs (probes for translunar injection)

Source:
Bellcomm. Inc.
Unmanned Lunar Logistic Systems Case 340
Author R, Sehgal

Bellcomm. Inc
Selected Comments on Agena and Titan III Family Stages Case 720
Author C. Bendersky

Bellcomm, Inc.
A Titan IIIM launch Space station program Case 710
Autor E.D. Marion J.A. Schelke



Online ZachS09

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #84 on: 08/07/2016 07:49 pm »
The Titan V design I discussed about a long time ago was on astronautix.com. Trust me; this was not my creation. Here's the link.

http://www.astronautix.com/t/titan5.html
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 07:55 pm by longdrivechampion102 »
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Offline Proponent

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #85 on: 03/07/2017 04:02 pm »
Arcturus and Aldeberan images.

On page 17 of the 28 March 1960 issue of Missiles and Rockets (plutogno provides a link) you'll find an article about the report by Dandridge Cole when Aldeberan was proposed.

Be warned, though, that you can disappear into the M&R archive for hours; it's as bad as NTRS the first time you encounter it!
« Last Edit: 03/07/2017 04:02 pm by Proponent »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #86 on: 03/07/2017 05:41 pm »
Ah, I was wondering why your mug was on my milk carton.
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #87 on: 03/08/2017 06:18 pm »
Arcturus and Aldeberan images.

On page 17 of the 28 March 1960 issue of Missiles and Rockets (plutogno provides a link) you'll find an article about the report by Dandridge Cole when Aldeberan was proposed.

Be warned, though, that you can disappear into the M&R archive for hours; it's as bad as NTRS the first time you encounter it!

It looks to be a quarterly magazine and checking the Jan-Apr 1960 issue I didn't see anything. This is the right link correct? https://archive.org/details/misslesandrockets

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Proponent

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #88 on: 03/08/2017 06:45 pm »
It started as a monthly but from July 1958 was a weekly.  Go to page 707 of the PDF.

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #89 on: 03/08/2017 08:48 pm »
It started as a monthly but from July 1958 was a weekly.  Go to page 707 of the PDF.

Thanks

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #90 on: 07/22/2017 11:12 am »
I have question on The Titan V studies
had Martin Marietta study in 1988 a Titan with cryogenic core stage or not
and this is mix up with cryogenic Titan study from James A. Martin  ?

on several web pages label Titan V as "Ariane 5 like booster" with 2 UA1207 and cryogenic core stage
i could trace that down to Astonautix http://www.astronautix.com/t/titan5.html

Martin Study 1988 as alternative to NLS.
Thrust: 16,533.60 kN (3,716,901 lbf).
Gross mass: 1,138,660 kg (2,510,310 lb).
Height: 72.00 m (236.00 ft). Diameter: 6.00 m (19.60 ft).
it use one engine "PW 1000000 lb LH2" for core stage trust 4,457.100 kN (vac), Isp: 425 sec.
sadly there no reverence were this data came from

Also i found in German aerospace magazine from 1991
a article about 1990s US spaceflight development, with this phrase
"also is manufacture study a Titan 5 with cryogenic core"
Again no reverence what so ever on this.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2017 11:20 am by Michel Van »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #91 on: 07/23/2017 06:08 pm »
I have question on The Titan V studies
had Martin Marietta study in 1988 a Titan with cryogenic core stage or not
and this is mix up with cryogenic Titan study from James A. Martin  ?

on several web pages label Titan V as "Ariane 5 like booster" with 2 UA1207 and cryogenic core stage
i could trace that down to Astonautix http://www.astronautix.com/t/titan5.html

Martin Study 1988 as alternative to NLS.
Thrust: 16,533.60 kN (3,716,901 lbf).
Gross mass: 1,138,660 kg (2,510,310 lb).
Height: 72.00 m (236.00 ft). Diameter: 6.00 m (19.60 ft).
it use one engine "PW 1000000 lb LH2" for core stage trust 4,457.100 kN (vac), Isp: 425 sec.
sadly there no reverence were this data came from

Also i found in German aerospace magazine from 1991
a article about 1990s US spaceflight development, with this phrase
"also is manufacture study a Titan 5 with cryogenic core"
Again no reverence what so ever on this.
This document mentions "Titan V", but it is presented as a number of potential growth options that had been studied by Martin Marietta (and that had not been "sponsored" by the U.S. Air Force).  This tells me that "Titan V" was a placeholder name never really assigned to a specific, seriously considered design and that it was likely aimed at NASA or SDIO rather than the Air Force.  During this post-Challenger period there was a barrage of such studies and proposals (i.e. Barbarian and Jarvis, etc.).
http://ota.fas.org/reports/8826.pdf

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 07/23/2017 06:10 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Citabria

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #92 on: 07/24/2017 07:04 pm »
Von Braun's team actually began contract discussions for "Saturn Titan" with Martin during mid 1959.

Saturn A-1 was proposed with Titan as a second stage: http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturna-1.html

The first Saturns were even built with a 10' diameter interstage structure.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #93 on: 07/24/2017 09:55 pm »
Von Braun's team actually began contract discussions for "Saturn Titan" with Martin during mid 1959.

Saturn A-1 was proposed with Titan as a second stage: http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturna-1.html

The first Saturns were even built with a 10' diameter interstage structure.

I know, I took that photo!  :)

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #94 on: 04/02/2018 06:00 pm »
i got over Scott Lowther his APR Patreon,  a interesting study:

Benefits of ALS Technology to Titan Vehicles (sadly no author or Date named, probably around 1993)

Its about use of Advance Launch System (ALS) technology in Titan launcher Family 
There proposed  use of Titan as testing vehicle for new stuff like the use of composite structures in Titan IV
or new manufacturing procedure like 7- axis robotic weld repair system
next use of modern Avionics electronics tested in Titan, to be use later on ALS

one idea was Cryogenic Titan IV stage II what replaced the Core 2 stage
it resembles the later Centaur-T stage, only larger to 200 inch maxim diameter Lh2 tank and 120 inch Lox tank
the SRMB would have modified Nose cone to deal with new form and Aerodynamics drag during launch
powert by one derivate ALS engine it would provide 50% more payload into space

Another Idea were Liquid booster (LRB)  for Titan IV, sadly there vage if this is based on Titan Hardware.
Its feature 4 engine stage in size of Titan Core 
could be that they use same fuel as Titan Core since 2 tanks volume are equal in LRB
it would increase Payload to +15% compare to SRBM used on Titan IV

finally the Study show time table were Titan IV transform from 1993 to 2000
into ALS with four LBR and Payload 130000 lb. in LEO.
interesting is the 1995~1997 version of Titan that abandon the Storable Fuel in favor of Lox/Methane or hydrogen core.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #95 on: 10/10/2020 07:39 am »
I Look for moment into NRO PDF about MOL program

They study 1966 so called Fat-core Titan to Launch MOL into polar
it's 180 inch diameter core with four and improved engines, that use UA1205 and Titan IIIC second stage.
in growth for more payload, they proposed follow changes:

-Replace Solids to US1207, lengthened first stage, then increase Second stage diameter to 180 inch
-Finally replace the Solids with new one with 156 inch diameter solids to bring 68000 lb. into 80° polar orbit

There is proposal  that match this description, called Titan IIIG a LCD and two to four 156 inch diameter solids.

Source:

Selected Comments on Agena and Titan III Family stages Case 720
Bellcome. Inc.

NRO pdf nr°347
NRO pdf 07-MOL_Titan

Offline mike robel

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #96 on: 10/16/2020 06:38 pm »
I can't believe I missed this thread after all these years.  First rate stuff Ed.

Offline JoeFromRIUSA

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #97 on: 10/17/2020 04:05 pm »
Get busy building, Mike!

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #98 on: 04/05/2021 10:22 pm »
found Martin Marietta corp. study

they mention a Titan IIIF/stretched Transtage

Got someone more info on that Transtage?

Source:
Study of Direct Versus Orbital entry for mars mission
volume III Launch Vehicle Performance and Flight Mechanics
NASA CR-66661
196800223161.pdf

Online ZachS09

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Re: Never-Flown Titan Variants
« Reply #99 on: 04/05/2021 10:51 pm »
found Martin Marietta corp. study

they mention a Titan IIIF/stretched Transtage

Got someone more info on that Transtage?

Source:
Study of Direct Versus Orbital entry for mars mission
volume III Launch Vehicle Performance and Flight Mechanics
NASA CR-66661
196800223161.pdf

I've never heard of a stretched Transtage, but my best guess would be this particular upper stage being 3/4th the size of the Centaur used on the Titan IIIE.

In addition, the Titan IIIF vehicle would comprise two UA-1207 SRMs, the stretched Stage 1 used on Titan 34D, and the regular Titan III Stage 2 with a boattail to accommodate the Centaur Standard Shroud. And the stretched Transtage with its payload would be encapsulated in the CSS.

Note: the Titan IIIF's description above was paraphrased from Space Launch Report's depiction of said rocket.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2021 10:57 pm by ZachS09 »
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Tags: Titan1 Vanguard 
 

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